New Multigun Rule Proposal

[Jim Norman]

Looks like we are all in the same songbook here. We want to make the shooters have to perform certain skills in the course of fire, but don't want to take away from freestyle.

We don't want to say reload HERE. We don't want to say no more than X rounds in your first magazine. (Although the original tenents of the sport required a flush fit magazione for the first magazine and allowed an extended magazine only after the reload).

I think that allowing the course designer to say that the shooter must reload one of his firearms before engaging the final target in the COF is OK. You can load however many rounds you want and you can reload where ever you want to, you just have to reload. I would rather see us allow a stipulation on which firearm must be reloaded, and even go so far as to stipulate that all firearms used must be reloaded at least once during the COF. No limits on rounds loaded and no direction as to where the reload needs to be performed.

How does this fit? Still freestyle and still load'em up cowboy, but allows us as course designers and match directors to insert skills into a COF without having to resort to 124 round courses of fire. I don't care if you have a Drum or a Belt, you still need to do one reload. Same with your pisotl, shoot your Glock with 10 round mags or your Para with 21+1, you still need to reload.

Would I do this on every COF? No, I don't think that we need to. THere are other options available, such as start with an empty gun, no mag inserted, all mags must come from the pouch or some other critertia, but this is one that is a "Natural" occurance, you have to reload!

Jim

[wide45]

No No No!

There is no reason to mandate a reload in a field course.

Run standards to test reloads.

[Jim Norman]

Wide45,

Please understand, we are talking about Multi-GUn here, not single gun. There is a difference! I am also not sayi9ng we must, but rather asking to be able to mandate a reload. Think about this, we are talking about a combined capacity of 123 rounds with a drum and a single standard cap pistol even more if we go to a Glock in minor!

It makes the competion more fun if it is more even. Not totally even. As I indicated, I don't care where you reload, only that you do and not always. Also, Remember, i can currently mandate that all firearms start bolt closed on an empty chamber no mag inserted, magazine in a bucket of Icewater. I can MAKE you load on the clock. I think that the solution I am suggesting here is much more fun.

No in a 3-gun as defined by USPSA where we shoot three separate matches, I will agree, set up a standards and force the reload there. But again this is not about 3-gun, but rather about multi-gun. And again, I am not demanding that all satge require this, only that as a designer I be allowed to insert it. It really isn't any different than making you open a door while carrying a briefcase, is it?

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

I think the horse has left the barn on what mags are legal to use. Putting in a 30 rounds loaded in any mag condition seems to be non-workable to me ----- I don't think may ROs will be able to count to 30 accurately through a multi-day match.....

If they do it for 10 rounds for Production/L10 and 8 rounds for SS I think they can figure out 30 rounds. They can figure out by looking at the thing and/or just counting the targets.

Hmmm, I've RO'd a shooter or two --- counting to ten isn't a problem. Counting to 30 probably isn't a problem either, for the first squad or two. I'm not willing to guarantee that the last squad of the day would go o.k. though --- gotta remember there's other stuff going on in addition to the counting. As far as looking at the targets goes --- that won't work in a freestyle stage, where different shooters run the stage totally differently. Throw some steel or some long/small targets into the mix --- the kind that many shooters throw multiple rounds at, and you've got serious potential for problems.

Jim's suggestion of a rule change that would permit stage designers to force a partial load, if they choose, would seem to be the logical alternative. If the stage is well designed --- say six to eight rounds from the first position --- and then some room to move, would it be that much of a problem if the gun ready condition specified ten round max loaded into rifle at start? Seems to me, we could force reloads and allow all types of mags to play......

I don't understand how you guys can be for mandatory mag changes and be against round limitations in magazines.

As a course designer I can just say load HERE at the 30 round limit. Next stage I can do it again... mandatory load HERE at the 30 round limit. I can have a de facto 30 round magazine limit. So you can have your $240 Beta-C and I can neuter your advantage by requiring you to reload to where you have no advantage.

I'd rather do it outright and tell you you can't have more than 30 rounds.

I think mandatory mag changes --- especially ones that require you to reload at a specific position are incompatible with freestyle. I think that changing the problem you need to solve by stipulating that you may only load 10 or 15 or 20 rounds at the start, is a fine solution, if we care about making reloading part of a match. Take a 50 round multi-gun stage that's split 28 rifle and 22 pistol and shot in that order. All that this proposed rule change would do is allow the course designer to stipulate an initial round count for rifle and/or pistol. It wouldn't require any designer to do so.

It allows the shooter to solve the problem freestyle ---- do I shoot this first array and then reload? Do I reload before ever firing a shot on the way to the first position? Do I reload after the first array or after the second? Let's see --- it's 20 required rifle hits, and I have 20 loaded --- do I reload or go 1 for 1? Options, this approach is all about giving shooter choices and options. Nothing's mandated by the course description after the buzzer goes off --- the shooter doesn't have to remember a mandatory reload, a reload in a certain place, and he's free to use whatever mags he want or needs to use.....

[itento]

IMHO, limiting rounds at start has no place in USPSA freestyle. Do not go down this slippery slope.

[Flexmoney]

It amazes me how many of our shooters don't know the definition of a "Standard Exercise".

[Nik Habicht]

IMHO, limiting rounds at start has no place in USPSA freestyle. Do not go down this slippery slope.

Tom,

educate me, please. What slippery slope?

[Jim Norman]

OK, I will modify my request for a rule here and put forth once again a bit of reasoning.

We have a rifle and pistol COF. in order to have a shooter reload on the clock, we have to run the rifle dry or run the pistol dry or run both dry. This is "Freestyle" I cannot specify a reload or a starting load.

I understand this. The problem is that in order to have rifle shooter reload in a field course which is quite a bit different from doing so in a "Standards Exercise" it currently requires that the rifle portion be at least 32 rounds. If the drums start showing up in large numbers, we will need 91- 101 rounds to make a shooter reload while doing all the other things he has to do in a Freestyle COF.

I would like to be able to insert a mandatory reload in the COF, somewhere. As in after the fiorst shot and before engaging the last rifle target the shooter must reload.

As I stated earlier, I can make you load on the clock already. All I have to do is start with empty guns and recover your magazines from some place, as in all reloads must come from the briefcase. Briefcase is on table with lid closed. (I remove the latches and screw the case down) or I could put your mags in a bucket of water. or...

I fail to see why allowing, NOT requiring a reload to be specified is so bad. As it currently stands we have four divisions that have an upper limit on the number of rounds you can load or shoot at anytime. L-10, Rev, Prod and Shotgun. All have some sort of mandated limit. I am not asking for that. Although I fail so see why allowing me to specify 7 rounds in the first mag or any other number would be the end of USPSA as we know it.

Allowing this makes for, in my opinion, a better more challenging match that is more fun and offers a leveler playing field.

Jim

[wide45]

It makes the competion more fun if it is more even.

Another way of saying that you like it when the other guy has to reload as much as you do.

Think about this, we are talking about a combined capacity of 123 rounds with a drum and a single standard cap pistol even more if we go to a Glock in minor!

So? How many times does an open gun have to reload in a typical Nationals?

I'm not buying it. It is a license for bad course design. We have too much of that now.

[warpspeed]

Unless the COF is a standards or classifier, leave the mandatory relaod crap out.

Set up the targets, put up the vision barriers/walls/doors, specify start position & lets rock!

[wide45]

We can fix this whole issue real quick.

Institute a M1 Garand only division. Plenty of reloads for everyone.

Now delete one of the other divisions so nobody has to choose.

Presto! Happiness all around.

[itento]

It makes the competion more fun if it is more even.

Nik, What I was refering to (and edited out of my original reply) is the tendancy to want to place restrictions on equipment in an attempt to right perceived advantages between Divisions (level the playing feild) In fact, what I think it tends to do is to place more emphasis on non-shooting actvities. The main reason I don't shoot IDPA is the restrictions on equipment and the choreographing of the stages. I don't want USPSA to go there.

[Nik Habicht]

It makes the competion more fun if it is more even.

Nik, What I was refering to (and edited out of my original reply) is the tendancy to want to place restrictions on equipment in an attempt to right perceived advantages between Divisions (level the playing feild) In fact, what I think it tends to do is to place more emphasis on non-shooting actvities. The main reason I don't shoot IDPA is the restrictions on equipment and the choreographing of the stages. I don't want USPSA to go there.

Tom,

for pistol I buy that argument ----- even though it sometimes keeps me from a specific type of challenge into a stage. Unless I'm wrong though, when we're talking Rifle, all divisions can already load to the same capacity ---- it's really only limited by the shooter's wallet. (No, I'm not jealous of people who can afford a beta-mag --- I have yet to see a stage where I was beat because someone else could load more rifle rounds than I could.) And given that everyone runs 30 rounders at least, if you want folks to reload on the clock, you either need to build a monster stage or throw in a standards stage.

I'm simply wondering if we're missing something ---- on the one hand we're supposed be the sport that's on the cutting edge of go fast technology and technique, to the point where the military's using our top guys as trainers; on the other hand we're willing to pretty much eliminate reloading as a valuable skill.

Imagine if development on El Presidente had stopped at 9 second runs ---- yeah I think shooters across the board are better than they were in 1976, but I'm sure some of that shaved time came off the reload. And I see very few people who are proficient at reloading the rifle.......

I'm not married to this idea --- I'm not writing my AD to propose that such a rule be created. I'm interested in discussing it thoroughly though.....

[Flexmoney]

I think Jim just wanted to test a skill (reloads), not level the field?

[Jim Norman]

I think Jim just wanted to test a skill (reloads), not level the field?

You got it. We should be pushing all skills in our courses. Shotgun already depends upon your reloading skills. I am not saying that we should go that far, only that we allow for a reload to be mandated ina COF.

Jim

[uscbigdawg]

I think Jim just wanted to test a skill (reloads), not level the field?

Ditto.

As a side note, I shot a stage in Arizona once that was 8 shots and was a lot of fun, 'cause you had to.....shoot! Every shooter started with 8 rounds in the gun. There were 8 US poppers. Box A and B in line with one another. Course description engage USP1-8, with a minimum of one popper per box. Gun is loaded and holstered with 8 rounds. All other mags are on the shooter.

Now this was more than a couple of years ago, but you should have seen the crash 'n' burn on this stage. (FWIW, I did pretty well on it, but I actually aimed...for those back home you know what I mean)

Rich

[itento]

I think Jim just wanted to test a skill (reloads)

We should be pushing all skills in our courses.

Gentlemen, The slope I don't want to go down is: shooting while on the move is a shooting skill so why not mandate firing while on the move in a course of fire; shooting from the kneeling position is a shooting skill so why not be able to mandate that position (or prone or sitting?); shooting weak handed is a shooting skill so why not be able to mandate that? I personally like the rules the way they currently are (except that I can't start with my bipod deployed, but I can live with that).

[Nik Habicht]

I think Jim just wanted to test a skill (reloads)

We should be pushing all skills in our courses.

Gentlemen, The slope I don't want to go down is: shooting while on the move is a shooting skill so why not mandate firing while on the move in a course of fire; shooting from the kneeling position is a shooting skill so why not be able to mandate that position (or prone or sitting?); shooting weak handed is a shooting skill so why not be able to mandate that? I personally like the rules the way they currently are (except that I can't start with my bipod deployed, but I can live with that).

We can build the stages in such a way most places, to force or strongly encourage the testing of all of those things: kneeling, prone, moving, weakhand, etc. Unless we build huge round count stages though, we can't test reloading. In addition the rules have to be able to work everywhere ---- in the places like USSA where the pits are probably 30x50 yards, and in places where the pits are more like 8 x 20 yards ---- like in the back at Old Bridge. I'm not suggesting that every stage should have that test applied ---- but 1-3 out of a nine stage match shouldn't kill anyone's idea of fun.

The places that design stages well now, will continue to do innovative and challenging things with stage design that are fun for the competitors to shoot. The places that are designing poorly now, will either learn, or die out from a lack of participation.....

[Religious Shooter]

We can build the stages in such a way most places, to force or strongly encourage the testing of all of those things: kneeling, prone, moving, weakhand, etc.

To me encouraging is OK. FORCING you to do so within an assault course is not.

Unless we build huge round count stages though, we can't test reloading.

Standards. Standards don't need huge round counts. You can make the shooter reload within the current rules of USPSA.

I think a lot of people don't like Standards because it doesn't let you think. Shoot this, this and this then reload and then shoot this then this and this. No freestyle at all. You guys want to introduce that into field courses?

[Nik Habicht]

We can build the stages in such a way most places, to force or strongly encourage the testing of all of those things: kneeling, prone, moving, weakhand, etc.

To me encouraging is OK. FORCING you to do so within an assault course is not.

Unless we build huge round count stages though, we can't test reloading.

Standards. Standards don't need huge round counts. You can make the shooter reload within the current rules of USPSA.

I think a lot of people don't like Standards because it doesn't let you think. Shoot this, this and this then reload and then shoot this then this and this. No freestyle at all. You guys want to introduce that into field courses?

We already force you to do certain things: make targets available through a prone port only forces the shooter to go prone. Place targets at five yard separations while placing something 50 yards from the start that can only be seen after you get there and open a port ---- well, I suppose you could stand and shoot everything and then run up. Weakhand --- simple, just put up a combination of vision barriers and walls that forces you to transition to the weakhand. If my bay's big enough --- I'll just make it a 50 round stage with steel at the end --- that way everyone other than the beta shooters will be doing a reload.

I don't want to introduce a mandatory reload. I want to limit your ammo capacity in your first magazine so that rifle reloads can be tested, and so we can present other interesting choices to the competitor ---- see my hypothetical 10 rifle target stage when you start with 20 rounds. You can save time by not doing the reload --- but you'll need to know you can make the shot, or you can choose to play it safe.......

Freestyle, at its zenith, has everyone shooting the targets on a stage in a different order, has the shooters literally crashing into each other during a walkthrough, because there are multiple right ways to shoot the stage......

[Jim Norman]

I think a lot of people don't like Standards because it doesn't let you think. Shoot this, this and this then reload and then shoot this then this and this. No freestyle at all. You guys want to introduce that into field courses?

No, I don't want to introduce Standards type reload mandates into a field course or remove thinking.

What I and a few others understand is that we want to introduce an additional challenge into the COF. You will have to think, probably more than you'd like to. Where to reload, how to do it and not drop the package I have you carrying, open the door before or after the reload, wait till the last target or do you reload between arrays?

This is very much within freestyle. Again, I can set up a COF that will require you to load both guns on the clock, I can effectively force you to go prone, I can make you shoot with your rifle rotated 90 degrees on its side, I can make you crawl on your belly through mud. Why are you all so upset that I'd like you to have to do a reload? Do some people have trouble with this basic skill?

Jim

[Religious Shooter]

No, I don't want to introduce Standards type reload mandates into a field course or remove thinking.

What I and a few others understand is that we want to introduce an additional challenge into the COF. You will have to think, probably more than you'd like to. Where to reload, how to do it and not drop the package I have you carrying, open the door before or after the reload, wait till the last target or do you reload between arrays?

This is very much within freestyle. Again, I can set up a COF that will require you to load both guns on the clock, I can effectively force you to go prone, I can make you shoot with your rifle rotated 90 degrees on its side, I can make you crawl on your belly through mud. Why are you all so upset that I'd like you to have to do a reload? Do some people have trouble with this basic skill?

Can I ASSume that the above wasn't meant to be insulting?

You can test the shooter's reloading ability all you want with Standards.

You cannot make me "crawl on [my] belly through mud". Give me a break. You have a course were you have to crawl mud and see if 10% of your shooters are stupid enough to do it.

How about making them crawl through your mud under barb wire. And heck have live rounds hitting near them.

If you think you can do all of those things to USPSA shooters then maybe that is why you don't get "why [we] are all upset that [you'd] like you to have to do a reload."

[Jim Norman]

No, I don't want to introduce Standards type reload mandates into a field course or remove thinking.

What I and a few others understand is that we want to introduce an additional challenge into the COF. You will have to think, probably more than you'd like to. Where to reload, how to do it and not drop the package I have you carrying, open the door before or after the reload, wait till the last target or do you reload between arrays?

This is very much within freestyle. Again, I can set up a COF that will require you to load both guns on the clock, I can effectively force you to go prone, I can make you shoot with your rifle rotated 90 degrees on its side, I can make you crawl on your belly through mud. Why are you all so upset that I'd like you to have to do a reload? Do some people have trouble with this basic skill?

Can I ASSume that the above wasn't meant to be insulting?

You can test the shooter's reloading ability all you want with Standards.

You cannot make me "crawl on [my] belly through mud". Give me a break. You have a course were you have to crawl mud and see if 10% of your shooters are stupid enough to do it.

How about making them crawl through your mud under barb wire. And heck have live rounds hitting near them.

If you think you can do all of those things to USPSA shooters then maybe that is why you don't get "why [we] are all upset that [you'd] like you to have to do a reload."

Lets see,

No I was asking if the reason that some people are so set against adding a SHOOTING CHALLENGE into a COF was that they feel that some people, obviously not themselves might be less than proficient in that SHOOTING SKILL.

As to crawling in the mud and other exercises:

Kyle Lambs match, the CTI, The NC recon.

Crawl under wire, climb ropes, vault walls, knee deep water, crawl under a bus or two.

This is 3-gun, and while the word is over used and wrongly used, it is the "Tactical" type of match that draws a full house. I wouldn't want to call most of them stupid either. Can I assume you really didn't mean to be insulting? And where did I or anyone mention shooting over the heads of competitors?

Many of us like the extremes, some of us like stand and shoots. To each his own.

I still have some gear with traces of North Carolina mud embedded. Tell me, if it starts to rain do you stop shooting? We stop when the targets either fail to stand up or they disappear in the rain as it becomes too heavy to see them.

In all seriousness, we have shot in 100 degress and 5 below, we shoot when the wind is so strong we can barely keep the stages up and in rain, mud and snow. On occasion we shoot in nice weather. We have canceled a match or two. If it is pouring rain to a point that we can't staple the targets and bag them before they tear, we will generally switch to stell, but as I say, we have on occasion canceled.

Jim

[uscbigdawg]

For goodness sakes, no one is telling you how to shoot a stage. They are adding in a twist to the stage, to (heaven forbid) improve your gun handling skills.

People that are simply saying, "shoot Standards" probably haven't shot standards in a while. You leave the choice of standards or not, without making a standard exercise mandatory in a match and you won't get it. See (or moreso hear) the moaning/groaning any time 50 yard standards is thrown into the mix.

I just see this as people being afraid to actually have to be tested in manipulating their tools. That's okay. This unwillingness to test themselves (see inability to perform), shows itself on match day when the first sign of adversity arises.

Like I said. Be afraid if you see my name as a stage designer. 32 rounds PER GUN (minimum) sounds about right.

Rich

Edited November 25, 2006 by uscbigdawg

[Religious Shooter]

As to crawling in the mud and other exercises:

Kyle Lambs match, the CTI, The NC recon.

Crawl under wire, climb ropes, vault walls, knee deep water, crawl under a bus or two.

This is 3-gun, and while the word is over used and wrongly used, it is the "Tactical" type of match that draws a full house. I wouldn't want to call most of them stupid either. Can I assume you really didn't mean to be insulting? And where did I or anyone mention shooting over the heads of competitors?

Kyle's is what an IMGA match? All of the stuff you wrote that they do... did any of it include purposely making them crawl through mud? Are you representing those matches correctly? Those matches make you purposely crawl through mud? As in the sun is shining and they take a hose and make a mudpit that they make the shooters crawl on their belly through the mud?

Anyways we are talking about USPSA. USPSA rules. What truly legit USPSA match requires you crawl through mud and "crawl under wire, climb ropes, vault walls, knee deep water, crawl under a bus or two?"

Maybe that's the problem in you not getting why you are getting resistance? You think those tactical matches is the same as USPSA matches?

I still have some gear with traces of North Carolina mud embedded. Tell me, if it starts to rain do you stop shooting? We stop when the targets either fail to stand up or they disappear in the rain as it becomes too heavy to see them.

In all seriousness, we have shot in 100 degress and 5 below, we shoot when the wind is so strong we can barely keep the stages up and in rain, mud and snow. On occasion we shoot in nice weather. We have canceled a match or two. If it is pouring rain to a point that we can't staple the targets and bag them before they tear, we will generally switch to stell, but as I say, we have on occasion canceled.

If it's an important enough match I don't stop shooting. I didn't stop at this year's SMM3G where it rained and snowed and it was in the 30-40's while I was geared for warmer weather. I didn't stop at RM3G when they had hard rain and I had to get on my belly in the mud for the best shot.

I might be misunderstanding you. When you wrote: "I can make you crawl on your belly through mud"... Do you would think that while shooting a match and rain began to fall and it got muddy... you consider that making people crawl through mud. Did you make the rain and snow?

No I was asking if the reason that some people are so set against adding a SHOOTING CHALLENGE into a COF was that they feel that some people, obviously not themselves might be less than proficient in that SHOOTING SKILL.

Nope. I think the people who are against your mandatory reloads are against it not because they can't reload. Not because they want to protect less proficient shooters. They are against it because it violates and/or encrouches on one of the tenets of USPSA.

Freestyle is one of the things that make USPSA USPA. It's a USPSA core value that I don't want diminished.

I get my fill of mandatory reloads and mandatory shooting while walking between A and B at the IMGA/IDPAish club that I shoot at.