shooter not complying with WSB start position

[boo radley]

Did a quick search, and didn't see anything, and I'm curious about the ruling on this:

I brought a new shooter out to a local USPSA match this weekend. On his first stage he did not start in accordance with the stage briefing (briefing specified starting with gun on a ledge; he started with it holstered). He received a procedural. He said he hadn't known/remembered hearing what the start position was, and there was no physical WSB on the stage. In truth, the RO hadn't remembered, either, from the walk-through briefing....

Out of idle curiosity, is this a legitimate procedural? Yes, if I read 10.2.2...However rule 8.2.2 seems to imply that if the competitor isn't at the proper starting position, he shouldn't have been started to begin with, no?

Thx

[dirtypool40]

As an RO I've made this mistake, and I re-shot the shooters who started incorrectly. I would think it's on the RO.

[HoMiE]

No procedural. RO shouldn't have let him start.

[racerba]

It's on the RO. The RO is NOT supposed to start the competitor unless he/she has assumed the start position (8.3.1). Reshoot.

[ChuckS]

Well,

3.1 General Regulations

The competitor is always responsible to safely fulfil the requirements of a course

of fire but can only reasonably be expected to do so after receiving the written

stage briefing, which must adequately explain the requirements to the competitors.

Course information can be broadly divided into the following types:

Why was there no WSB?

[Flexmoney]

Reshoot.

The competitor didn't run the same cof as everybody else.

8.3.1 “Load And Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of

“the Course of Fire”. Under the direct supervision of the Range

Officer the competitor must face down range, or in a safe direction

as specified by the Range Officer, fit eye and ear protection,

and prepare the handgun in accordance with the written stage

briefing. The competitor must then assume the required start

position. At this point, the Range Officer will proceed.

[uscbigdawg]

Well,

3.1 General Regulations

The competitor is always responsible to safely fulfil the requirements of a course

of fire but can only reasonably be expected to do so after receiving the written

stage briefing, which must adequately explain the requirements to the competitors.

Course information can be broadly divided into the following types:

Why was there no WSB?

Reshoot. Chuck - Probably 'cause of it being a club level and they didn't do it 'cause most, if not all, of the shooters get it during the walk through. Not a big deal. RO shouldn't have let him start anyways.

Rich

[ChuckS]

Chuck - Probably 'cause of it being a club level and they didn't do it 'cause most, if not all, of the shooters get it during the walk through. Not a big deal. RO shouldn't have let him start anyways.

Rich

It doesn't look optional, does it? I have seen some pretty crappy* ones but SOMETHING should be written down. It does not have to be fancy, a drawing, or computer generated but the particulars of the stage should be in writing to avoid what happened above. If it is a USPSA match, it shoud use USPSA rules.

Later,

Chuck

*Funny thing about this. The dearly-departed Reggie C. at Norco used to write descriptions and he would always use the word "sitted" for "seated" as in "starting position: sitted in chair". To this day, I will say sitted instead of seated about 80% of the time. I guess it's my tribute to him. I really miss those 50+ round hoser stages

[scirocco38s]

Boo, It is a local match and we dont always have time for a written stage Breifing. Especially with a 7 stage 169 round match. He should of had to reshoot the course as others have stated and if this was a problem he should have been directed to me as the match director and I would have given him the option of a reshoot or unsportsmanlike conduct. If you friend cannot comply with the verbal stage briefing that I gave and at least 60+ people heard it, then I can adjust his score accordingly at the next match. . It was a long day for all as it was 98+degreeswith 80 shooters and a long time getting the scores finished as we had a new scorekeeper. I was at the range Friday from 2 until 6 pm and then all day saturday 8am-630pm. Others are correct that the RO should have caught it but in the real world he just was given a freebee.

[uscbigdawg]

Chuck - Probably 'cause of it being a club level and they didn't do it 'cause most, if not all, of the shooters get it during the walk through. Not a big deal. RO shouldn't have let him start anyways.

Rich

It doesn't look optional, does it? I have seen some pretty crappy* ones but SOMETHING should be written down. It does not have to be fancy, a drawing, or computer generated but the particulars of the stage should be in writing to avoid what happened above. If it is a USPSA match, it shoud use USPSA rules.

Later,

Chuck

*Funny thing about this. The dearly-departed Reggie C. at Norco used to write descriptions and he would always use the word "sitted" for "seated" as in "starting position: sitted in chair". To this day, I will say sitted instead of seated about 80% of the time. I guess it's my tribute to him. I really miss those 50+ round hoser stages

Chuck,

I miss Reggie and all of you guys at Norco. I used to go there a lot with the YZF crew and prior to the Army gettin' in the way of my world domination of shooting , would make it to Norco a couple of times a year from Nor Cal. When I get out though, know I'll try and be there about once a month...at least.

I know it doesn't take much, but it happens and I agree...USPSA match = USPSA rules.

[scirocco38s]

USCdawg, How much longer are you over in the sandbox? If you get back to Bragg and want to shoot a match at my club let me know and you can shoot the first one free for being over in the land of hostiles.. The match is only 1.5 hours from Bragg, so it wouldnt take much of your time..Scirocco

[XD Niner]

It appears that the new shooter was the first one to shoot the stage. Is this true? At the clubs that I belong we put new shooters at or near the bottom of the order. They have enough sensory overload to deal with without forcing them to remember the details of the walk through. Why not let them see other more experienced shooters go first so that they can get a feel for the stage?

However, if he or she was not the first shooter on the stage I believe they have only themselves to blame.That said, I agree with the posters above that this should be a reshoot regardless of the other circumstances.

Edited August 6, 2007 by XD Niner

[boo radley]

Boo, It is a local match and we dont always have time for a written stage Breifing. Especially with a 7 stage 169 round match. He should of had to reshoot the course as others have stated and if this was a problem he should have been directed to me as the match director and I would have given him the option of a reshoot or unsportsmanlike conduct. If you friend cannot comply with the verbal stage briefing that I gave and at least 60+ people heard it, then I can adjust his score accordingly at the next match. . It was a long day for all as it was 98+degreeswith 80 shooters and a long time getting the scores finished as we had a new scorekeeper. I was at the range Friday from 2 until 6 pm and then all day saturday 8am-630pm. Others are correct that the RO should have caught it but in the real world he just was given a freebee.

Aaagh! Martin -- I'm truly sorry I brought this up, since I never intended it in this manner, and certainly not as a complaint. *Believe* me, I know how much time and energy you put into these matches. It shows, and I'm very grateful to be able to shoot one of the best local (and above) matches in the country only an hour away.

I was simply very curious about the ruling, since I, too, wasn't sure of the call, but thought it was the right one, and told the shooter (who wasn't complaining) that he was responsible for knowing the stage briefing. I now know I was wrong, and am also learning, after a recent level III, match where I stopped myself when I saw an unpasted target, I don't know the rules anywhere near as well as I should. I should take an RO Level I course.

Anyway.

Yeah, this guy was like the second shooter up on the first stage of the day. The RO was a new one. The first shooter started correctly, but this guy didn't, and partially through the stage someone yelled, "Hey, he didn't start with the gun on the ledge!" When the stage was over, there was some discussion, I think -- I was pasting -- and the upshot was 1 procedural, though the RO apologized, and said, "I should have caught that; my mistake." No one complained or was upset. I've just been wondering afterwards what the rule really is.

Steve

[Joe4d]

I say either no penalty or a reshoot,,,

8.1.3 Course of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition MUST be clearly stated in the WRITTEN stage briefing.

can also look 8.2.1, 8.2.3.... both specify written stage brief.

As MD you shouldnt catch an attitude because someone asks a question about a match not run in accordance with USPSA rules, No time for a written brief is an excuse and a lame one at that, someone thought the stage up, put the basics on paper and built the stage, no reason that paper couldnt be nailed to a post near the stage.

[LPatterson]

Boo, It is a local match and we dont always have time for a written stage Breifing. Especially with a 7 stage 169 round match. He should of had to reshoot the course as others have stated and if this was a problem he should have been directed to me as the match director and I would have given him the option of a reshoot or unsportsmanlike conduct. If you friend cannot comply with the verbal stage briefing that I gave and at least 60+ people heard it, then I can adjust his score accordingly at the next match. . It was a long day for all as it was 98+degreeswith 80 shooters and a long time getting the scores finished as we had a new scorekeeper. I was at the range Friday from 2 until 6 pm and then all day saturday 8am-630pm. Others are correct that the RO should have caught it but in the real world he just was given a freebee.

For it to be a USPSA match (which means using the rules) then a written stage briefing is a requirement.

The shooter was not given a freebee, he was assessed a procedural penalty.

Rule 3.2 covers Written Stage Briefings but does not require the my name is blah blah and I am your CRO for stage 69 shoot your foot. It only requires;

Scoring method:

Targets (type & number):

Minimum number of rounds:

The handgun ready position:

Time starts: audible or visual signal:

Procedure:

Almost every COF diagram I have ever seen lists this information and for 2 local clubs this is the only document available for the COF.

Your other comments of a reshoot or unsportsmanlike conduct are uncomprehensible to be blaming your day on the shooter. Just because you gave the stage briefing & 60 other people heard it is not reason to belittle the shooter with your threats. And I am not sure I understand what you mean about adjusting his score at the next match. At the L10 nats with squads of 10 there was almost always one shooter that had to be reminded what the starting position was. BOO HOO, try that for 3 & 1/2 days where the shooters are convinced that every hole in the paper is the difference between them winning & losing.

I understand being a Match Director is a thankless job, at least I see very few people at local matches stop the MD and thank them for the match.

[JFD]

An unearned procedural isn't a "freebee".

"Adjusting" a competitor's score at the next match??? WTF???

It takes a couple of minutes at most to scribble a WSB on a scrap of paper/target if that's all you have. I've done it many times.

[ima45dv8]

I've seen enough WSB's written on the back of a spare target to think there's no reason not to have *something* for the shooter to read. It *can* be done.

=======================================

Now would also be a good time to remember some pertinent Forum Guidelines:

"Posting Guidelines

Attitude

Please be polite. Or if not polite, at least respectful.

No bickering. Regardless of the subject matter.

Antagonistic, offensive, or quarrelsome tones are not acceptable."

=======================================

Bad decisions aside, we're all in this together.

[richardschennberg]

I would go with no penalty. If another shooter protests, I would require a reshoot.

Richard Schennberg

Edited August 22, 2007 by richardschennberg
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[Jaxshooter]

It is very simple, the RO should not have started the shooter to begin with. The shooter must reshoot the stage. Rules are rules, there is nowhere in the rules that would allow the procedural penalty instead of reshooting.

[XRe]

It is very simple, the RO should not have started the shooter to begin with. The shooter must reshoot the stage. Rules are rules, there is nowhere in the rules that would allow the procedural penalty instead of reshooting.

+1 - it really is that simple. If the shooter refuses to reshoot, after it being pointed out that the rules require it, he can be awarded a zero for the stage. He has the right to refuse Doing so is not a DQ'able offense (assuming he doesn't phrase his refusal in terms of violence or something like that...).

[boz1911]

Reshoot, RO deserves the penalty. That statement said with love, we ALL make mistakes. Reshoot

[sloopy70]

Yeah I'd just give him a reshoot... Also at our local club matches we almost never have a WSB unless we thought the stage up days earlier and wrote it all out...

otherwise we all build the stages the day before, or the morning of the shoot this is a "Volunteer" sport... we give a very detailed briefing and walk through and give plenty of time for anyone to ask questions ... we usually have between 10 and 20 shooters, so this isn't a problem... thats why we usually ask "do you understand the course of fire and what your about to do" before LAMR... Its a LOCAL match... i doesn't even HAVE TO BE uspsa affiliated if we don't want it to, so I don't see it being a huge problem especially with such a small number of shooters...

[JThompson]

As an RO I've made this mistake, and I re-shot the shooters who started incorrectly. I would think it's on the RO.

+1 I just had this happen to me at a monthly... the RO spaced and so did I. As soon as it was brought to our attention, he yelled, "Tapem for a reshoot!" Along with an expicative or two.