New Multigun Rule Proposal

[Religious Shooter]

Just to throw in... requiring downloaded magazines is currently a no-no in USPSA.

8.1.4 Unless complying with a Division requirement (see Appendices), a competitor must not be restricted on the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a rifle. Written stage briefings may only stipulate when the firearm is to be loaded or when mandatory reloads are required, when permitted under Rule 1.1.5.2.

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position or stance, however, mandatory reloads must never be required in other Long Courses.

Which element of freestyle am I getting rid of by starting you with 20 rounds for a 20 round stage?

See above rule.

[BigDave]

Ok, we've roundly resolved that current USPSA rules have no accomodation for requiring magazine changes short of standard exercises and classifiers. It is also clear that freestyle should be just that - freestyle. So, the only thing left to do to allow course designers to effectively test rifle reloading and simultaneously effetively manage matches on long course is to institute a magazine capacity rule.

Does anyone else see another alternative?

[Merlin Orr]

Ok, we've roundly resolved that current USPSA rules have no accomodation for requiring magazine changes short of standard exercises and classifiers. It is also clear that freestyle should be just that - freestyle. So, the only thing left to do to allow course designers to effectively test rifle reloading and simultaneously effetively manage matches on long course is to institute a magazine capacity rule.

Does anyone else see another alternative?

Praise Allah and close this thread....

[Scott R]

I don't see what the fixation of forcing a reload in a field course is all about. Seems to me the only thing tested is ones ability to find the gaps of shooting during the stage and decide which one the reload best fits in. For example in the typical pistol field course with the pistol's capacity at 20-22 rds and the course of fire 24 rds or greater, more often than not, the reload will cost most shooters 1 second or less of real time while reloading on the move, even a slightly botched reload can be fixed during movement without much time lost (and this will be no different with rifles at 30-40rds). Now compare that to a standards course with a mandatory reload per string where all of the extra time due to a mistake is costly.

In my opinion if you want to test someones ability to reload do it in a standards course where it is a much larger percentage of the total time and leave the field courses freestyle.

[Nik Habicht]

Just to throw in... requiring downloaded magazines is currently a no-no in USPSA.

8.1.4 Unless complying with a Division requirement (see Appendices), a competitor must not be restricted on the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a rifle. Written stage briefings may only stipulate when the firearm is to be loaded or when mandatory reloads are required, when permitted under Rule 1.1.5.2.

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position or stance, however, mandatory reloads must never be required in other Long Courses.

Which element of freestyle am I getting rid of by starting you with 20 rounds for a 20 round stage?

See above rule.

Nice try ---- however 8.1.4 doesn't deal with freestyle, 1.1.5 does. Here's the reminder:

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

How exactly does my proposal violate any part of 1.1.5? My proposal allows you to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis, doesn't require any mandatory reloads, shooting positions or stances, doesn't require anyone to get rid of equipment they now own, --- and, oh yeah, the shooter gets to reload wherever and whenever he wants.....

[kurtm]

Wow this thing grew alot since I was gone. Lets recap, no one agrees, Religious Shooter says IMGA and the like are crap matches, then says he wants to keep his bigger-biggest mags for the "important" IMGA matches so we now have stratified "crap". By limiting mag capacity we are indeed making people do "mandatory" reloads, we just use a fancy way of saying it. No one agrees on anything. We hate the idea of dumping full or almost full down loaded magazines, yet it is fine to dump those same half full magazines if it is a "planed" reload durring a "freestyle" course. We don't agree on anything

I would like to point out that the ONLY reason that USPSA has a TACTICAL division is because the "crap matches" had it for a LONG time before and it was the most popular. It took USPSA a while to see that was the way to go. I would also like to point out that the Crap matches DON'T limit magazines and they ALWAYS FILL. I don't think that is just a wierd coincidence. BUT if you like to shoot USPSA with a scope on your rifle, thank a IMGA shooter because he paved the way way back in 1990. KURTM

[AikiDale]

We test reloading in pistol long courses. We really test reloading in shotgun. When it comes to rifle I would really just like to test the shooting.

[George]

Kurt, no one else is dissin' IMG matches here and you are absolutely right, thanking an Outlaw 3gunner the next time one with a "JP Limited Rifle" whup's yo' butt in Tac Division at a USPSA 3gun match is the exact right thing to do

In my opinion if you want to test someones ability to reload do it in a standards course where it is a much larger percentage of the total time and leave the field courses freestyle.

I could not agree more. Nothin' quite like a flat-footed reload on the clock to separate the wheat from the chaff

[Flexmoney]

Kurt, thanks for paving the way.

Could you share your experience and tell us the ways that a rifle reload has been handled in various matches? Is it a skill that you believe that needs tested, or should we really just write it off and not test it (as it might be unpopular)?

How do range/bay restrictions at various local clubs play in here? What about setup time and such?

[shred]

I could not agree more. Nothin' quite like a flat-footed reload on the clock to separate the wheat from the chaff

Until some joker shows up with a STI Mech Tech... those things reload really fast. Won't shoot past 100 yards, but with the local ranges, that's not happening anyway...

[George]

Until some joker shows up with a STI Mech Tech...

Somehow, I'm not thinking this will be any faster than an AR. Kurt Miller has posted a 1.5 second shot to shot from the belt AR reload with an A hit each side on a 10 yard target. Heck, I can put that drill in the can at 1.8 seconds on demand nowadays pulling the mag from the belt. I know several folks at our local club who can equal, or just edge me on demand with a cinched pair of mags.

Shred, got any times for the STI Mech Tech doing something like the 10 yard shot to shot drill?

[Neil Beverley]

While this post may not offer much to the question in hand it may still have a relevance in general terms.

I have a fear for USPSA 3G/MG and USPSA shotgun only matches in that while the USPSA is rewriting a new set of rules for USPSA handgun matches I understand that SG and Rifle isn't seeing the same treatment at present. There is a danger, I think, that the SG and Rifle rules will become contradictory to the new HG rules. This in time may (will) lead to some unfortunate anomalies.

The current SG & R rules were adopted by the USPSA in May 2005 and are effectively the 2004 IPSC rule set with a very small number of changes.

I am already aware of an occurrence where a change to the IPSC rules for USPSA HG (in 2005) was subsequently voted (inflicted) on SG and screwed up a rule because it was carried through without proper reference to the SG rules. I emailed the powers that be, an interpretation was issued and guess what? It still didn't fix the problem.

IMHO SG and Rifle deserve their own champions within USPSA to properly look after the interests of these 2 disciplines. Otherwise they will be written as also-rans to HG and this isn't the ideal solution.

I experienced this before within both IPSC and the UKPSA and I now fulfil this shotgun function within IPSC for the SG rules and for the discipline in general. We also have a separate rep for the Rifle rules.

To expand these disciplines, and to give their due credit, they need champions within the organization. And I don't mean HG shooters who dabble in SG & R. I mean full-on SG & R specialists (who dabble in HG ).

My 2 cents worth.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Neil Beverley

[George]

I definitely "dabble in HG"

If I have a choice of what I am bringing to the party, it ain't gonna' have a short barrel

[Religious Shooter]

Nice try ---- however 8.1.4 doesn't deal with freestyle, 1.1.5 does.

8.1.4 does deal with freestyle.

What is freestyle? Freestyle to me is: "These are your tools... go solve the problem however you want to."

What you want is: "These are your tools... I want you to solve the problem with X rounds in the magazine at the start. Now go solve the problem by the initial number of rounds I am limiting you to."

You take away some of my ability ("freestyle") to solve the problem by inhibiting the full functionality of my equipment. 8.1.4 protects freestyle by specifically stating that you can't restrict "the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a rifle."

I mean why do we have that statement if not to protect a freestyle? Why are we prohibiting the practice of the forced downloading of magazines? Why... to preserve freestyle!

How exactly does my proposal violate any part of 1.1.5? My proposal allows you to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis, doesn't require any mandatory reloads, shooting positions or stances, doesn't require anyone to get rid of equipment they now own, --- and, oh yeah, the shooter gets to reload wherever and whenever he wants.....

It violates it by requiring a mandatory reload. The whole point of downloading mags is to cause the shooter to reload. 8.1.4 recognizes this "loophole" and prohibits the practice.

[Nik Habicht]

8.1.4 does deal with freestyle.

What is freestyle? Freestyle to me is: "These are your tools... go solve the problem however you want to."

Unfortunately that position doesn't seem to be supported by the rulebook, though.....

What you want is: "These are your tools... I want you to solve the problem with X rounds in the magazine at the start. Now go solve the problem by the initial number of rounds I am limiting you to."

Nope, you get to use any and all rounds you can carry. I'm only interested in being able to limit what's in the gun initially ---- largely because I see no difference between this and an empty gun start.

8.1.4 protects freestyle by specifically stating that you can't restrict "the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a rifle."

I mean why do we have that statement if not to protect a freestyle? Why are we prohibiting the practice of the forced downloading of magazines? Why... to preserve freestyle!

Rulebook historians? Any idea when the language in 8.1.4 was added to the handgun rules? I still have concerns that we just blindly picked up a whole bunch of handgun rules for the Shotgun and Rifle books, without considering how shotgun and rifle are different from handgun.

How exactly does my proposal violate any part of 1.1.5? My proposal allows you to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis, doesn't require any mandatory reloads, shooting positions or stances, doesn't require anyone to get rid of equipment they now own, --- and, oh yeah, the shooter gets to reload wherever and whenever he wants.....

It violates it by requiring a mandatory reload. The whole point of downloading mags is to cause the shooter to reload. 8.1.4 recognizes this "loophole" and prohibits the practice.

Mmmm, no --- a mandatory reload isn't required, it's just a good idea if you wish to engage all the targets. You're free to skip reloading, if you decide that that's the best approach to the stage.....

[Flexmoney]

Religious Shooter,

I dunno...

Following that logic, wouldn't anything other than pure Open division be against freestyle?

--------------------------

Like Neil, I fear getting the SG/rifle rules out of whack with the pistol rules. That might be enough to keep me from supporting a change.

But...if we can't get rules that work and test skill at the local level (not just the big matches), then we really can't expect clubs to run with USPSA rules.

No growth.

[uscbigdawg]

I just see folks being scared to be tested. Pure and simple.

Rich

[George]

I just see folks being scared to be tested. Pure and simple.

Not Moi! I relish the test ;-)

[uscbigdawg]

Not you George.

Rich

[Merlin Orr]

I just see folks being scared to be tested. Pure and simple.

Rich

What a great argument on your part, Rich.... Whats next? I double dog dare you?

[sslav]

As a complete newb to this game, I am almost hesitant to put in my $0.02. But I think the main thing to keep in mind is that this IS a game and as far as games go it is an extremely young one.

Take hockey - they went from 6 skaters and a goalie to 5 skaters and a goalie to 4 on 4 in overtime. Added a shootout to break ties. Elliminated tag up on off-site rule, re-implemented tag-up on offsite rule. Added "foot in the crease" rule and then removed it. Added a mandatory helmet rule. Added a red line to introduce a 2 line pass rule then removed the 2-line pass rule. Introduced limits on the curve of stick blades then relaxed those limits somewhat. Increased the size of the goalie crease then shrunk it down. Intorduced limits on the size of goalie equipment. Placed limits on where a goalie could play the puck. And I am sure I am missing at least a few.

The point I am trying to make is that game rules evolve as game matures - equipment improves, new tactics and skills evolve making use of the new equipment and new ideas. We are not talking about chizzeling in an addition to the 10 commandments here - these are game rules. Reloading is a shooting skill - yes even for a rifle. Given the existing set of rules there is no practical way to make this skill a part of the game - aside from standards which people appear not to like. Seems like the rules should change to open a possibility for allowing this shooting challenge in a multigun rifle stage. I do not think this idea should be compared to an assault on the second ammendment.

[Religious Shooter]

Religious Shooter,

I dunno...

Following that logic, wouldn't anything other than pure Open division be against freestyle?

My statement is a simplification and had unstated assumptions. The assumptions being how you can "legally" restrict freestyle in USPSA:

- Through standard courses of fire

- Through equipment divisions

- Through safety rules.

- Etc.

That is the starting point and part of the definition of what USPSA freestyle. So when I say:

Freestyle to me is: "These are your tools... go solve the problem however you want to."

it has the above caveats.

So by the rules the shooters' tools can only be limited by the specifications of their division. So for example say your magazine is a "tool." For Lim/Tactical Pistol it can only be up to 140MM long. For Open up to 170MM long. Freestyle dictates that you keep the full functionality of your magazines at all times. They are only limited by the bounds set by the division.

"Tools" also represents technique (your stance, plan of assault/attack, etc.) The rulebook indicates that the shooters' toolbox cannot be restricted. We protect and preserve the full functionality of your tools here:

1.1.5 ... Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance...

and here:

8.1.4 Unless complying with a Division requirement (see Appendices), a competitor must not be restricted on the number of rounds to be loaded or reloaded in a rifle.

Any debasement of your "tools" or dictating the use of your toolbox lessens freestyle.

If you restrict the # of rounds in a shooter's magazines other than by the set legal means... are you or are you not decreasing "freestyle?"

... what's your personal definition of "freestyle?"

Nope, you get to use any and all rounds you can carry. I'm only interested in being able to limit what's in the gun initially ---- largely because I see no difference between this and an empty gun start.

I may get to use all the rounds that I carry... but you are telling me how I should use them. You are telling me that I can only load X rounds when I can load my Beta to 100 rounds. You are restricting my methods, my equipment, my freestyle in manner that is not "legal."

I'm only interested in being able to limit what's in the gun initially ---- largely because I see no difference between this and an empty gun start.

Empty gun starts with fully loaded magazines comply with 8.1.4. You aren't restricting the functionality of the magazine.

Rulebook historians? Any idea when the language in 8.1.4 was added to the handgun rules?

It was to close the loophole that effectively made the shooter do mandatory reloads.

Mmmm, no --- a mandatory reload isn't required, it's just a good idea if you wish to engage all the targets. You're free to skip reloading, if you decide that that's the best approach to the stage.....

I don't get what you are saying. Suppose a course requires 30 rounds and you make me download to 20... How can I skip reloading?

Are you saying I can skip reloading and by doing so take the 10 mikes and other penalties?!?!?! So my choices are 1) do a reload and engage all the targets or 2) don't reload and get all the penalties and pretty much zero the stage?

Is there really a choice in this scenario?

[Flexmoney]

As a complete newb to this game, I am almost hesitant to put in my $0.02. But I think the main thing to keep in mind is that this IS a game and as far as games go it is an extremely young one.

By all means, jump right in. It's just a [friendly] discussion.

I'll have to take your word on all that hockey stuff.

RS,

Where we are is that we have "rules" that are keeping us from certain tests (reloads in anything except standards).

We can ring the bell for freestyle forever, but we still aren't left with anything that lets match directors test reloads in matches (other than standards).

[Jim Norman]

Been away for a few days.

Someone suggested course design as a way to force a reload, the suggested design waas a very small port in a corner, so that a beta or a 30 wouldn't allow you to make the shot.

I have a problem with this. We need to make all ports available to all competitors. A 6 x 6 port in a corner may work for some, but there are many how shall we say, of larger than average girth that would not be able to get into a position to shoot through the port with any firearm. How do you address this? Any position that a large shooter can get into a shooter of smaller stature could as well, but nrither would be forced to switch to a 20 round mag from a 30. Also, while many may carry 20's, that is not universal and would present an unfair challenge unless it were published ahead of time that a 20 would be required. And wouldn't that be in violation of the rules? Can you require the use of certain equipment?

I still fail to see that allowint, not requiring a stage designer to require a reload after the busser and before engaging the last target is so wrong. Rifle is not pistol. USPSA is new to Multi-GUn. Others ahve been running it a long time, longer thatn I have by years. I am certain I have been required to reload at those other "Crap" Matches.

Jim

[wide45]

We can ring the bell for freestyle forever, but we still aren't left with anything that lets match directors test reloads in matches (other than standards).

This is a good thing.

How many shoot USPSA Multigun? A few hundred?

How many of them want to mandate reloads in field courses? Less than 10 posting here?

Let it go.