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New Multigun Rule Proposal


Jim Norman

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And just how does a prop force a reload? You have a drm and a DPMS 45 rnd mag. Good for you and I have no problem with you using them.

You say "If you cant force a shooter to preform a mantaory reload in a field course with a pistol why should a rifle be different?"

Ah, could it be that just maybe it would be because rifles and pistols are different.

As Nik correctly points out, we have a defacto limit on the rounds in all pistol divisions and also on shotgun. How about this. In a pure rifle only match or the rifle component of a 3-gun tournament, we have no specified reloads. But where we are running multiple guns as in Multigun, where the rifles can hold 100 rounds, and pistols hold as many as 30 (Open) we would need one heck of a long course to have a shooter reload. I assume you don't have a problem with an initial load on the clock.

Oh, and just for the record, I never realiszed that reloading was bubblegum.

Jim

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I love an initial load "on the clock". This IS a skill not tested enough IMHO. I have used the IPSC Shotgun "At Trail" start in several rifle stages.

I have no problem with this type of test/course requirement. The IPSC "At Trail" start is a a very entertaining thing to toss at the unsuspecting competitor who thinks they are handy with their long gun ;-)

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So loading on the clock is OK. We have one area of agreement.

We can also limit the number of rounds in a division.

Limited and Tactical I would limit to 30, Open is just that, Open, run your Beta there. Heavy Metal is not currently recognized, but that probably should be 20 rounds.

See two areas where we agree.

If you would allow the insertion of the occasional reload in a field course, we'd a trifecta.

Jim

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So loading on the clock is OK. We have one area of agreement.

We can also limit the number of rounds in a division.

Limited and Tactical I would limit to 30, Open is just that, Open, run your Beta there. Heavy Metal is not currently recognized, but that probably should be 20 rounds.

See two areas where we agree.

If you would allow the insertion of the occasional reload in a field course, we'd a trifecta.

I have always felt the same on points 1 & 2.

3 still doesn't get my nod though. I kinda' think limiting rounds loaded to start (except for none at all, of course) is just over the "Freestyle" line and shouldn't be the way to engineer a running, or flat-footed reload into a field course.

If a way to compel a running, or flat-footed reload into a field course can be found that doesn't violate the "Freestyle" tenet, I would be with it too. I just don't see one at present.

Jim, 2 outa' 3 ain't bad at all :-)

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And just how does a prop force a reload? You have a drm and a DPMS 45 rnd mag. Good for you and I have no problem with you using them.

You say "If you cant force a shooter to preform a mantaory reload in a field course with a pistol why should a rifle be different?"

Ah, could it be that just maybe it would be because rifles and pistols are different.

As Nik correctly points out, we have a defacto limit on the rounds in all pistol divisions and also on shotgun. How about this. In a pure rifle only match or the rifle component of a 3-gun tournament, we have no specified reloads. But where we are running multiple guns as in Multigun, where the rifles can hold 100 rounds, and pistols hold as many as 30 (Open) we would need one heck of a long course to have a shooter reload. I assume you don't have a problem with an initial load on the clock.

Oh, and just for the record, I never realiszed that reloading was bubblegum.

Jim

Jim, try a real small port on the ground, in a corner. If you use a beta you can't engage all the targets, if you use a 30 rd all you can see in the scope or sights is plywood unless you cant the rifle, if you cant the rifle you wont get a sight picture because there is not enouge room for your face. A 20 rd mag works good, but 20 wont get you there, some where you will have to reload. I' seen that several times. Reloads are not bubble gum, unloaded starts are ok, mags in the bottom of a bucket of ice water are bubble gum. Rifles and handguns are diffrent, but field courses are field courses and free style is freestyle.-------Larry

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It's currently legal to specify an unloaded starting condition for the rifle ---- even something like "Chamber empty, bolt locked back, empty magazine locked into rifle" would pass the legality and freestyle test ----- right?

If the above is true, how does the illegal start condition of "Chamber empty, bolt locked back, magazine with only ten rounds loaded locked into rifle" violate the freestyle concept that the above unloaded start doesn't? What's the difference? You've got to go through the same actions on the clock? I'm really not trying to get anyone riled up ----- but I must be missing something.....

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The difference is that specifying a start condition for the gun does not effect engagement of the targets once you begin shooting, but limiting rounds loaded to start does effect the engagement of targets once you begin shooting. The first situation does not violate freestyle engagement, the second does.

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The difference is that specifying a start condition for the gun does not effect engagement of the targets once you begin shooting, but limiting rounds loaded to start does effect the engagement of targets once you begin shooting. The first situation does not violate freestyle engagement, the second does.

George,

no sale. after the beep you're free to dump the ten rounder and load whatever you want, if that's your plan to run the stage. Or you could engage the first array and...... either way it's you deciding how to engage the targets......

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George,

no sale. after the beep you're free to dump the ten rounder and load whatever you want, if that's your plan to run the stage. Or you could engage the first array and...... either way it's you deciding how to engage the targets......

So that's cool with you? We are now gonna have a bunch of starts where we dump a half loaded (or whatever) magazine and put in a new one? To me that sounds lame.

Limit the mags to 30 in Tactical/Limited and/or put up more targets. How about putting in more difficult ones so the average shooter will need to make-up shots?

What's so hard about that?

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George,

no sale. after the beep you're free to dump the ten rounder and load whatever you want, if that's your plan to run the stage. Or you could engage the first array and...... either way it's you deciding how to engage the targets......

So that's cool with you?

Sure --- it's freestyle. Otherwise people would be (rightly) screaming about mandatory reloads in field courses.
We are now gonna have a bunch of starts where we dump a half loaded (or whatever) magazine and put in a new one? To me that sounds lame.
That's because you haven't considered the possibilities ---- such as starting a shooter with 20 rounds for an 18 round stage that involves some difficult shots, or for a front half that requires 20 hits ---- situations in which the shooter will have to decide if he's gonna go for broke with what's in the gun, or take the more conservative approach and add more ammo. Everyone's free to solve the problem on their own. Match Directors will still have to decide whether there'll be a bunch of stages that start like that --- or one or two in a 9-12 stage match.....
Limit the mags to 30 in Tactical/Limited and/or put up more targets. How about putting in more difficult ones so the average shooter will need to make-up shots?

What's so hard about that?

It's tough to put in hard rifle shots when half your bays are 8 yards by 20 yards. (And yeah --- we manage to put challenging multigun stages in pits that size.) Want to hear the wailing now from all the shooters who've "invested" money in 45s and Betas, who shoot them in Tactical/Limited?
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I can't believe that folks are upset about adding a reload into an evolving discipline but cool with throwing away peoples investments in C-Mags. I would imagine that the open shooters could care less but as a Tactical shooter it would seriously piss me off. We're talking about changing Production rules in another forum and one of the main keys is enforcability. Good luck counting the number of shots fired on a LD stage with a lot of rounds fired. Or even a short assault course that's fast and furious.

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I can't believe that folks are upset about adding a reload into an evolving discipline but cool with throwing away peoples investments in C-Mags. I would imagine that the open shooters could care less but as a Tactical shooter it would seriously piss me off. We're talking about changing Production rules in another forum and one of the main keys is enforcability. Good luck counting the number of shots fired on a LD stage with a lot of rounds fired. Or even a short assault course that's fast and furious.

What's the difference when you have enforced reloads? The course designer would be able to tell you that you can only load it to X rounds or tell you you have to do a reload where there is no point in having the Beta at all. What's the utility of the Beta then?

If you would be pissed of with a 30 round rule... why aren't you pissed off at a mandatory reload rule or a X only rounds in a magazine rule? It results in the same thing right? Your Beta becomes $240 20, 30 or whatever round magazine.

And besides you can still use your Beta in Open or IMGA or other non-USPSA events.

Want to hear the wailing now from all the shooters who've "invested" money in 45s and Betas, who shoot them in Tactical/Limited?

Right... and you guys trying to kill freestyle aren't going to hear wailing from the people who want to keep freestyle?

As a person who "invested" in a Beta and a 40/45 you won't hear any wailing from me if you put a 30 round cap in Lim/Tactical. I can still use those mags in important IMGA or non-USPSA matches.

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I don't think that anybody that is posting on this thread is looking to kill freestyle. That is just not the case. (though, I do have a concern with that setting a precedent, or diverting from our roots...a bit).

What is being addressed is the lack of ability, that some/many match directors have to get a reload worked into the contest. (Without having to resort to a multiple-string, limited round, Virginia round count style of stage (but, maybe that is what those Standard Exercises are for.)

Let's look at this with a comparison to pistol.

In Open pistol, 170mm mags mean the shooter isn't tested with the reload too much. Sure, we can get them to have to do it with a 32 round cof. Nobody is getting a safe 32 in Open pistol.

In Limited pistol, one of the things that is Limited (more than open) is the length of the magazine. Some where around 20 rounds of 40S&W is the number. That still gives the shooter some options on when and where to reload. But, Limited shooters are forced to consider the reload a lot more than their Open counterparts.

The issue that has been brought up with rifle, is that there is no way to compel shooters into a reload within the confines of current course design and most USPSA shooting bays.

You aren't going to get match directors to continually set up 46 round rifle cof's. They take too long to shoot and score...let alone setup. Too much stuff to break. Not enough space. Etc. (And, then...everybody that wanted to win would look into a Beta.)

My philosophy for our type of shooting is: Competitive shooting, based on practical skills and equipment (or words to that end).

I have a strong belief in freestyle shooting. I also have a strong belief that we need to test basics skill sets. Reloading is such a skill. I think it ought to be able to be tested on "assault" style cof's. That just seems practical.

How do we get there?

- Allow for a mandatory reload within the cof ?

- Set a capacity limitation in "Limited" division ?

- Say forget it, and just use Standard Exercises? (everybody yawn?)

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Another option and it's a suggestion, not SO much my personal philosophy, but disallow Beta-mags and/or mags greater than whatever the current run of 45 round mags are.

A second tier to this woul be to limited Limited/Tactical division to 30 rounds and Open to 45's. Use length of mag, etc. if you want to (just the mag; i.e. not including any add-on base plates/AA's mag base).

This would seem to address most of the issues, within reason. Again, just a theory. I have no need for a mag greater than 40/45 rounds. That's for isolated occasions at that. Frankly, I'm more comfortable running my 30's as they're not overly cumbersome. It's for this reason and the just in case factor for some stages that I keep 20's in the bag. Just 'cause if it doesn't need it, I'll run the shorter mags.

Rich

ETA: To answer your question(s) Flex, I'm for allowing for a mandatory reload within a COF as well as restricting rounds in divisions (including Open).

Edited by uscbigdawg
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Flex makes a solid case for there being a round limit in Limited/Tactical as there is for the Pistols & Shotguns used in this Division. I feel the same way and there is solid precedent for this. 30 makes sense for Limited/Tac Division rifles as these are the prevalent magazine size for most platforms in use. I also feel HM oughta' be capped at 20 rounds following the typical .308 box mag size.

Relegating the Beta's and Extended Cap mags to USPSA Open and IMG match usage is fine with me. I already shoot Open using nothing but 30's by personal preference (I have and could use bigger sticks, but actually don't want to).

IMHO, the loophole methodology delineated by Nik is the least objectionable encroachment on Freestyle suggested so far. But I still think a better alternative to achieving this goal needs to be found rather than just busting a cap on the Freestyle tenet.

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IMHO, the loophole methodology delineated by Nik is the least objectionable encroachment on Freestyle suggested so far. But I still think a better alternative to achieving this goal needs to be found rather than just busting a cap on the Freestyle tenet.

I think the horse has rightly left the barn on equipment --- nobody thought about it, lots of people have spent money on Betas/45s/40s --- and shooting open with them isn't possible or desirable for all of them. I wouldn't be in favor of phasing in a capacity restriction now.

My approach, should be considered as an "This is allowed in course design" rule --- not as a this is mandated now on every stage in every match rule. If someone, like George, prefers to test reloads with standards type stages, and wants to leave the field courses to load what you can lift, that's cool with me. The rule also allows for some flexibility for clubs that do want to test the reload under field course conditions, or that have to deal with facility size limitations. I think it adds choices for how to run stages. Is there potential for abuse by stage designers? Sure, but bad stage designers will keep designing dopey stages ---- at least until they learn better......

I see freestyle as being about options that have consequences ---- and think that my approach leaves shooters with choices, where a mandatory reload doesn't......

Speaking of freestyle:

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

I see nothing in there about downloaded mags violating freestyle tenets, I do see that mandatory reloads would. (And yes --- I'm familiar with 8.1.4)

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I don't think that anybody that is posting on this thread is looking to kill freestyle. That is just not the case. (though, I do have a concern with that setting a precedent, or diverting from our roots...a bit).

What is being addressed is the lack of ability, that some/many match directors have to get a reload worked into the contest. (Without having to resort to a multiple-string, limited round, Virginia round count style of stage (but, maybe that is what those Standard Exercises are for.)

Let's look at this with a comparison to pistol.

In Open pistol, 170mm mags mean the shooter isn't tested with the reload too much. Sure, we can get them to have to do it with a 32 round cof. Nobody is getting a safe 32 in Open pistol.

In Limited pistol, one of the things that is Limited (more than open) is the length of the magazine. Some where around 20 rounds of 40S&W is the number. That still gives the shooter some options on when and where to reload. But, Limited shooters are forced to consider the reload a lot more than their Open counterparts.

The issue that has been brought up with rifle, is that there is no way to compel shooters into a reload within the confines of current course design and most USPSA shooting bays.

You aren't going to get match directors to continually set up 46 round rifle cof's. They take too long to shoot and score...let alone setup. Too much stuff to break. Not enough space. Etc. (And, then...everybody that wanted to win would look into a Beta.)

My philosophy for our type of shooting is: Competitive shooting, based on practical skills and equipment (or words to that end).

I have a strong belief in freestyle shooting. I also have a strong belief that we need to test basics skill sets. Reloading is such a skill. I think it ought to be tested be able to be tested on "assault" style cof's. That just seems practical.

How do we get there?

- Allow for a mandatory reload within the cof ?

- Set a capacity limitation in "Limited" division ?

- Say forget it, and just use Standard Exercises? (everybody yawn?)

I'd be for leaving them (the reload tests) in Virginia count/standard stages. I doesn't really seem fair to me to compare rifle mag capacity with that of a pistol. Rifles come with more capacity, what is wrong with using it? What is wrong with running stages with no reloads at all? Leave it up to the MD, if he/she wants to test reload skills, let them decide how to do within the match or stage structure using the existing rules.

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I see nothing in there about downloaded mags violating freestyle tenets, I do see that mandatory reloads would. (And yes --- I'm familiar with 8.1.4)

Why do you want to have downloaded mags?

Don't you want to make the person perform a mandatory reload? To force the shooter to possibly make a reload in a field course?

Can we agree that you want to get rid of "courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads" by having downloaded magazines?

Can we agree that you want to get rid of one of the elements of freestyle? Not in a direct manner... but in a round about manner where the result is the same?

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I'm with Nik. This is a very simple solution and is equitable to everyone. It forces folks to make decisions on how to address a stage given a 'simple' problem to over come.

It definitely is an easy way to introduce multiple solutions to a COF which is the first element to good stage design. Too while it 'restricts' freestyle in that you can start with however many rounds you can carry in the gun, it still allows for a variety of solutions.

Don't be afraid of a drill Gordon....it's only one piece of the match and it won't kill you 'cause guess what....everyone else has to do it too.

Rich

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Nothing too this. A lot of you guys have been right all along. All we have to do is take the 45s and betas away from the limited iron and tac guys, put a 34 rd COF out there and they will be a reloadin bunch of muthas. Ah crap, I just remembered the open guys have all them betas and 45s, dont they have to be tested too? Well I guess we either have to sell out just one little principal tenet, just one, this time. But remember how we all felt when Bill and Hilliary did this to us. And probaly the next one we sell out will be easier, just one more. Its all there guys, standards and course design, same as pistols, standards and course design.-------Larry

Edited by lkytx
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I see nothing in there about downloaded mags violating freestyle tenets, I do see that mandatory reloads would. (And yes --- I'm familiar with 8.1.4)

Why do you want to have downloaded mags?

Because I see a possibility for better stages of fire, and because I believe that reloading of fire arms is a vital part of any good test of shooting skills.
Don't you want to make the person perform a mandatory reload? To force the shooter to possibly make a reload in a field course?

No to the first question. Maybe to the second --- would depend on the stage design.

Can we agree that you want to get rid of "courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads" by having downloaded magazines?
No --- I want nothing to do with mandatory reloads. Reloads I'm in favor of, mandatory ones --- that are specifically spelled out and occur not at a place of the shooters choosing, I'm against.
Can we agree that you want to get rid of one of the elements of freestyle? Not in a direct manner... but in a round about manner where the result is the same?

No ---- I don't want to require mandatory reloads. Then again I think of mandatory reloads as one's that are specifically dictated, i.e. shoot these, then perform a mandatory reload, shoot those, perform another mandatory reload, etc. The other variant I've seen is After engaging the first target and prior to firing the last shot, perform a mandatory reload ---- both of these varieties limit the shooter's options.

Do I want to test reloading in a field course --- sure, but largely because we shoot an awful lot of multi-gun stages in small pits, where it's not possible to set up tons of targets, or to create tough enough shots that shooters will expend tons of ammo.

Which element of freestyle am I getting rid of by starting you with 20 rounds for a 20 round stage? You're free to reload whenever you want, you're free to solve the stage's shooting problem in any manner you desire? And keep in mind I want this as a stage design OPTION ---- not as something mandated for all stages. Please refer to the appropriate section of the rulebook when telling me which freestyle element I'm apparently in favor of getting rid of.....

Nothing too this. A lot of you guys have been right all along. All we have to do is take the 45s and betas away from the limited iron and tac guys, put a 34 rd COF out there and they will be a reloadin bunch of muthas. Ah crap, I just remembered the open guys have all them betas and 45s, dont they have to be tested too? Well I guess we either have to sell out just one little principal tenet, just one, this time. But remember how we all felt when Bill and Hilliary did this to us. And probaly the next one we sell out will be easier, just one more. Its all there guys, standards and course design, same as pistols, standards and course design.-------Larry

Just because we've always done things this way, doesn't necessarily mean that continuing in this fashion is still a prudent course of action.......

Club level exemption? That would help facilities challenged clubs in the East? For the record, we rarely use the current freestyle exemption for Level 1 matches, but sometimes it saves us....

Last but not least --- I neither want to take away anyone's mags, nor set-up a match where they couldn't be used on the majority of the stages. I do want the ability to more fully test the entire skill set, within the limits of the facility. Isn't that, at least in part, what we're about? Finding out what works?

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