New Multigun Rule Proposal

[George]

I don't want to fuel the flames, but I also believe a major tenet in USPSA style shooting is the concept of "Freestyle". I understand the need to test skills, but I am in the camp of "Use Standards" for doing this. This is all about USPSA rules and not being able to mandate reloads in a "Freestyle" COF is a USPSA rule I don't mind seeing left alone.

I am definitely NOT afraid of having ANY of my skill sets tested. I doubt more than a handful of folks here can beat me in a flat-footed on the clock AR reload. I think demanding to test this in a "Field Course" is a "Quixotic" goal and is best left for the IMG style matches where rules can be manipulated as needed and the lawyers can't complain. The USPSA rule structure is just fine as it is for large Multigun/3gun matches IMHO.

[chendersby]

Not going to happen if I had anything to say about it. oh wait I do have something to say about it.

Seriously, we have never even had a conversation about this on the Board. Not very likely we will either.

[Religious Shooter]

People that are simply saying, "shoot Standards" probably haven't shot standards in a while. You leave the choice of standards or not, without making a standard exercise mandatory in a match and you won't get it. See (or moreso hear) the moaning/groaning any time 50 yard standards is thrown into the mix.

Standards suck. I do that stuff during practice running drills. I gotta do it again in a match and on top of it all pay (more) money to do it? No thanks.

You guys want mandatory reloads in field courses in order to "challenge" or "improve" the shooter? I say why not do it with Standards? And then you say "people don't like standards".

So you guys want to be sneaky about it and force the "challenge" and "self improvement" into field courses?

If the shooters are indicating they don't want it by not wanting to shoot standards... why do you think they are going to want it in a field course?

I just see this as people being afraid to actually have to be tested in manipulating their tools. That's okay. This unwillingness to test themselves (see inability to perform), shows itself on match day when the first sign of adversity arises.

Pfftttt... you have to be joking. The whole match is a test. If the shooters didn't want to be tested they wouldn't have come in the first place. The manner in how you are tested is what's in question.

Do you want to be told when to reload? Shoot IMGA or maybe even IDPA. Heck they even tell you where to reload.

If you don't want to be told where and when to reload in an assault course shoot USPSA.

Like I said. Be afraid if you see my name as a stage designer. 32 rounds PER GUN (minimum) sounds about right.

Whatever. As long as you don't require mandatory reloads.

For goodness sakes, no one is telling you how to shoot a stage. They are adding in a twist to the stage, to (heaven forbid) improve your gun handling skills.

They are telling us how to shoot a stage. They are telling me I gotta reload when and where. They want to be sneaky about it by starting with a downloaded mag and saying that it's freestyle. When in effect it's doing the same thing. They are making a mandatory reload in effect legal in a field course.

[Jim Norman]

Stand and shoot standards a bore. Agreed. I don't like them even in practice sessions.

In a match, who wants a stage of stand a shoot? Figure at any good size match you are paying at least $10 and as much as $25 a stage.

All some us want is an OPTION to mandate a reload, somewhere in the COF. Like I said, I can force you to reload oin the clock before your first shoot. What difference if I make you reload somewhere before your last shot. There are several OPTIONS on the table. Mandate a reduced load to start the COF, Mandate a point at which you MUST reload, or Simply state that you must reload once, somewhere, anywhere, anytime after the buzzer and before engaging the last target.

I am not going to tell you when or where or how to reload. Only that you must. Further, it seems that even though you evidently shoot non-USPSA multigun matches. Then you complain about their forcing you to reload. Can I assume that you like to complain? or that you will still shoot a match even if it has things in it that you don't like?

As an aside, I can set up a stage that crosses a stream. I can put up a low wall that you have to crawl under and if it rains you will be in the mud. No I won't go get a hose, we don't have running water on our range.

Jim

[Chuck Anderson]

I can't believe that this is such a hot button topic. For crying out loud it's a reload, not the end of the world. I get the point Jim was making with making us crawl in the mud, etc. If you haven't yet, you either live in a very dry state, or you just don't shoot three gun much. I think most of this thread started with the question of C-Mags and their effect on the Limited/Tactical Division. Heavy Metal is now the only Division where a shooter would have to bring more than one Magazine to complete the average IPSC/USPSA match. I really don't want to shoot a sport that completely does away with reloading the rifle as a skill. Gordon, you say you're not against doing reloads (practice etc.) but not in a match. (you don't want a standards course, and you don't want them in field courses). I do. Shooters want different things out of matches. I personally would like a shooting challenge that includes a variety of skills challenges. These would include, short, medium and long distance courses, different shooting positions, shooting on the move, and oh yeah, reloading.

I know everyone is saying that this mandatory reload is an IMGA thing but I honestly don't remember doing one at an IMGA rules match. Not to say I didn't, I just don't remember the requirement. And I've shot a couple of them. It may be different at a local level. I shoot a local 3-Gun match that has their own rules and they mandate reloads. I just look at it as a skills test.

[uscbigdawg]

Thanks Chuck. As usual a calm voice of reason. And someone else that gets it.

It's a reload. Pure and simple. You can do it anywhere at any time. All Jim and I are saying is having the option as a course designer. If nothing else, it keeps folks honest with the Betas. 50 round rifle stage requires a reload for everyone....without a Beta. Why not allow a blurp in the stage description that just says something to the effect of, 'shooter must perform a reload before the last shot is fired'?

Rich

[George]

Why not allow a blurp in the stage description that just says something to the effect of, 'shooter must perform a reload before the last shot is fired

Because it's not "Freestyle" and "Freestyle" is a basic tenet of USPSA style shooting. Chris Endersby seems to get it from the USPSA rules viewpoint and he shoots a LOT of different 3gun matches ;-)

[Flexmoney]

Testing shooting skills is also a basic tenet of USPSA shooting.

If we aren't getting that done, then we need to figure out how to do so.

[Jim Norman]

George, USPSA has just barely gotten its feet wet in 3-gun or as it is now called "Multi-Gun" Did you stop to think that maybe some of the people that have been doing this for years just might have it right?

I agree that you need to leave the problem to be solved by the shooter. That is why I originally offered three different solutions and settled on the one that some of us have gotten and others sadly have not.

Allow the course designer the option of mandating a reload inthe COF, after the timer and before the last shot is fired. Heck I really don't care if you engage every target with sufficeint rounds to score, if you haven't reloaded, yet, do it now and fire your last shot in a safe direction. Or you can drop the mag at the buzzer and reload before you ever engage RT-1.

Trust me on this, the sky will not fall if you have to reload your rifle on the clock.

And again, I will have you loading on the clock. One way or the other, I will get you loading on the clock.

All magazines MUST come from proper magazine pouches, start condition of your rifle will be lying on the table, muzzle point down range, bolt closed on an empty chamber with the hammer down. Upon Start Signal enage all targets as available.

OR

Shooter must reload after the start signal, but before the last target is engaged, One proceedural per shoot for failure to perform reload before engaging final target.

Got to thinking, allowing you to reload after the last target is only 10 points and that may be worth the several seconds it may take to reload, this way you have to at least try.

Or we can simply shoot Local rules, not support USPSA and keep doing what we have always done.

I would rahter have USPSA bend just a tiny bit here and bring more shooters under the umbrella. Much better clout with sponsors and maybe some local governments.

Jim

[George]

I don't mind re-loading on the clock at all. I don't mind being tested any way the course designer wants to do it as long as it follows the rules. I think a Standards COF is the "right" way to test this basic skill set according to the existing USPSA rules. I like the USPSA rules just the way they are. I have never seen this skill test mandated in a course description at any large IMG rules run match (every one I have been to anyway). I don't see testing this skill set in a field course as being an important issue. If it can be tested within the existing rules in a Standards COF, it ain't broke and it doesn't need fixin'. I think a Standards COF is fine to include in ANY match to test specific skill sets. I don't think Standards COF's deter customers. I think poorly designed stages of any type do, as do other issues, but not Standards COF's specifically, no, no, no. Anyone who is afraid of Standards IS hiding something in their skill set. I welcome Standards COF's in any venue if they are properly designed to test the skill set intended to be tested ;-)

BTW JIM, I have been doing THIS since before 1990. Newbie I ain't, dude!

Testing shooting skills is also a basic tenet of USPSA shooting.

- Standards are for testing specific shooting skills!

If we aren't getting that done, then we need to figure out how to do so.

- again, Standards can test specific shooting skills!

[Flexmoney]

Can we discuss this with everybody getting so worked up?

[Religious Shooter]

Can we discuss this with everybody getting so worked up?

I think not everybody is worked up yet. You guys need to comply with Flexmoney. It's mandatory.

[uscbigdawg]

George,

No one is arguing that the skills aren't tested in Standards. However, how often, especially at the club level is standards EVER shot? I'd venture close to never. I know at Richmond in the near 10 years of going there, it's been done fewer than 5 times of all the matches I've shot.

That said, no point in beating a dead horse. Course designers, crank up the round count 'cause it's the only way we're going to "force" a reload. Of course, I could just pull out some old SOF stages and smoke the crap out of everyone with 3 guns and 30 shots.

Rich

[George]

Rich, you haven't been to any of the MG matches at Richmond in the last few years and I ALWAYS feature a Standard, or two ;-)

We have been using a Prezidente' variant to test reload skill (among other skill sets) at every single match I have run for the last 3 years. Standards are a great tool to have in your stage design tool box. They featured a LD rifle standards at Area 1 3G several years ago and the 05 USMG in Vegas had a rifle Standards COF.

Any match I run will always feature a balanced set of short, medium and long courses along with a Standards excercise, or two even.

[Religious Shooter]

I am not going to tell you when or where or how to reload. Only that you must. Further, it seems that even though you evidently shoot non-USPSA multigun matches. Then you complain about their forcing you to reload. Can I assume that you like to complain? or that you will still shoot a match even if it has things in it that you don't like?

Are you saying that because I am rebutting you that I like to complain? So you brought up this whole thing... do you like to complain? You complainer you. Mister I gotta know when the Nationals is months and months ahead.

To answer your question... yes I will shoot a match if it has things in it that I don't like. It's a matter of shooting 3gun or not doing 3Gun. For example if a match has a standards stage among kick-ass assault courses I am going to shoot that match even though it has things (standards) that I don't like. And frankly if it was all standards I would still shoot it because I spent the gas $ to get there.

But if there was an option to go someplace else and do three gun with USPSA rules on the same day and at about the same distance I'd go to the USPSA club instead of the match that I have been going to.

I don't mind that the "crap" is at IMGA/IDPA. I don't want you to spread it to USPSA.

As an aside, I can set up a stage that crosses a stream. I can put up a low wall that you have to crawl under and if it rains you will be in the mud. No I won't go get a hose, we don't have running water on our range.

That's inadvertant crawling through mud. I have done that in matches and in training.

The way you initially presented it you were indicating that you could intentionally make the shooter crawl through mud... as in break out the hose and making the mudpit and it's an intended "prop" in a USPSA match.

Gordon, you say you're not against doing reloads (practice etc.) but not in a match. (you don't want a standards course, and you don't want them in field courses).

To be clear I don't want mandatory reloads in field courses.

I don't mind mandatory reloads in a standards course. And if the match I came to had a standards course I will shoot it. But I would prefer not to.

I do. Shooters want different things out of matches. I personally would like a shooting challenge that includes a variety of skills challenges. These would include, short, medium and long distance courses, different shooting positions, shooting on the move, and oh yeah, reloading.

Who doesn't?

Just don't make it mandatory that you need to reload in a field course.

I know everyone is saying that this mandatory reload is an IMGA thing but I honestly don't remember doing one at an IMGA rules match. Not to say I didn't, I just don't remember the requirement. And I've shot a couple of them. It may be different at a local level. I shoot a local 3-Gun match that has their own rules and they mandate reloads. I just look at it as a skills test.

There is generally no prohibition in the various flavors of IMGA that prohibits mandatory reloads. Take SMM3G for example

http://www.smm3gun.com/IMA%20Rules%20October-25-2006-1.pdf

Nothing in their rules prohibit mandatory reloads. If a course designer wanted to they could. And KurtM says it's legal in IMGA.

In contrast USPSA/IPSC specifically does not make it legal:

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

[Jim Norman]

I am not going to tell you when or where or how to reload. Only that you must. Further, it seems that even though you evidently shoot non-USPSA multigun matches. Then you complain about their forcing you to reload. Can I assume that you like to complain? or that you will still shoot a match even if it has things in it that you don't like?

Are you saying that because I am rebutting you that I like to complain? So you brought up this whole thing... do you like to complain? You complainer you. Mister I gotta know when the Nationals is months and months ahead.

To answer your question... yes I will shoot a match if it has things in it that I don't like. It's a matter of shooting 3gun or not doing 3Gun. For example if a match has a standards stage among kick-ass assault courses I am going to shoot that match even though it has things (standards) that I don't like. And frankly if it was all standards I would still shoot it because I spent the gas $ to get there.

But if there was an option to go someplace else and do three gun with USPSA rules on the same day and at about the same distance I'd go to the USPSA club instead of the match that I have been going to.

I don't mind that the "crap" is at IMGA/IDPA. I don't want you to spread it to USPSA.

As an aside, I can set up a stage that crosses a stream. I can put up a low wall that you have to crawl under and if it rains you will be in the mud. No I won't go get a hose, we don't have running water on our range.

That's inadvertant crawling through mud. I have done that in matches and in training.

The way you initially presented it you were indicating that you could intentionally make the shooter crawl through mud... as in break out the hose and making the mudpit and it's an intended "prop" in a USPSA match.

Gordon, you say you're not against doing reloads (practice etc.) but not in a match. (you don't want a standards course, and you don't want them in field courses).

To be clear I don't want mandatory reloads in field courses.

I don't mind mandatory reloads in a standards course. And if the match I came to had a standards course I will shoot it. But I would prefer not to.

I do. Shooters want different things out of matches. I personally would like a shooting challenge that includes a variety of skills challenges. These would include, short, medium and long distance courses, different shooting positions, shooting on the move, and oh yeah, reloading.

Who doesn't?

Just don't make it mandatory that you need to reload in a field course.

I know everyone is saying that this mandatory reload is an IMGA thing but I honestly don't remember doing one at an IMGA rules match. Not to say I didn't, I just don't remember the requirement. And I've shot a couple of them. It may be different at a local level. I shoot a local 3-Gun match that has their own rules and they mandate reloads. I just look at it as a skills test.

There is generally no prohibition in the various flavors of IMGA that prohibits mandatory reloads. Take SMM3G for example

http://www.smm3gun.com/IMA%20Rules%20October-25-2006-1.pdf

Nothing in their rules prohibit mandatory reloads. If a course designer wanted to they could. And KurtM says it's legal in IMGA.

In contrast USPSA/IPSC specifically does not make it legal:

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or stances.

Good for IPSC, but then again IPSC doesn't shoot Multi-Gun, they shoot a three gun tournament. They also have a lot of other funky rules, many of which form the basis of the move that is currently underway to run USPSA as USAPSA and run IPSC rules matches as a separate entity.

I can see where you may infer that I would make mud specifically for you to crawl. What I can do is set up a match that has a normally damp spot and if it rains, I can leave it set up that way. There is another thread running that would allow a WSB to state that the shooter cannot leave the FFZ and cut across corners. This is the same sort of thing, You can either go through the mud, or you can get a procedural for not following the WSB.

Calling the rules and stage designs found in other disciplines “Crap” is not really helping you make your point. There area a lot of people out there that think that USPSA/IPSC shooters are a bunch of gaming squirrels. Not really something we want to start here.

But let us endeavor to remain on topic here. We are talking about requiring a reload someplace in a COF in a Multigun match. You say you are not against them so long as they take place is a Standards COF. I am sorry, but I fail to see where including a reload after the start and before engaging the last target is going to ruin the whole of USPSA. In a Standards COF, you are mandating generally that you reload between sides of a barricade, or changing from standing to kneeling or some other very narrowly defined movement. What I am championing is allowing, NOT requiring a reload to be inserted where YOU the SHOOTER have to THINK about when and where it will be most advantageous. I would think that this actually meets the definition of freestyle.

Oh, and before you go on about me directing this at you, Please understand, I may chose to respond to a particular post in order to make a point to all that may not be in agreement with me. Don’t think I am singling you out. Earth is such a large place and I doubt I can find your Nom de Plume in the local phone book.

And yes, I did need to know when the Nationals would be so that I can schedule our clubs annual shotgun, rifle and three-gun matches. I also need to schedule my company’s Saturday staffing. It is much simpler if I know when the big matches are so I don’t have to go back and change everything 5-6 times.

So anyway, I will agree if you will to the following. Give those of us that want to include a reload in a Multigun COF the ability to do so and I promise you, if I ever shoot a match wherever it may be that you are a course designer, match director, stage builder, I promise if there is no required reload in any COF other than a Standards, that I won’t complain.

How is that?

Jim

[Flexmoney]

We have been using a Prezidente' variant to test reload skill (among other skill sets) at every single match I have run for the last 3 years. Standards are a great tool to have in your stage design tool box.

Ummm...if it's a take-off of the El Prez,then it is NOT a Standards.

Once again, I am left wondering how many people know the definition.

(Sorry if that seems blunt.)

[ima45dv8]

Multiple strings.

[George]

You are correct Flex, the prez is a Virginia Count stage and not necessarily a Standards, my potential misnomer. A VC stage is however, a legal COF to mandate a reload within the course description, whereas a field course is not.

BTW, USPSA 9.2.x states that a Standards can be scored Virginia Count. In fact it states that ONLY a Standards can be scored using Virginia Count.

BTW, BTW, where exactly on earth does the exact definition of a Standards exist? It ain't in the rulebook as far as I can tell.

[Nik Habicht]

Multiple strings.

....possibly combined with fixed time ----- and mandatory reloads if the strings are more than six rounds......

[George]

Yeah, multiple strings can be a comstock stage too.

Would someone please define a Standards EXACTLY!

[Larry White]

Chapter 6 of the green book, Match Structure. Look at 6.1.2. Why is it that some folks are so hung up on rules, but every time they get close to one that dosent fit what they want they want to change it. If you cant force a shooter to preform a mantaory reload in a field course with a pistol why should a rifle be diffrent. Stage selection and design are tools, use them, but leave the bubble gum out of it.-------Larry

[Nik Habicht]

If you cant force a shooter to preform a mantaory reload in a field course with a pistol why should a rifle be diffrent. Larry

Larry,

we've got capacity limits in all pistol divisions dictated by either the size limitations on the equipment (170/140mm) or by the division criteria. In the rifle divisions there are no such limitations ---- everyone's free to use a beta. I'm principally interested in having the conversation ----- to make sure this is what we really want to do, having made a conscious decision, rather than just winding up there by accident, because we followed the pistol rules we started with.

I also find it interesting that we have capacity limits on shotgun that's division dependent. Should rifle get an exemption, and be the sole firearms category that differs from the others?

[Larry White]

If you cant force a shooter to preform a mantaory reload in a field course with a pistol why should a rifle be diffrent. Larry

Larry,

we've got capacity limits in all pistol divisions dictated by either the size limitations on the equipment (170/140mm) or by the division criteria. In the rifle divisions there are no such limitations ---- everyone's free to use a beta. I'm principally interested in having the conversation ----- to make sure this is what we really want to do, having made a conscious decision, rather than just winding up there by accident, because we followed the pistol rules we started with.

I also find it interesting that we have capacity limits on shotgun that's division dependent. Should rifle get an exemption, and be the sole firearms category that differs from the others?

Nik, I think we are already here, by accident or on purpose, here we are. I agree with almost everthing you said and am not opposed to mandatory reloads, in standards, but freestyle is, after all, freestyle. Just for the conversion, I have a beta and hate the thing, I think I've used it 2 or 3 times in 3 years. I also have a DPMS 45 rd and use it quite a bit, but seems like I usually wind up with a twin pac of 30s in the rifle. I have shot a lot of stages where I did not reload but I dont think I've ever shot a match of any size that I did'nt reload the rifle at some point. Use standards or prop design to force reloads but leave free style alone.------Larry

[BigDave]

Testing shooting skills is also a basic tenet of USPSA shooting.

If we aren't getting that done, then we need to figure out how to do so.

Amen.

I think one of the problems here is that we're trying to manage rifle COF's with handgun rules. I think it is a problem that the only way you can effectively test the skill of reloading a rifle is to have a Classifier type COF or jack the round count way up. The 2nd drives me insane . Ballistic orgasms are bad juju and mostly a waste of ammo, time and targets.

It is time to evolve some new ideas (thanks Bill Hicks) on rifle rules. The argument that you alienate certain types of rifles with magazine rules doesn't wash for me. The best shooters will always find the best way to solve the shooting test within the rules, including the equipment rules - whatever they are. Asking for a way to effectively test rifle reloading skills in field course is far, far, far from unreasonable.