9mm major for Limited

[Strick]

Let them have the 9 Major limited guns. Bet they aren't as soft shooting as what you already use. Plus I forecast an increase in

parts breakage and reliability issues.

As I said, I have shot 9 major in my stock guns and it's more like shooting a 357 mag snubbie to me. I would stick with a 40/45.

Craig

Well that I agree with. I don't think I would want to shoot with a Limited 9mm major polymer framed gun. I just think that if you want to you should be allowed to suffer.

[al503]

There are 22 round mags available for .40. I get 23 in 9 with a Grams tuned tube with bolen guts and pads. Hsmith claims he can get 24 rounds of 9 in a legal 140 tube (I'll be the first on his waiting if he offers them) so the max delta of what is available is 2 rounds.

Most bullet manufacturers make a 147 grain bullet in 9. It'll definitely be snappier than a 180 gr bullet in .40. So, you conceivably get one or two extra rounds but have to deal with the added recoil.

I like the fact that I can use just one set of mag tubes to shoot open and limited. Just have to have a set of guts and basepads for each division instead of an entirely new set of mags.

I think BK makes one of the best points so far. Nothing holding back anyone from shooting 9 in limited minor, which is what I do. It would be nice to have the option to shoot major with it though.

[uscbigdawg]

I would like to hear WHY someone wants 9 Major to be allowed in Limited. Too, of those that do, do they already own a Limited legal pistol.

If this were to happen, and I'm quite certain it wouldn't, I think it's safe that there'd be an exodus of shooters from USPSA or at least Limited division. I for one, would probably not renew my membership and stick to non-USPSA 3-Gun and other competitions where there is less of a concern on equipment.

Rich

[Strick]

I would like to hear WHY someone wants 9 Major to be allowed in Limited. Too, of those that do, do they already own a Limited legal pistol.

If this were to happen, and I'm quite certain it wouldn't, I think it's safe that there'd be an exodus of shooters from USPSA or at least Limited division. I for one, would probably not renew my membership and stick to non-USPSA 3-Gun and other competitions where there is less of a concern on equipment.

Rich

Maybe they want to run the same gun in production and Limited and use the same platform in those 2 as well as Open. Maybe they want to have a just one caliber of reloading supplies to simplify their supplies. There are many reasons I can think of that would make it attractive to some people.

About the only argument against it so far is they would have maybe 2 extra rounds.

[Strick]

I think BK makes one of the best points so far. Nothing holding back anyone from shooting 9 in limited minor, which is what I do. It would be nice to have the option to shoot major with it though.

Which is the part I find curious. The extra rounds are fine as long as they .40 shooter has the advantage in points. I would think that if the extra rounds were so critical then they would be against any 9mm in LTD, even minor.

[uscbigdawg]

I've got a pistol for sale then if it happens, but again, I'm quite certain it won't.

As for simplicity of platforms, well...I'd say tough S&E*! The only reason why Production exists is because people whined about wanting a "fair" and "level" playground for their factory guns.

Man I miss the good ol' days of this sport of Open & Limited...better yet would be no divisions and run what you brung.

Rich

[eerw]

Man I miss the good ol' days of this sport of Open & Limited...better yet would be no divisions and run what you brung.

Rich

All one division, heads up..now that was competition.

only reason limited exists is because people started whinning about dots and capacity.

[al503]

No offense to anyone intended but I find this thread 'all about the arrow' just a little funny when taking the other thread regarding 'its the indian, not the arrow.

Edited September 22, 2009 by al503

[kimel]

My stage (3) at Nats was 22 rounds. I saw a fair number of 22 round mags loaded as 22+1 and their times were no better or worse than the folks running 19/20/21 round mags. As long as there is movement involved the reload really doesn't cost you any significant time (assuming you practice reloading to the point where the disaster factor is diminished).

I also saw a bunch of those 22 round mags puke big time and a bunch of folks loading 21+1 or more run dry due to make-up shots, have to do a standing reload and finish out that last round or two while the seconds sped by.

I can't say with absolute certainty but I do not recall any of the Super Squads using 22 round mags (other than Open where big sticks ruled). Seems like all of them opted for the reload.

[uscbigdawg]

Not to be antagonistic, but I have to agree with the Mod.

My 20+1 40 mags run perfect and have zero desire to try and eek out another round or two. Given that ANY stage that's more than 12-16 rounds will have movement or provide an opportunity for a reload, the ammo advantage is very little. However, it's unfortunate that there are stages where it WILL matter and because we did a caliber change that's been in place for almost 2 decades, the gun, by caliber will be lacking.

Rich

[spd522]

I've got a pistol for sale then if it happens, but again, I'm quite certain it won't.

As for simplicity of platforms, well...I'd say tough S&E*! The only reason why Production exists is because people whined about wanting a "fair" and "level" playground for their factory guns.

Man I miss the good ol' days of this sport of Open & Limited...better yet would be no divisions and run what you brung.

Rich

I recall when I first started shooting USPSA, I shot the gun I carried on duty, a SIG P226 9mm in both Open and Limited. 15+1 was all it held but seemed to work. I still managed to hang in there pretty decent at the club matches. I thought I was moving up when I got a SA single stack, put a QuadraComp barrel in it, a magwell, and a ProPoint to blast with some 155 gr SWC. Then guys started showing up with Caspians that held 19.

As al503 pointed out, it's the Indian, not the arrow.

I do really like the 22+1 capacity of the 9mm for 3 gun though.

Craig

[scirocco38s]

It seems that about every 3-6month we get a new run of 9mm major in limited. It wont happen for several reasons.

Heavy 9mm bullets are as expensive as 180jhp in 40

The minimum cal is still 10mm/40cal

If you try to run major with 115/124's the recoil is going to punish the hell out of you and you will not be anywhere as competitive for your extra 2 rounds.

The gun itself is going to last about 1/2 as long as a open gun as it will beat itself to death, as well as the shooter.

The chamber pressures with some of the heavy9 loads are going to be thru the roof, I see kabooms in the future.

I know there is factory loads that supposedly mak major in 9mm but they have proprietary powders and bullets for those loads.

When one of these guns blows it is going to be ugly.

So if the bullets/primers/brass are almost the same to make it roughly like a 40 nowand the gun is going to be a lot harder to shoot, why does this continue to come up.

If you are shooting 3-gun and it isnt an issue about power factor the a 9mm running factory or lighter loads will be fine, but I wouldnt want to shoot a major9 limited gun.

I just dont see the advantage.

As others have stated it is the archer not the arrows, practice more for your advantage not try to buy it.

[Mistral404]

Personally, it is a matter of economics. The complaining about having to convert their .40 top ends to 9mm to remain competitive would be loud and almost universal. Add to that, magazines and reloading equipment. That is the only reason why 9 major is allowed in Open and not in Limited.

I think that if you can have 9 major in one division you should allow it in all divisions. The concept is capricious and arbitrary. They allow it for one but not for others, as a matter of law or regulation, C&A is generally cause for eliminating the ban.

It seemed to me that many of the stages at Nationals were at 22 rounds because the stage designers wanted to force a reload. Unfortunately many did have a 21/22 mag available. Seemed silly to me. But I am highly critical of the stage designs anyway.

[G-ManBart]

Personally, I agree with the Major PF is Major PF-period. It makes it or it doesn't. Bullet diameter shouldn't matter.

Cool...then I'm going to get to work on my slightly shortened .30 Carbine wildcat that will definitely make major. With a rim diamter of .360" versus .392" for 9mm I'm going to get even more of them in the gun so I can probably have a 27 round gun pretty easily.

Think people wouldn't be forced to have a new gun built if they're showing up with 21-round guns and others show up with 27-round guns? They would... and quickly.

Look at the stages at this year's Nationals and there were plenty in the 18-22 round range that had steel on them that would force a reload for most folks shooting Limited Major (either due to capacity or for insurance)....wouldn't even be an issue with 5-9 extra rounds in the gun.

[Micah]

Bullets, because of lower velocity you can use Moly or cast lead in a 40, not gonna do that with major 9,

I know of several noteworthy shooters that shoot moly for competition and lead for practice in 9 major.

Not that I have a dog in this fight, but from an administrative standpoint, which is going to honk off more people?

a) Not allowing 9mm major in Limited

Allowing 9mm major in Limited...thus alienating thousands of shooters

I

[G-ManBart]

I would like to hear WHY someone wants 9 Major to be allowed in Limited. Too, of those that do, do they already own a Limited legal pistol.

If this were to happen, and I'm quite certain it wouldn't, I think it's safe that there'd be an exodus of shooters from USPSA or at least Limited division. I for one, would probably not renew my membership and stick to non-USPSA 3-Gun and other competitions where there is less of a concern on equipment.

Rich

Maybe they want to run the same gun in production and Limited and use the same platform in those 2 as well as Open. Maybe they want to have a just one caliber of reloading supplies to simplify their supplies. There are many reasons I can think of that would make it attractive to some people.

About the only argument against it so far is they would have maybe 2 extra rounds.

There's nothing saying someone can't shoot the same .40 gun in Production, Limited and Open, so if they're looking to do it on the cheap and easy, there's already a way to do that....no need to change any rules.

Limited works very well as it is right now and the basic rules have been set for many years.

The reality is there are darned few folks out there that already have a gun in 9 that they would start using in Limited if only 9 Major was allowed. Changing the rules that already provide an even playing field for the vast majority of Limited shooters in order to suit a handful of people that probably aren't already shooting Limited is silly.

One of the basic tenants of organizing a sport is that you want to retain current participants and draw new ones in. Making a significant change to one of the most popular divisions and messing with the current participants for the slight possibility that a few new folks might join would be foolish.

If someone wants to join USPSA and start shooting Limited Major there are plenty of affordable, competitive gun options available to them without changing the rules.

[spd522]

Personally, I agree with the Major PF is Major PF-period. It makes it or it doesn't. Bullet diameter shouldn't matter.

Cool...then I'm going to get to work on my slightly shortened .30 Carbine wildcat that will definitely make major. With a rim diamter of .360" versus .392" for 9mm I'm going to get even more of them in the gun so I can probably have a 27 round gun pretty easily.

Think people wouldn't be forced to have a new gun built if they're showing up with 21-round guns and others show up with 27-round guns? They would... and quickly.

Look at the stages at this year's Nationals and there were plenty in the 18-22 round range that had steel on them that would force a reload for most folks shooting Limited Major (either due to capacity or for insurance)....wouldn't even be an issue with 5-9 extra rounds in the gun.

They wouldn't be forced to build a new gun. They chose to because they perceive an advantage. Usually the perception is because of a deficiency in other areas of shooting. Most of the time in this case it would be accuracy. How many COF are 20+ rounds where all targets can be engaged without moving? If you are moving you can reload. I think the mag capacity issue is lame.

I think it would be a fad, much like the 9x21, 9x23, 9x25 Dillon, etc was for Open. There will be some that have to have the most of the latest. But it will not prove to be an advantage in the longrun. Build a wildcat if you want but it won't prove to be economically feasible over the long haul and it will get expensive and time consuming losing that custom brass every match.

I have the guns to shoot Major 9 Limited safely but wouldn't. Not worth the added recoil and abuse. I would be more concerned about some of the guns folks would be using these loads in than them having a few more rounds than I did.

Craig

[bkeeler]

:wacko: :wacko:

BK

Edited September 23, 2009 by bkeeler

[G-ManBart]

Personally, I agree with the Major PF is Major PF-period. It makes it or it doesn't. Bullet diameter shouldn't matter.

Cool...then I'm going to get to work on my slightly shortened .30 Carbine wildcat that will definitely make major. With a rim diamter of .360" versus .392" for 9mm I'm going to get even more of them in the gun so I can probably have a 27 round gun pretty easily.

Think people wouldn't be forced to have a new gun built if they're showing up with 21-round guns and others show up with 27-round guns? They would... and quickly.

Look at the stages at this year's Nationals and there were plenty in the 18-22 round range that had steel on them that would force a reload for most folks shooting Limited Major (either due to capacity or for insurance)....wouldn't even be an issue with 5-9 extra rounds in the gun.

They wouldn't be forced to build a new gun. They chose to because they perceive an advantage. Usually the perception is because of a deficiency in other areas of shooting. Most of the time in this case it would be accuracy. How many COF are 20+ rounds where all targets can be engaged without moving? If you are moving you can reload. I think the mag capacity issue is lame.

I think it would be a fad, much like the 9x21, 9x23, 9x25 Dillon, etc was for Open. There will be some that have to have the most of the latest. But it will not prove to be an advantage in the longrun. Build a wildcat if you want but it won't prove to be economically feasible over the long haul and it will get expensive and time consuming losing that custom brass every match.

I have the guns to shoot Major 9 Limited safely but wouldn't. Not worth the added recoil and abuse. I would be more concerned about some of the guns folks would be using these loads in than them having a few more rounds than I did.

Craig

Actually, if they wanted to remain competitive, they would be forced to make the change. Sure, a GM with the lower capacity might beat all the D's through M's at a match who had higher capacity, but put two shooters of equal ability against one another and give one of them a 5 round (just picking a number) capacity advantage and he's going to win some stages where he didn't shoot as well as the guy with the lower capacity gun....it simply has to happen.

For the vast majority of folks out there a reload costs them time. The better the shooter, the less it hurts, but I know a reload costs me half a second or a touch more. If you're reloading you're not moving as fast as you could be. So, it's an absolute advantage. It's also one less possible disaster with a blown reload.

9x21 wasn't really a fad and came along before the other two. It was extremely popular as the only .355" alternative to Super/SC for Major. It still would be if they hadn't lowered the PF and made 9x19 Major legal. 9x23 and 9x25 were a bit of a fad and the only one that really died (9x25) did so because of the capacity disadvantage it suffers, so it pretty well makes my point. 9x25 worked the comp like nobody's business and was quite accurate, but it still couldn't overcome the capacity disadvantage.

If they removed the bullet diameter restrictions I can assure you that someone would come out with a wildcat in .30 that would make Major, would fit several more rounds in the mag and wouldn't be a wildcat for too long R,

[RIIID]

.30 cal major, I get .25 auto to make major, when does it stop. Well it stops at .40 cal dia. for major that's what the rules are right now and hopefully forever. .40 is the power factor requirement for major it's just one of the elements that make up Limited Div., play the game as written changing for a very small group to create a larger group isn't the way to keep the sport going.

Rich

[Strick]

I am not sure how it went from 9mm major to .30 cal and .25 auto. I thought the argument was that what is major in open should be major in LTD and since 9mm was the limit in production to allow it in major ltd.

I am still curious what the round count difference would be between .40 and 9mm in LTD.

Also like any sport, things need to constantly evolve. In racing which I have been involved in for a while things change, rules get tweaked, but yes wholesale changes should be avoided. It happens in every sport.

[VegasOPM]

Well I think that they ought to allow sub .40 cal to make major in Limited, along with comps and optics.... then they could be in Open too.

[Flexmoney]

Also like any sport, things need to constantly evolve. In racing which I have been involved in for a while things change, rules get tweaked, but yes wholesale changes should be avoided. It happens in every sport.

I will disagree with that.

Rules should be stable, unless there is an overwhelming/clear advantage in changing them.

There is not a case to be made for that here. Stability for 40 Major in Limited is...by far...the best path.

[al503]

I am not sure how it went from 9mm major to .30 cal and .25 auto. I thought the argument was that what is major in open should be major in LTD and since 9mm was the limit in production to allow it in major ltd.

Its a 'slippery slope' argument. If you let 9mm make major today, it'll be .22's in the future.

I am still curious what the round count difference would be between .40 and 9mm in LTD.

1 or 2 rounds max. 22 rounds .40 mags are available. In 9, 23 is definitely possible and we have a well respected tuner claiming 24 in a 140mm legal mag.

Also like any sport, things need to constantly evolve. In racing which I have been involved in for a while things change, rules get tweaked, but yes wholesale changes should be avoided. It happens in every sport.

I don't know the history that well but whatever happened to allow high caps back then I definitely appreciate it.

[G-ManBart]

I am not sure how it went from 9mm major to .30 cal and .25 auto. I thought the argument was that what is major in open should be major in LTD and since 9mm was the limit in production to allow it in major ltd.

I am still curious what the round count difference would be between .40 and 9mm in LTD.

Also like any sport, things need to constantly evolve. In racing which I have been involved in for a while things change, rules get tweaked, but yes wholesale changes should be avoided. It happens in every sport.

Just trying to illustrate the slippery slope concept already noted.

22 round mags in .40 are possible, but still not terribly common. Most folks are getting 20 or 21 reliably.

I have 23 and 24 round mags for 38SC but 9mm is a little tougher because of the tapered case and larger rim diameter, but I don't doubt the folks that say 24 is possible. The same argument could be made for 38SC as 9mm...if the rule were changed to allow .355" Major in Limited, so you're looking at the average shooter with 20/21 round mags considering 23/24 round mags. On the outside it's probably 3 or 4 round swing and for most it may only be 2 rounds difference (if they're pushing the envelope with both).

Imagine a 22 round stage with a 22 round gun...that's tight and you have no margin of error (might be worth going for it if you're trying to win). Now, give the same guy a 24 round gun and those two extra rounds provide one heck of a lot of margin for error in comparison. The guy with 22 misses once and he's hosed. The guy with 24 still has an extra makeup shot left and no static reload. It won't happen all the time, but it will happen.

The difference, as I see it, between racing and what we're doing is that in many/most forms of racing the car/engine you're running this year simply isn't going to be competitive next year and you know that going in....new stuff all the time. Not only that, but in most cases you're already going to be rebuilding or replacing engines, suspension components, etc on an ongoing basis. In USPSA Limited you've been able to run the exact same gun for years and be equally competitive the whole time. Sure, we're getting a couple of rounds more now than we did a while back, but that was no more than changing springs/followers and maybe some tuning...not free, but not a wholesale change. R,