Joe4d Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I am sitting here nursing a gash on my lip caused by jacket material from a Golden Saber, I was standing at least 20 yards maybe more from the targets, as shooter was at 15. I really hate hollowpoints for match use. Couple thoughts, 1,this ( Hawaii area USPSA) is the first match range that I have been to that allows hollowpoints, 2 In event of accidental shooting the odds are much better with cast or FMJ, hollow points are very good at what they are designed to do which is cause maximum damage. 3 There is a much greater chance of jacket splatter injury with hollowpoints. I understand our sport does have some risk and it has a much lower rate of death and injury than even school football. I feel discouraging or not allowing hollowpoints can add a level of safety without any problems. I dont see any competitive advantage to using them some claim accuracy advantage which I dont buy as how many Bullesey shooters use them ? I just plain dont like seeing them at matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Bummer! I, as well as many others I know, have the same scars...... Ya think hollowpoint are worse than others ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I don't know...worst gash I ever got was from an FMJ off of steel...hollow points have never been a problem for me. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I dont buy the accuracy claim, but that may be because I cant shoot anyway. But they do smoke less.----------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 it's probably not the type of bullet that cause the injury. it was the steel. the steel was not flat, i.e. ) ( lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver8M3 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 it's probably not the type of bullet that cause the injury. it was the steel. the steel was not flat, i.e. ) (lynn that's what i've noticed...that bad steel causes splatter. i've seen some pretty ugly steel at matches recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin J Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I have to agree with the bad steel as a cause. I got a lead fragment buried in my leg shooting at a plate rack from 25 yards with 200 grain lead out of a .45. The shorts I ws wearing probably didn't help either, except that it saved me from digging cloth out of my leg in addition to lead. It is just a fact of life, if the steel isn't hard enough or not set at a correct deflection angle, folks are going to get hit with fragments. Sorry about your lip though! That's a bad place to get hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 it's probably not the type of bullet that cause the injury. it was the steel. the steel was not flat, i.e. ) (lynn that's what i've noticed...that bad steel causes splatter. i've seen some pretty ugly steel at matches recently. Agreed. Also, this being the forum it is, I know its not the place to argue. Quick note of explanation on JHP use: since a JHP has an enclosed base, it is favored by many Open division shooters because it prevents lead from being deposited in the compensator. Maybe the issue of JHP use could be raised in the USPSA rules section if someone feels strongly about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I almost posted last night. Bad steel is almost exclusively the cause of this type of injury. Dimpled steel or badly dished steel should be replaced. Never, repeat NEVER use diamond plate! That stuff can send frags all over the place. The JHPs have an enclosed base. Less smoke and maybe less lead in the air. Star used to make a round called the CEB or Copper Enclosed Base, it had exposed lead at the tip. Hornaday makes or made a head called the HAP or Hornaday Action Pistol, a very soft lead with a hollow point. Supposedly mashed very easy against steel to impart more energy to facilitate a knockdown as opposed to bouncing the majority of the round off the plate. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I've been hit with JHP, FMJ, Lead, etc. JHP does not bounce back any more than any other type of bullets. However, JHP will be smaller fragments than lead when they do bounce back. Something to think about there. It could have been your whole mouth instead of a little cut on your lip. That's why we all wear eye protection. Bullseye shooters don't get much bounce back because they shoot at paper targets. And they don't use JHP because lead is more accurate than jacketed bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Just being contrairian here...for a long time, the Nosler 185 grain JHP was the preferred bullet for .45s in Conventional Pistol. Given enough load development and a good gun, one can make any decent bullet shoot well enough (3" @ 50 yards) regardless of construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R112mercer Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 The Nosler 185's are still quite common on the 50 yard line at Bullseye matches. Most guys use 185 or 200 gr. SWC's on the 25 yd (timed & rapid) events. It's been my experience that HP's fly well at almost any velocity, whereas FMJ bullets usually have to be moving at a good clip to properly stabilize. My thinking is that it has to with the weight distribution on the HP's (most of the weight is towards the middle, making the bullet more balanced). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 *Some good ballistics lessons, but let's try to stay on track with Joe's Hate topic -- getting hit by frags. I hate it, too. I ran almost 400 shooters through a course with 12 pieces of steel at the 2006 Area 6 match, and I lost count of the number of hits I took. And a few of them HURT! That steel was in good shape, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz-0 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I hate getting zapped. Most unpleasant one was catching a good size chunk in the teeth while taliking. VERY unpleasant. Seems to me that from least splatter to most goes LEAD/coated lead->plated->JHP->FMJ. But you can get zapped by anything and the difference isn't THAT huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Properly designed and placed steel does not reflect bullets, HP or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreblePlink Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Properly designed and placed steel does not reflect bullets, HP or otherwise. Man I'd really like to believe that, and clearly it minimizes problems, but I own a new Popper with perfect steel - made for rifles (water cut armor plate) and shoot it only with 40 / 45 pistol. And I have been hit several times at 15 yards by a direct reflected fragment. Nothing bad yet, but it can happen. I wish I had the answers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpcdvc Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 (edited) I've been hit or seen people hit many times by many different bullet frags. I don't think one bullet is worse than the other. Although there is one bullet that is nearly 100% frag proof. This stuff is pretty amazing! Too expensive for our sport though. Unless maybe if your TJ. http://www.frangiblebullets.com/ Edited June 21, 2007 by tpcdvc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Properly designed and placed steel does not reflect bullets, HP or otherwise. Man I'd really like to believe that, and clearly it minimizes problems, but I own a new Popper with perfect steel - made for rifles (water cut armor plate) and shoot it only with 40 / 45 pistol. And I have been hit several times at 15 yards by a direct reflected fragment. Nothing bad yet, but it can happen. I wish I had the answers... You can believe it.......... if you read exactly what EricW is saying. "Properly designed and placed" does not mean that it only has to have a flat plate of good steel, it must also be designed without any surfaces protruding forward of the plate. Notice that quality with MGM,s popper http://www.mgmtargets.com/products/poppers.shtml Now I don't know what your rifle target looks like, but most are not designed to be shot at close range and may have flat surfaces of the supporting assembly in the splatter zone, which will send material uprange. When choosing and setting up steel to be shot with a pistol look at the target and visualize a stream of high pressure water hitting the plate and if the spray that would radiate from that comes into contact with any flat surface (other than dirt) it is probably not safe for use at typical pistol distances. This is not meant to be a rebuttal (I hate frag injuries as much as the next guy), just trying to shed some light on what really causes fragments to return uprange, and in my opinion it has absolutely nothing to do with the design of the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Jim, and Eric are both correct. 3yrs ago we were having people getting hit with fragments off of steel at every match.(1 person required stitches). Most all of this steel was heavily dimpled and pocked with deep holes that were not completely thru but close, as well most of the steel was dished shaped. We replaced all of our steel at the end of the year with new MGM steel (poppers as well as plates) and in the last 2 years no one has been hit with fragments of any kind regardless of bullet type or gun shooting it. Good flat steel and well placed steel is the key to safety during the match. Also as a side note at the end of each shooting season we take all of our steel and dissassemble it ,sand blast, prime, and reassemble with plent of grease on the pivot poinst and replace the bolts holding the poppers to the bases. With good maintinence practices this steel is as good today as when we purchased it and we use most all of our steel at every match all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 You can believe it.......... if you read exactly what EricW is saying. "Properly designed and placed" does not mean that it only has to have a flat plate of good steel, it must also be designed without any surfaces protruding forward of the plate. Notice that quality with MGM,s popper Thanks! If all forward faces of steel targets were angled so that the bullets deflected *downward*, all ricochet paths were eliminated, and all targets were constructed with AR400 or better target faces, getting tagged by a bullet would become an exceedingly rare event. I hate new rules, but it really seems time to issue a construction standard for new steel acquisition by sanctioned IPSC/USPSA clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 21, 2007 Author Share Posted June 21, 2007 Humm, I kinda expected to get blasted here but guess we have good people willing to accept other views. As stated since I come from a "No Hollowpoint allowed" region I have little first hand hollow point experience. But was told no hollow points because of increased jacket material splashback and higher risk of fatal bleedout before medical help arrives. When I noticed them at matches in HI I was surprised as it was the first time I had seen them in match use. I was told they are more accurate which I didnt buy. I have loaded quite a few fmj's that and copper coated bullets that had no exposed lead, so didnt think that was the issue. So was kinda wondering what was the point in them especially because they tend to cost more. Not campaigning for a rule change or really asking for anything just wanted to vent and say, "I hate hollowpoints" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 38superman Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 No problem. Ban the steel and just shoot paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 No problem.Ban the steel and just shoot paper. no way dude! ani't gonna happen. get thee to the bullseye range! lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpcdvc Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 Humm, I kinda expected to get blasted here but guess we have good people willing to accept other views. As stated since I come from a "No Hollowpoint allowed" region I have little first hand hollow point experience. But was told no hollow points because of increased jacket material splashback and higher risk of fatal bleedout before medical help arrives. When I noticed them at matches in HI I was surprised as it was the first time I had seen them in match use. I was told they are more accurate which I didnt buy. I have loaded quite a few fmj's that and copper coated bullets that had no exposed lead, so didnt think that was the issue. So was kinda wondering what was the point in them especially because they tend to cost more. Not campaigning for a rule change or really asking for anything just wanted to vent and say, "I hate hollowpoints" It seems the consensus is that it is more likely a steel problem than a bullet problem. Also, in my experience hollow points are by and large more accurate. I can show you years of reloading data that will back up my opinion. Also, if you ask say Norm at Montana Gold he will tell you that because of the manufacturing process in making hollow points they are potentially more accurate the even his complete metal jacket. That being said not all guns may show a marked improvement in accuracy using hollow points. Anyway, you might not want to write them off so quickly if you are one who prefers a very accurate race gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpcdvc Posted June 21, 2007 Share Posted June 21, 2007 No problem.Ban the steel and just shoot paper. no way dude! ani't gonna happen. get thee to the bullseye range! lynn Yep, I love the steel!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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