New Multigun Rule Proposal

[George]

Sanctioned was what we used long ago

I have trouble remembering all the new-fangled stuff too. A lot of changes took place during the layoff I took from shooting (92-98) Limited was created (used to be called Tactical/Stock Gun), Freestyle was adopted as a basic tenet, and terminologies changed a good bit.

Call me an old fogey and you will be just about right ;-)

I asked USPSA about approved classifier stages for Rifle to use at the 2006 Bay Area Rifle Championship and was left without an answer last year about rifle classifier stages.

Any bets on whether Sedro Wooley would be willing to "Recognize/Permit" this match given what I am doing with scoring and recognizing the extra divisions? I kinda' doubt it

_______________________________________________________________

** Update, this year I have managed to put this match on the USPSA map with a few small changes. The 2007 Bay Area Rifle Championship will be a USPSA Level I match. I would have to lose the specialty categories if I went for Level II so we stand pat at Level I for this year.

2007 BARC

[Neil Beverley]

I asked USPSA about approved classifier stages for Rifle to use at the 2006 Bay Area Rifle Championship and was left without an answer last year about running some rifle classifier stages.

Any bets on whether Sedro Wooley would be willing to "Recognize/Permit" this match given what I am doing with scoring and recognizing the extra divisions? I kinda' doubt it.

George

This is kinda what I was alluding to in an earlier post. In Regions where the disciplines are active SG and R deserve and need their own specific champions. The UKPSA created a Shotgun Commission with its own Chairman way back in the early 80s. This helped forge and drive that element of IPSC shooting in the UK. I was Chairman of the Commission for a while many, many years ago.

IPSC is now embracing both SG & R as separate disciplines, more so in the last 5-6 years than at any previous time in its history. All credit to the IPSC President, Nick Alexakos, for his support. Both disciplines are growing steadily, SG slightly faster than rifle and the future is looking very good. There will be the very first IPSC SG World Championships in 2010. There will be an IPSC World 3 Gun Tournament in 2009 (Ecuador). I would love to see the US getting more involved in these 2 disciplines than seems to be the case at present. I'd love to see a USPSA Ladies SG team and a Junior team in 2010 as well as teams for each division. The guys that have travelled over to IPSC SG matches in particular seem to have had a ball.

I can't sort it out for you but maybe you guys can?

Historical snippit - UKPSA Claim to fame (other than WSX) - Did you know than we had a UKPSA member who was President of IPSC for a couple of years around 1980?

[George]

I am going to press the issue again this year for the BARC and see if I can get USPSA recognition and maybe even run an "Approved" rifle classifier to boot.

I too would also like to see practical rifle and shotgun as standalone matches flourish under USPSA tutelage over here.

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** Update, this year I have managed to put this match on the USPSA map with a few small changes. The 2007 Bay Area Rifle Championship will be a USPSA Level I match. I would have to lose the specialty categories if I went for Level II so we stand pat at Level I for this year.

2007 BARC

[Jim Norman]

Jim

I'm not sure I'm interpreting your post properly but if I am ...... where does it say in the rules that you can't move in a Standard Exercise? Certainly if the briefing says, for example, "shoot prone" then it pretty much makes it a static shoot. But otherwise a certain amount of movement is permitted.

Based upon this, I would say that any field course could, assuming it meets the round count requirments, be converted into a "Standards". Interesting.

[George]

Based upon this, I would say that any field course could, assuming it meets the round count requirments, be converted into a "Standards". Interesting

I know that every rifle standards at recent major matches I have shot has featured fast position changing within each string (Vegas 05, Area 1 03). I have never seen a Standards that involved moving from one shooting area to another, only movement within a shooting area. I haven't yet found a rule delineating this, but I will bet that a single, very large "shooting area" with a number of positions/ports/etc. inside of it may get the job done here legally ;-)

[Jim Norman]

I asked USPSA about approved classifier stages for Rifle to use at the 2006 Bay Area Rifle Championship and was left without an answer about running some rifle classifier stages.

Any bets on whether Sedro Wooley would be willing to "Recognize/Permit" this match given what I am doing with scoring and recognizing the extra divisions? I kinda' doubt it.

George

This is kinda what I was alluding to in an earlier post. In Regions where the disciplines are active SG and R deserve and need their own specific champions. The UKPSA created a Shotgun Commission with its own Chairman way back in the early 80s. This helped forge and drive that element of IPSC shooting in the UK. I was Chairman of the Commission for a while many, many years ago.

IPSC is now embracing both SG & R as separate disciplines, more so in the last 5-6 years than at any previous time in its history. All credit to the IPSC President, Nick Alexakos, for his support. Both disciplines are growing steadily, SG slightly faster than rifle and the future is looking very good. There will be the very first IPSC SG World Championships in 2010. There will be an IPSC World 3 Gun Tournament in 2009 (Ecuador). I would love to see the US getting more involved in these 2 disciplines than seems to be the case at present. I'd love to see a USPSA Ladies SG team and a Junior team in 2010 as well as teams for each division. The guys that have travelled over to IPSC SG matches in particular seem to have had a ball.

I can't sort it out for you but maybe you guys can?

Historical snippit - UKPSA Claim to fame (other than WSX) - Did you know than we had a UKPSA member who was President of IPSC for a couple of years around 1980?

Neil,

We have SG only, Rifle only and HG only matches here and they are fun. They are much easier to set up and run than a Multigun. Multigun creates situations that just don't occure in single gun matches. There is tha scoring of different powerfactors on the same stage, there is the abandonment of a gun along the way during a COF. THere is the problem we have been discussing of how to include a wider skill set into a COF largely due to the much higher capacity of and no restriction on the capacity of a Rifle.

One item that has not been addressed by the USPSA rules is how to address a make up shot with a differnt platform. Simply put, I have a jamg on my rifle and use my pistol to finsh the stage including certain rifle targets, the pistol is a major PF while the rifle is a minor. do I score the hits by the target? or the firearm? What if the situation were reversed, a broken, jammed pistol, major PF and I finish the COF with a minor PF rifle? How do we address that? The minor rifel is about the same PF and a major pistol, while a major pistol barely makes rifle minor!

There is a lot to address here that is not as simple as seen at first pass. Each deserves its own thread. This one was about allowing a reload to be required in a Mutigun COF.

Jim

[George]

This one was about allowing a reload to be required in a Mutigun COF.

Also totally applicable to a rifle only COF situation. In fact, it is the rifle that this mess is all about, not that lil' ole' P shooter, or even the "Gauge" although the "Gauge" is more applicable than the pistol in this whole "mandatory rifle reload in a field course" mess ;-)

[Religious Shooter]

Right. That puts us back to Standards as the only way to test a reload.

I've been guilty of it... but from now on let's try to be correct:

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position or stance, however, mandatory reloads must never be required in other Long Courses.

1.1.5.3 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may specify shooting with the strong hand or weak hand unsupported. The specified hand must be used exclusively from the point stipulated for the remainder of the string or stage.

So for example... Hammertime is a Classifier. Hence you can mandate reloads.

[Flexmoney]

RS,

I am at a loss. I wasn't aware of any classifiers other than for pistol?

What is Hammertime?

[Neil Beverley]

I'm not aware of any Classifiers for SG or R that will conform to the rulebook definition of Classifier.

[George]

I'm not aware of any Classifiers for SG or R that will conform to the rulebook definition of Classifier.

Stage 12 from the 2005 USPSA MG Nationals was a Rifle Standards and almost all of the top GM's in the USA shot it. It could/should count as one because we HAVE a HHF for it now and additionally, 150+ of the most ardent 3gunners in the US have posted scores on it now too.

Yes, we have at least one ready to go rifle classifier right there if Sedro Wooley would post the scores and write it up properly.

The LD rifle stage from the 2002 Area 1 3gun Championship was a decent standards COF and could be reduced to 100 yards to enable being run at most clubs.

A rifle, or shotgun Prez will work fine as classifier stages so there's two more. Just need to run one of each at the next MG Nationals and BAM!, You have HHF's for them.

We do have classifiers, we just aren't using them, nor are we designing and implementing more. Why not is the question I ask. I would think it is not implemented because no one wants to get the ball rolling and do the implementing. It has a low prioority and doesn't/won't generate any additional income right away, if at all compared to the costs of implementing. I think I understand ;-/

[Neil Beverley]

George

Like I said .............

SG & R need (and deserve) a (separate to HG) champion to progress the disciplines.

[George]

Neal, I may not be the person to get the total job done, but I WILL be approaching the home office by sometime late next week to see what it would take to get the 2007 BARC recognized. I would love to include a classifier stage, maybe two if I could get some approved/recognized/published.

Paying mission count is within the match budget and I would like it to be at least a Level I match for at least all of the 3 main divisions as they will be run and scored by the book.

It's only the manual rifle and cowboy divisions where I am slicing and dicing with the rules to get some new and interesting things happening. I am recognizing Sporting Rifle in the manual rifle division (think about the recent "Why MOR" thread) and adding a division for Cowboy shooters to use their lever actions in.

I want classifiers for the long guns and think once we have good data on the long guns, just adding/averaging this with the existing pistol rankings will give us a decent multigun rating too.

This is a drift, but is right in line with what is being discussed at this point in the drift ;-)

I think USPSA multigun needs USPSA rifle and shotgun to become well developed on their own at the club level. Individual and combined rifle/shotgun only matches (we call these Long Gun matches at our club) are only about half the work of multigun, or 3gun matches of the equivalent stage count (IME anyway). If a lot more long gun events were run at the club level, we would have a lot more folks geared up/ready for 3gun/multigun.

Just my .0235 on one way to grow/fix this a little in USPSA.

[Religious Shooter]

RS,

I am at a loss. I wasn't aware of any classifiers other than for pistol?

What is Hammertime?

Hammertime is a classifier.

What I was pointing out is that there is another avenue that is legal that hasn't been mentioned or pursued.

If you take a look at all the pistol classifiers and...

...throw out all the ones that have steel targets

...mandate that the starts have to be facing downrange for safety

...etc.

and you have a bunch slew of classifiers that have been used for years. Yes the ranges will be short. But you have a start.

Just ask the BOD to consider the above "rule" --- make pistol classifiers with the above caveats legal for rifle or even shotgun.

Also we can start making up some rifle specific COF and submit them to the NROI (or whoever makes the decision) for consideration to make the COF a classifier.

[George]

Heck, any rifle/shotgun only stage that has been run at any 3gun/MG nationals already has HHF's available. What is really needed is existing stages with existing HHF's for the actual guns in question. The stages that have been run with pistol cannot be relevant as classifiers until they have been shot by a requisite number of GM's and a HHF established. Any new stages would have to be run and scored before they can really be used to arbite class.

I mentioned this earlier. Run a repeateble single gun stage at the USMG next year and BAM, instant classifier because every notable GM in the country has shot it. Take any stage from a past 3g/MG nationals that can be diagramed out and BAM! another classifier.

The way exists, it just seems to be the will at Wooley that needs to be found.

[uscbigdawg]

Just checked out the USPSA Classifier book to confirm, no classifier by the name of Hammer Time. Now if you're referring to the old classifier from the early/mid 90's that hasn't been a classifier/stage for some time, well, that's another story.

FWIW. Standing in Box A, facing uprange, wrists above shoulders. On signal, turn and engage T1-4 w/ two rounds each, perform a reload and then engage T5-8 w/ two rounds each. The way I remember it is a par time of 6 seconds.

The target array was T1-4, No Shoot, T5-8, all either straight away or forming a small curve at about 10-15 yards.

It was a fun stage and you could really burn it down or if you went smooth, executed it quite clean. In my beginning of IPSC, I shot this stage squadded with Jethro D. at SWPL. He engaged all the targets, did the reload, cleared his pistol and was holstering as the timer went off. Pretty sweet.

On top of what I've suggested, I'm pretty well opposed to individual rifle and SG classifications (now). The basic reason is just more stuff to track, etc. Too, a competitor's pistol classification is a pretty good representation of their abilities, on whatever platform, relative to the field.

Rich

[Religious Shooter]

I'm not saying we should necessarily track the results. That's another issue.

I'm saying we should be allowed to shoot existing pistol classifiers as legal rifle stages with (the above) safety modifications. All it takes is a sentence or two or maybe four in the new Multi-Gun/3Gun rules updates.

It doesn't violate the current rules, our values and it's fairly low in cost and resources --- if USPSA doesn't track it. Just let us shoot them as legit rifle classifiers.

If Hammertime isn't legal anymore... well that just plain sucks.

I cited Hammertime because it was 1) FUN and 2) it was a legal stage that required a mandatory reload. But o' well.

[Grump]

Since an outstandingly accurate pistol will group 1 inch 5- or 10-round groups at 25 yards, and an outstandingly accurate rifle will do similar 1-inch groups at 100 yards,

I LIKE the idea of using Classifiers,

AND,

I think anything copied from the pistol classifiers should be shot at 4x the pistol distance.

It seems a small thing to sacrifice Field Course fire and movement in exchange for getting around the "no mandatory reloads" rule.

[Flexmoney]

There are no rifle classifiers.

The are no shotgun classifiers.

There are no multi-gun classifiers.

Pistol has classifiers. Even some of them wouldn't be legal under the current rules if they weren't classifiers and didn't have the exemption from Freestyle that classifiers and Standard Exercises have.

If you are shooting SG and shoot a cof that is a pistol classifier, that doesn't make that stage a classifier, it is just another stage.

If you guys are suggesting SG and Rifle classifiers, that is fine. You might be putting the cart before the horse a bit...and that certainly isn't the topic of this discussion.

[George]

There are no rifle classifiers.

The are no shotgun classifiers.

There are no multi-gun classifiers.

That is exactly why we need some ;-)

If you have rifle and shotgun classes, you don't need MG ones because the sum of the rifle, pistol and shotgun classifications should be the MG one (if you ARE gonna' have MG classes that is).

If you guys are suggesting SG and Rifle classifiers, that is fine.

Yes, I am suggesting them.

You might be putting the cart before the horse a bit...

I think it is about time this cart was hitched up to a horse.

and that certainly isn't the topic of this discussion.

It IS the topic of the drift we are in here at the moment so it seems that it is germaine to the discussion. I know there is another thread on that going here. I may show up there real soon now with some more on this topic.

[BigDave]

I know there is another thread on that going here. I may show up there real soon now with some more on this topic.

There must be a way for course designers to test rifle reloading skills in comstock long courses other than astronomical round counts.

We have magazine length or capacity restrictions for all divisions in both handgun and shotgun. We need one for rifle in Limited and Tactical. Leave Open alone.

and

We need a set of rifle and shotgun classifiers - now.

Edited December 2, 2006 by BigDave

[George]

We need a set of rifle and shotgun classifiers - now.

Yes we do!

We have magazine length or capacity restrictions for all divisions in both handgun and shotgun. We need one for rifle in Limited and Tactical. Leave Open alone

I could not agree more with this way of handling the field course reload desire as opposed to allowing mandatory reloads in comstock long courses.

[Larry White]

We need a set of rifle and shotgun classifiers - now.

Yes we do!

We have magazine length or capacity restrictions for all divisions in both handgun and shotgun. We need one for rifle in Limited and Tactical. Leave Open alone

I could not agree more with this way of handling the field course reload desire as opposed to allowing mandatory reloads in comstock long courses.

Then how do you test the reload ability of open shooters?---------Larry

[BigDave]

Larry - I'm in that camp that believes that open should be just that - open. They can be hit during classifiers (when and if those ever get here.)

I don't shoot Open, so I didn't think it was right for me to be throwing my $0.02 on issues in a division I don't shoot in.

[Religious Shooter]

You can test the reloading abilities of Open rifle shooters with classifiers. Just like you do with pistol.