Cleats at the Nats - FTDR or no?

[Ed Deegan]

Here is something that I would love to have feedback on...

My wife and I were walking to lunch on Thursday (the day we shot), and we spoke to a shooter who was wearing cleats. Appendix 1.F.2 (page 40) clearly states this is not allowed.

The shooter is a member of this forum, is that an FTDR? Before anyone asks, no I will not name names.

Mod's if I have crossed a line and should not have posted this, please let me know...

[ima45dv8]

Here is something that I would love to have feedback on...

My wife and I were walking to lunch on Thursday (the day we shot), and we spoke to a shooter who was wearing cleats. Appendix 1.F.2 (page 40) clearly states this is not allowed.

The shooter is a member of this forum, is that an FTDR? Before anyone asks, no I will not name names.

Mod's if I have crossed a line and should not have posted this, please let me know...

I wouldn't say you crossed a line with that question, but perhaps it deserves it's own thread. This one started out pretty well focused on the "Round Dumping" instances of FTDR's.

=================

ETA: I split this from the other FTDR thread.

[00bullitt]

I think the rules are pretty clear about cleats. Yes.......I feel that that deserves a FTDR and that the shooter remove the cleats. If he/she refuses to remove them then that becomes unsportsmanlike conduct.

I wear cleats for USPSA and hiking shoes or boots for IDPA.

As for a relation to the round dumping rulebeing a FTDR.......the cleats would not be a subjective call. Thats pretty definable to me.

[Bob Hostetter]

I don't agree with the rule prohibiting the wearing of cleats but at least it is clear cut and reasonable to enforce.....................

[Loves2Shoot]

It seems pretty clear on cleats.

I actually bought a new pair or shoes this weekend, and they might look a bit like cleats, but they are trail running shoes. They say trail running shoes on them. I actually kept that in mind when I purchased them, just in case someone might think I was wearing cleat like shoes. You can never be too careful, and I want traction when running around with guns, but I will stay in the rules too.

[kevin c]

Had the shooter shot any stages with the cleats on? Would that be an FTDR per stage shot, or are after the fact penalties not allowed (I guess this might apply to the squad on the round dumping thread as well)?

[uscbigdawg]

I don't shoot IDPA, but the rules are clear. No cleats. Heck, I don't wear cleats much any more in USPSA/IPSC. Hiking/trail shoes are giving as good if not better traction all around especially on those nice plywood decks we shoot on.

Rich

[XRe]

The shooter is a member of this forum, is that an FTDR?

According to some, yes, being a member of this forum is an FTDR...

Frankly, I'm not sure why you felt you had to mention that the person is a member of the forum? Your question, and the resulting answers would be the same regardless. It doesn't matter whether its a hypothetical person, or a real person, member of this forum or not...

[J-Ho]

Does this mean I can't wear my golf shoes anymore?

[GentlemanJim]

OK OK OK.......WHAT THE HECK IS A FTDR????

I dont play this game but its driving me crazy not knowing what the heck you are talking about

Jim

[J-Ho]

OK OK OK.......WHAT THE HECK IS A FTDR????

I dont play this game but its driving me crazy not knowing what the heck you are talking about

Jim

Failure

To

Do

Right

Kind of a catch all for stuff that's real bad. Cheatin' and so on. I don't have the rule book in front of me, but if you almost never see these penalties. It's a 20 sec penalty.

[Buzzdraw]

IDPA Rulebook Pg. 40,

2.Cleats

Cleated shoes designed for specific sports (i.e., football, baseball, golf, etc.) may not be worn.

I do not consider footwear for trail running, hiking, hunting and the like to be "cleats" within the above rule. Footwear listed within the sports are not suitable for all day wear; they are suitable to wear only on the field of competition. Those examples I list are suitable to wear to go shoot a match, then go eat a burger and finally go to the shopping mall. I've done that in my trail running shoes more than once. Bet I would not do that in golf or football shoes.

[Joe4d]

Oh I feel your pain on the acronyms, Lots of people been here a long time and developed their own jargon .You dont see them because Match directors and RO's are afraid to give them for some reason. They think they are being nice. Or people assume because they spent time and money they shouldnt get a penalty when they have clearly broken the rules. We have discussed it here before but the only way to be fair to everyone is to enforce the rules by the book on everyone. The minute you give one shooter an equipment or procedure break you have just penalized everyone that took the time and effort to follow the rules. As a scorekeeper at the Virginia Indoor regional several years ago I gave a FTDR that was overruled by the MD even though it was a clear rule violation. Start position was gun in the IDPA official box, also used to check gun, a competitors gun wouldnt fit because of the extended magazine pad, based on MD directions shooter was allowed to change mags, ok buzz,,,,, bang bang bang reload, shooter reached back grabbed the mag that wouldnt fit reloaded gun continued stage, humm illegal equipment. any way discussed it with MD after the match and asked why penalty was overruled ? no good answer but to his credit we had a staff what went good what went bad meating and hashed alot of it out and fixed it in the future.

I am willing to bet the cleats were noticed and the competitor shot with them and many ro's looked the other way in order to "let him slide" IDPA really needs to clean this type of stuff up, I dont really care one way or the other about some of the rules but they need to have rules, not should's or shouldnt's but wills and wonts, and get the judgement calls out of the scoring. I like the earlier posters idea about foot faults for cover rather than leaving it up to the RO to make a judgement call. There should be no excuse for two shooters to do the same thing but end up with different penalties.

[PDW]

I noted several issues with shooters at the Nationals; cleats, gear visible through the mesh of the concealment garment, competition only equipment, holsters. Some shooters used the very holster pictured in the rule book as specifically not allowed. When I saw a rule violation, I spoke to the shooter first and asked him/her to change equipment, noted it on the score sheet (to track a violation from stage to stage), and advised the MD of the problem. Sometimes just speaking with the shooter was sufficient. I was overturned on one call. The Nationals MD has a difficult job, one that I wouldn't want. Nevertheless, when violators are not disciplined, a bad example is set. 98% of Nationals attendees are very familiar with the rules. They love to test the SOs. Too bad "getting away with it" is sometimes more important than "doing the right thing". Most equipment violations don't really improve the shooter's score, just his perception that it will make a difference.

[prreed10]

At a major match, it should be a FTDR, especially Nationals.

We had a guy show up at our club with cleats - he was a USPSA shooter and it was his first IDPA match. We politely informed him of the rules but still let him shoot without penalty, because he had no other shoes with him.

[Jim Norman]

When pointed out that the cleats were not allowed, the shooter in question removed them. My understanding is that this was his third IDPA match.

On the subject of gear, this is a GAME. Many of us have old knees and also have to be able to walk the next day at work. Why can I wear knee pads under my pants or inserted into the pockets in a pair of 5.11s, but I can't put on a pair for a stage that requires kneeling. This requires the wearing of long pants in 90+ degree weather. I think that sometimes people forget that this is a GAME.

Jim

[kdmoore]

I'm going to disagree that this is a cut and dried definition. Any time the definition includes the term "etc" you are on shaky ground.

That whole "designed for" is very similar to "competiton gear" and get's very murky very quick. Sure there are crystal examples of cleats (a shoe that has printed on it "Local High School Football Team Equipment" with metal spikes for instance.

Golf shoes can look very much like street shoes, and don't have to be purchased in a golf store anymore.

one dictionary defines a cleat like this

"2. a. A projecting piece of metal or hard rubber attached to the underside of a shoe to provide traction.

2. b. cleats A pair of shoes with such projections on the soles."

Definition A could sure include lugged shoes of many types.

Personally, I see these to be more like safety equipment (along with knee pads) and less like gamer gear. Let's face it, many matches are shot in the dirty, grassy or muddy surfaces. If cleats help someone keep their feet while hustling around with a loaded gun ... well that's worth it.

[Jim Watson]

Key question: "Do you wear them shoes on your Momma's living room floor?"

I wear "cross trainers" with a slightly heavier than standard sneaker sole tread in good conditions, light hikers with Vibram soles on rocky or wet ground.

Yes, I wear "gamer knee pads" under my long pants too. For a while I carried around a doctor's prescription for them, until the matter was resolved.

[JThompson]

I'm going to disagree that this is a cut and dried definition. Any time the definition includes the term "etc" you are on shaky ground.

That whole "designed for" is very similar to "competiton gear" and get's very murky very quick. Sure there are crystal examples of cleats (a shoe that has printed on it "Local High School Football Team Equipment" with metal spikes for instance.

Golf shoes can look very much like street shoes, and don't have to be purchased in a golf store anymore.

one dictionary defines a cleat like this

"2. a. A projecting piece of metal or hard rubber attached to the underside of a shoe to provide traction.

2. b. cleats A pair of shoes with such projections on the soles."

Definition A could sure include lugged shoes of many types.

Personally, I see these to be more like safety equipment (along with knee pads) and less like gamer gear. Let's face it, many matches are shot in the dirty, grassy or muddy surfaces. If cleats help someone keep their feet while hustling around with a loaded gun ... well that's worth it.

Amen. Bottom line for me is safety... if it helps keep a guy/lady going down with a loaded pistol, I'm all for it.

[mikegot38]

When pointed out that the cleats were not allowed, the shooter in question removed them. My understanding is that this was his third IDPA match.

On the subject of gear, this is a GAME. Many of us have old knees and also have to be able to walk the next day at work. Why can I wear knee pads under my pants or inserted into the pockets in a pair of 5.11s, but I can't put on a pair for a stage that requires kneeling. This requires the wearing of long pants in 90+ degree weather. I think that sometimes people forget that this is a GAME.

Jim

I agree with Jim about the knee pads. I have a reconsructed knee and at any sanctioned match (NJ, PA- in hot weather) Imust wear long pants so I can wear a very heavy knee pad on that knee. The local club match SO's are not so strict because they recognize that we all must continue to walk AFTER the match.

[rvb]

Knee pads and cleats are a pet peeve of mine.

Cleats add no major competative advantage except when the ground is damp/muddy/sandy and then having traction is more of a safety issue than anything, imo. Yes, once I fell on my butt in loose terrain in my tennis shoes. So I "game" it as much as I can and wear good hiking shoes that have as much traction as I can find (I'm wearing them now, in the office, so they aren't "competition only" ). Amazing that people can afford all the guns and ammo and mags, etc but the possibility of spending $60 on a pair of shoes is asking too much and creates a competative disparity.

And knee pads.... I got tired of coming home from idpa matches w/ bloody knees since my home club is sand mixed w/ some gravel. So instead of stopping at the sporting goods store and getting some decent cheap knee pads, I had to order some "uber-tactical" 5.11 pants w/ the built-in, hidden, soft knee pads. So while my setup meets the rules as not being "competition only," I only wear it for competition.... get my drift? I don't buy the non-sense of "in real life you won't have knee pads." In real life I don't get into shootouts two to three weekends per month (not including practice) and I'd like to not have this game damage my knees for when I'm older.

As for the original question of the thread.... If a competator shot at Nats w/ cleats, that's an FTDR. Rules are rules, like 'em or not. From the rulebook definition of FTDR: "use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques" and cleats are listed in illegal equip.

-rvb

Edited October 2, 2007 by rvb

[p99shooter]

I'm against the use of cleats. However, a stage desgined by the rulebook has less than 10 yards of movement between arrays, and 15 yards of movement total. Within those guidelines, how much will cleats help your score anyway?

[Jim Norman]

Further on the subject of knee pads.

I have a friend that shot the recent nationals. He has VERY bad knees. He usually wears a spandex/stretchy brace on both knees when shooting. (Keep in mind, this is a GAME) so that his knees don't fail him. He shot this match wearing on ly one on his worst knee as he was concerned that the SOs would gig him for "Competition Gear" or visible knee pads.

This is BS. Does he always wear his braces? No, he does not. Why? because ion the couirse of a normal day he doesn't run thru 10 courses of fire, he walks around like most of us do. What would happen if the SHTF? He would react and worry about his knees later. The big difference being that he prize in Real Life is LIFE, in IDPA the prize is a little piece of wood with a few words scratched into a brass plate.

If IDPA wants to be for real tactical training, then lets play using "Simunitions" equipment and shoot at each other, sort of like Paint Ball. Now we can really call cover vs concealment if we change the walls to paper.

Until then it is just a game. If we did that it would still be a game. Keep in mind it has RULES. Real life confrontations have only two rules. Rule #1: There are no rules. Rule #2 Cheat

Jim

[Singlestack Wonder]

A knee brace is not the same as knee pads. The use of cleats and knee pads in IDPA matches is clearly defined in the rule. No grey areas. Those are the rules, like it or not.

[racerba]

Those examples I list are suitable to wear to go shoot a match, then go eat a burger and finally go to the shopping mall. I've done that in my trail running shoes more than once. Bet I would not do that in golf or football shoes.

I have gone to lunch, dinner, even to the mall after a round of golf or a game of football/softball/USPSA with my "cleats" on.

Key question: "Do you wear them shoes on your Momma's living room floor?"

NO, I do not wear the cleats in my mom's living room, nor do I wear any shoes in my mom's living room (we're Asian and must take our shoes off at the front door).

To be serious, I won't wear any shoes that are muddy into my living room, that includes "non-cleated" shoes I wear for IDPA. So since those shoes are specifically used for the "sport" of IDPA, is it considered "...designed for a specific sport (IDPA)..."?