New Multigun Rule Proposal

[George]

I'm in that camp that believes that open should be just that - open

Me 2

[Larry White]

You can test the reloading abilities of Open rifle shooters with classifiers. Just like you do with pistol.

Then we can test the reload abilities of limited and tac shooters with classifiers. Just like you do with pistol. Good gosh folks, speedy standards, string 1,with pistol, engage T1 thru 3 with 2 rds each, preform a mandatory reload, engage T1 thru 4 with 2 rds each. Show clear and holster. String 2, with rifle engage T5 thru 7 with 2 rds each, preform a mandatory reload and and engage T5 thru 7 with 2 rds each. Set T1 thur 4 at 15 yds, T5 thur 8 at 50yds or what ever distance you choose. Make it vigrina count or fixed time, or make them wear a funny hat or whatever you choose, there are a bunch of COFs out there, just adapt them or write some more.-------Larry

Edited December 5, 2006 by lkytx

[wide45]

You can test the reloading abilities of Open rifle shooters with classifiers. Just like you do with pistol.

Why won't that work for everyone else?

[Religious Shooter]

It will. I specifically said Open because Larry was asking about how Open shooters would be tested.

At least that's what I thought he was asking.

[Larry White]

I do agree the we may need rifle and shotgun classifers and some way to tie them all together, but we dont have them. And if we started today we wouldnt have them for some time. But I think we can skin this cat today without a slew of new classifers or changing a bunch of rules..-------Larry

Edited December 4, 2006 by lkytx

[mike_pinto]

Let 'em all use Beta's. Most folks I see shooting with a Beta, shoot like they have a Beta!

I am all for reloads as well though. We do it in pistol, we do it in shotgun. I designed the last COF at our club and made a rifle reload mandatory (between strings in the prone position!!)

I am also for no classification in 3-gun/multi-gun. Shoot against everyone in your division and may the best one win. Just cause I am not a GM pistoleer, I can hold my own with a shotgun and rifle. Which means to me if I want to be competitive, I need to learn how to shoot the little gun better.

Exactly why I prefer IMG matches over USPSA.

Just my $.02 and a little thread drift/hijack..

Mike

No, Not that one.

[Jim Norman]

Mike,

What you did in your stage design goes beyond what I want to do. All I want is the ability to specify that some where, someplace, shooter's choice, you have to reload after the buzzer and before engaging the last target. I don't care so much about Beta's. I think that they probably should not be allowed in Limited or Tactical, but with a required reload, I think that we are OK.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Let 'em all use Beta's. Most folks I see shooting with a Beta, shoot like they have a Beta!

lol...

Before long, some mechanical master will be tuning those Betas so they run like a top. It will cost enough that you could have bought half an AR with the monies.

Which might be cool for Open...where the toys push the envelope. But, for Limited and Tactical? Think of the devastation that will cause on the local economy. What will happen to the beer vendors and strippers when all the shooters have already blown their wad getting their "big stick Master Beta tune job".

on that note....I'm outta hereee.

[Scott R]

The sky is falling!!!

[mike_pinto]

Mike,

What you did in your stage design goes beyond what I want to do. All I want is the ability to specify that some where, someplace, shooter's choice, you have to reload after the buzzer and before engaging the last target. I don't care so much about Beta's. I think that they probably should not be allowed in Limited or Tactical, but with a required reload, I think that we are OK.

Jim

It was an interesting idea, and makes a feller think about it. We use alot of reloads at our club in all of the guns. We shoot with KurtM though, go figure!

Mike

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, have ever thought about saying in the "start position" load with 10 rds in your magazine. I believe that if you put it in the start position, the shooter must obey, then just have enough targets out there so that they have to do a reload.

That should accomplish your goal, without requiring any rule changes.

trapr

[Flexmoney]

Pretty sure there is a rule against that too. (probably posts 6 or 8 pages back...)

[bigbrowndog]

Flex, I don't see why there would be a rule prohibiting it, but it wouldn't suprise me. As my good buddy Pinto, used to say, REMEMBER As Always........I'm Rong. Does anyone know for sure, quote me the rule please, Because I really think its OK.

Trapr

[Jim Norman]

8.1.4 Unless complying with a Division requirement (see Appendices),

a competitor must not be restricted on the number of rounds to be

loaded or reloaded in a handgun. Written stage briefings may

only stipulate when the firearm is to be loaded or when mandatory

reloads are required, when permitted under Rule 1.1.5.2.

1.1.5 Freestyle – IPSC matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and

to shoot targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire

must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position

or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions

may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be

constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions or

stances.

1.1.5.1 Level I and Level II matches are not required to comply

strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

US1.1.5.1 Level I matches are not required to comply strictly with the

freestyle requirements or round count limitations.

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory

reloads and may dictate a shooting position or stance, however,

mandatory reloads must never be required in other

Long Courses.

Based upon the above, it appears that we could mandate a reload in a Level One Match.

We may also be allowed to mandate a number of rounds to be loaded. All we need is to make this acceptable in Multi-gun in at all levels!

Jim

[Chriss Grube]

Why do we have to keep trying to come up with new silly rules to try and limit everything? It keeps coming back to what this person or that person thinks is tactical. A few years ago irons on a combat rifle was "tactical" and optics were too fragile......now optics are fine in combat. The whole point of a 30+ round mag is to not have to reload very often. With this goofing thinking (must be a Jersey thing about mag limits) the military should still be using M1's.

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, i thought this was something you wanted to implement, at your local USPSA matches. Now, you want Multi-gun to comply as well??????

I agree with Mr. Grube on this one.

Trapr

[Jim Norman]

Easy there guys.

This is not about the capability of the equipment to perform. No, I don't think the military should revert to the M1 or the Krag.

This is about the SPORT that we shoot. The rules I posted earlier are from the current USPSA book. They are from the pistol rules, but are referenced in the Multi-Gun rules.

Bigbrowndog, YOU asked about the rules that prohibit the mandating of less than a full magazine load, I provided the rule. I went a bit further and based upon my interpratation of hte rules, a Club or Level One match is exempt from the freestyle rules. How exempt is a bit of a question. It appears that we COULD mandate a 10 round initial load, or even a mandatory reload.

BBD, you said

Jim, have ever thought about saying in the "start position" load with 10 rds in your magazine. I believe that if you put it in the start position, the shooter must obey, then just have enough targets out there so that they have to do a reload.

That should accomplish your goal, without requiring any rule changes.

trapr

I pointed out why that is not allowed, but also where it MAY be allowed.

All I am looking for is to be ALLOWED, to insert a reload in a COF from time to time. That means that at a match, you MAY have to reload your rifle somewhere in a COF at some time after the start signal and prior to engaging the last target. I do not want this to be mandated, I don't want a capacity limit. I'll accept the Beta in Limited. I just want you to occasionally have to reload. It keeps the sport a bit more sane from a cost point of view. It also makes you have to be able to perform a basic skill from time to time without resorting to a Standards COF, the least freestyle part of the sport. Either this, or we are required to run shooters to a 90-100 round minimum COF to have everyone have to do a reload. A bit difficult when the maximum SUGGESTED round count is 40 in Multi-gun.

Guys, I really don't think the sky is falling here.

Oh, and just for S&G, I may shoot a rifle side match or two next year with a Garand, or maybe an M1A. I think that the 03A3 might be a bit much.

Jim

[ima45dv8]

Jim,

I have asked our Dir. of NROI about the Level 1 Exemption US1.1.5.1 and his explanation was that it allows local matches to set requirements like, "You must engage T1-T4 from within shooting Box A", and similar restrictions, on how the presented challenge is solved. It also allows us to design a CoF with greater than 32 rounds required. I think it's a bit of a stretch to consider that the rules governing course construction would apply to the number of rounds allowed in a competitor's gun.

Edited December 13, 2006 by ima45dv8

[Flexmoney]

I agree.

[mike_pinto]

I got it, make it a 102 round stage!! That way there has to be a reload somewhere!! Maybe at my next month's match. Trapr, come on up.

Realistically though, shoot a match under IMG rules and implement whatever you want. That is what we do in OKC. We have enough folks that compete all year long all over the country that we adhere, most of the time, to the SMM3G and Benning rules. Every now and again we throw a 40+ round stage in..

That would take care of the rule issue!!

Mike with my $.01

Edited December 13, 2006 by mike_pinto

[bigbrowndog]

Jim, i'm not saying I didn't ask for the rule. I was refering to your last statment, that you wanted multi gun to comply at ALL levels.

When I read your initial remarks, albeit several posts earlier. I thought your intention was to get your local shooters to do reloads. My remarks were aimed at that level,(local).

I personally feel the current method of heads up shooting, and lack of classes works. If you're trying to get people to utilize certain skill sets (reloading) with the rifle, it seems to me that if those people want to do better at matches, then they will do that skill set on thier own. Even owning a Beta mag, doesn't mean you will use it all the time. I just shot the AMU match and never once used my Beta, because there were places that I could load to new 30 rounder, and not lose time. I recall seeing one shooter use a Beta in the match, and that was on a 20 round speed shoot, that was kinda funny to watch, but I understood his reasons.

Requiring mandatory reloads in a field course, (excuse me if thats not proper verbage) is just dumb(IMO). The place for those is in speed shoots, and thats why those are used so heavily for classifiers.

[Flexmoney]

I'm not sure I really get the practicality of a standing reload (which is what we almost always...and most likely will...end up with while shooting classifiers and standard exercises).

Shooting Production (10 round mags) this last year or two has showed me the value of hitting a reload on the move. That is a practical test, IMO. Can we get there other ways...probably. Will we...not likely.

[uscbigdawg]

I've grown to see both sides of this discussion.

I agree with Jim that there "should" be a means of testing our skills at reloading. It's a basic skill and it is unfortunate that by the current rules it is not possible. Call it laziness or fear on those that oppose it, or simply that they are citing the existing rules. Either comes down to perception. The fact is though they are the rules.

The other side of the coin is freestyle is freestyle is freestyle. The price we 'gain'(?) for not being able to mandate various 'do this here', 'do that there' is that we can leave the solution up to the shooter. In pistol this is nice as it is up to them where they will plan reloads, engage certain arrays, etc. No one wants to compromise this as it has opened up stage design to the artists that do it right to give us stages with multiple solutions all of which are "winnable" means to an end.

What should be considered is that even in "freestyle" we still have limitations and that and the individual divisions is what I believe is at Jim's argument and probably what I agree with the most. We limit the number of targets per array. We limit the ability to engage an entire stage from one position. And we limit the length of magazines and number of rounds that can be shot/reloaded from/to the gun by division. These are all rules too.

What Jim is suggesting is that similar rules be in place to provide tests of basic skills. Pure and simple. In a 25 round field course, designed well, you'll still probably have Open guns reloading. Why? There's an opportunity to do so without a significant drop in time. Yes, while the choice to reload is on the shooter vs. "needing" the rounds or "satisfying a course requirement", requiring a reload ANYWHERE during a course of fire, as Jim's suggesting, is still their solution to the problem.

In the end, it will require a concession on the rules for "freestyle" in rifle. Is it contrary to "freestyle" in pistol and shotgun? Yes. But the rifle is its own platform and arguably warrants its own set of rules. So why not a magazine restriction on ammo between the divisions OR allowing stage designers to allow for basic skills to be tested (like a reload anywhere in the course of fire between the first and last shot fired) OR.....Both?

In the end, we'll still shoot all the matches regardless of the rules 'cause we're infected with the worst disease of all.....we're 3-Gunners.

Rich

[Jim Norman]

Lets do this point by point.

Jim, i'm not saying I didn't ask for the rule. I was refering to your last statment, that you wanted multi gun to comply at ALL levels.

True, to a point. What I would like is for us to be able to mandate a reload. Occasionally.

When I read your initial remarks, albeit several posts earlier. I thought your intention was to get your local shooters to do reloads. My remarks were aimed at that level,(local).

Yes, but what would be so bad about ALLOWING the course designers to insert a required reload? Keep in mind, I am not asking for a reload that is mandated as after 10 rounds, or at the door. I am asking only that at some point after the start signal, but before engaging the last target. I don’t care if at eh buzzer, you drop a fully loaded mag, reload and start shooting or you reload at the last position, or anywhere in between. This is still free style. We mandate all sorts of restrictions on free style. You can’t shoot from anywhere, only from within the FFZ, you can’t load more than 10 in L10 or production, Revolver allows you to only shoot 6 regardless of the capacity.

I personally feel the current method of heads up shooting, and lack of classes works.

Agreed, we shoot this way, although we do pay out on a modified Lewis system.

If you're trying to get people to utilize certain skill sets (reloading) with the rifle, it seems to me that if those people want to do better at matches, then they will do that skill set on thier own. Even owning a Beta mag, doesn't mean you will use it all the time. I just shot the AMU match and never once used my Beta, because there were places that I could load to new 30 rounder, and not lose time. I recall seeing one shooter use a Beta in the match, and that was on a 20 round speed shoot, that was kinda funny to watch, but I understood his reasons.

People tend to practice the skills that they need at a match. If we don’t require a reload with a rifle, why should we practice it? People get really good reloading their shotguns, why? Because they HAVE TO!

Requiring mandatory reloads in a field course, (excuse me if thats not proper verbage) is just dumb (IMO). The place for those is in speed shoots, and thats why those are used so heavily for classifiers.

Ah, we don’t have speed shoots anymore, we have “Short Courses”. Besides, we can’t mandate a reload here either, unless it is a “Standards” course. We will have to disagree that a required reload is “Dumb” I feel it is a part of shooting and a skill that has a place in a match. True enough there are other rule sets that are available besides USPSA, but USPSA is what we are promoting here. There are some good things out there that we could use, there are fun challenging courses of fire that we cannot use because the rules we shoot under in USPSA don’t allow for them. I have shoot matches where you had a staged pistol, slide locked back, two magazines with a total of 14 rounds between them, 6 & 8 as I remember, you shot your rifle and shotgun, then recovered the pistol from a “body”, loaded and engaged 6 targets with two rounds each. You didn’t know which mag had what number of rounds, you either reloaded at 6 or 8 rounds from slidelock. Fair since everyone had to do it. Realistic in that a recovered gun might not have a full load and recovered mags might also be short. We can’t do this in USPSA 3-gun.

My opinion is that a lot of people are only interested in high speed shooting, not in their overall skill sets. I guess a good question would be; Do we agree that this type of stage might be fun? Do we agree that it would test your abilities? Same goes for my idea of a mandated reload. Would being told that at some point, your choice, in the COF, you had to reload be such a bad thing? We aren’t mandating a reload at slidelock, or with retention or reloading behind cover. All I am asking is that we be ALLOWED to require the shooter to reload at some point, again at his discretion.

Jim

[kurtm]

Jim, as the match director for a couple of major matches I ALLOW you to do it! See, now your good to go

In all seriousness, I say just do it, if they want to shoot they will. If they don't they won't! Don't let a few silly rules ruin a good time. Let the USPSA run thier thing and IMGA run thiers, and just enjoy. I have forced many a reload and the matches I run still do and guess what they still fill right up to the limit. Half the guys whinning here don't 3-gun, and those that do, I have seen at IMGA matches so I guess they don't care either. I have a novel idea... let's limit this to having fun and you can decide your own capacity for that! KURT