Carmoney Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 To quote a line from Jeff Cooper, "It is a brilliant concept egregiously consummated." USPSA has tried several ways of attracting participation in the PS: prize money and no prize money, including Nationals and not including Nationals, etc. One of the biggest problems is that USPSA does friggin' nothing to advertise and market the thing. To my knowledge, the winners of the 2006 Point Series were never even recognized in Front Sight magazine! I think the reality is shooters don't want to pay much to play the Series, and USPSA won't commit its own resources to make it worthwhile. Steve, I think you're correct that the PS needs industry sponsorship if it's ever going to flourish. I think it's best to shitcan it for a couple years, assign somebody to revamp the program and gather support and sponsorship, and then bring it back with a big marketing push, separate website, real prizes, etc. Hell, maybe just automatically include the entire membership in the Series just like the "Top 20" lists. We obviously have the computer capability to keep track of things. Done correctly, it would be the best way to showcase the shooters who are truly the best in each division and class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 FWIW, Area 4 was listed as a PS match, but had nobody sign up as a PS shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 FWIW, Area 4 was listed as a PS match, but had nobody sign up as a PS shooter. You're not supposed to have to sign up as a PS shooter. That's supposed to happen automatically. Did you mean that none of the registered PS shooters showed up and shot Area 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Provan Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 I have one question about the calculations. The policy reads as follows Calculation of Winner: The order of finish will be calculated by use of the percentage totals for each qualifying match. By way of example, a match winner would receive 100 points and a member who shot 80.257 % would receive 80.257 points. Points received from the Area Matches will be multiplied by two, and points received from State, Sectional, or other matches would not be multiplied. A member can participate in, as many matches as they desire but the point totals from all matches shall include only the following: Points from the highest finish at no more than two area matches Points from the highest finish at no more than four state or sectional matches. Points from the highest finish at no more than two other USPSA Level III matches. They only using one area match. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 I thought the series was a worthwhile effort that added a little spice to the shooting season. The people that were in it followed the results very closely. It made for some good rivalry and competition among shooters from different parts of the country that never face each other in matches due to geographical issues. There were several different formats and formulas tried to get more involvement but it never materialized. Perhaps it would have made it with a little more tweaking. Perhaps not. What's right or wrong with the series has now become a moot point. The BOD has voted to kill it and that's the end of it. R.I.P. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted December 10, 2006 Share Posted December 10, 2006 It was good, but had microscopic participation in Production this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted December 11, 2006 Share Posted December 11, 2006 They only using one area match. Why? This is easy. The table in the pointerator was not properly set. I have fixed this and tonites scan should remedy this solution. If you see something that seems to be inconsistent with policy, email dave@uspsa.org and it will be investigated. You can also post your observation here, however, there is no assurance that doing so will result in follow-up by USPSA staff. The point series is governed by the official policy for the current year. If you see something that doesn't look right - ask. The posting period will be held for a period of time early next year (the exact dates to be announced by HQ), after which no changes to the standings will be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRNinTX Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 The problem I see with the PS in its current configuration is very apparent when you look at the Limited Division results. No offense to Mr. Provan but: Manny wins six Area matches, one St/Sec match, and never finishes below 96% in any PS match he shoots, however in the current system he is the 3rd best shooter in USPSA. (Go figure) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherwyn Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Now I'm confused... 2005 points series counted 5 matches - Nationals, 1 Area, 2 sectionals, 1 other. The only change listed in BOD minutes is the Nationals being dropped. That would make the 2006 series count 4 matches, but the current results show up to 8. Checking all divisions shows only 4 people with 8 matches counted. Then if you read the 2006 policy, "Points from the highest finish..." which would indicate only 3 matches counted. Yes the series is broken (need more proof than the fact that I was leading open?). A true National series would have very few competitors - would need to include at least 5 Area matches as well as the Nationals. Only way that might work would be on top of a series that happens independently in each area. Just my thought that it might work at that level. Sherwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Provan Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 I agree that it is broken. Let us look at the NASCAR point series. Every team races at every race and points are figured on drivers finish. USPSA looks at x number of matches. Each shooters finish is based on who won the match. I am sure my scores would be lower if I shot agianst Manny for all of my matches. Not to say the compitition at the matches I shot was not worthy, it is. If for example Robby shot all of the area matches on the west coast and won and Manny did the same in the centeral/eastern states we could have a tie. Michigan is going to have a MI Points Series. That might work better because all of the matches are easily accessable for all of the MI shooters. This might even the field out a little bit. We will see at this time next year. I alot of respect for Manny B. I am sure that if Manny shot one more "other" match he would have earned the 30 points need to take first overall. Awards are for Class only, not overall. Manny B is still the high GM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38superman Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Okay,.... I'm sorry but I don't get it. When something is broken there are two choices. Fix it or toss it. The BOD took a vote and decided to kill it. Why the ongoing discussion about how to rearrange the deck chairs on a ship that already sunk? I don't see the BOD reversing a decision that was almost unanimous. Am I wrong? Tls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) This is a pretty good example of a no win situation. The original concept allegedly failed because it included too many matches, including the Nationals, that too many people couldn't make. The revised concept included matches that a shooter could reasonably make, if they made a little effort, and took out the Nationals. Both failed, due to lack of interest. There was an idea floated to make all matches Point Series matches and assess a "tax" of perhaps 10 bucks, on each entry fee to fund the Point Series. This would have produced some serious money for the series, but was rejected because it forced everyone into a series when they may not have wished to enter. Regardless those who shot the most matches had the best chance to win. Until someone can build a better mousetrap for this, it will remain dead. Gary Edited December 12, 2006 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (edited) Now hold on a minute...When we (about 10 of us from Michigan) all signed up for the Points Series, we read the following: * Points from the highest finish at no more than two area matches * Points from the highest finish at no more than four state or sectional matches. * Points from the highest finish at no more than two other USPSA Level III matches. We understood that to mean that only ONE (1) Area, ONE (1) "Other" and TWO (2) "State or Sectional matches" would be counting and that they were "capping" the ammount of matches you could shoot to attain that high score (your best of) to TWO (2) Area matches, TWO Other matches and FOUR (4) State or Sectional matches to prevent someone "purchasing" a title. However, according to the wording, they should be pulling one of the state matches and it would be a 3-match series. What I'm getting at is, that they all didn't count for score...only the best four matches. I had a long phone discussion with Area 6 Director Charles Bond over this on the telephone back in February/March, and he told me that it was a four-match series...not a "shoot as many as you want and they all count" situation. The BoD needs to look into this, as there is obviously a miscommunication somewhere. Since Charles was the person who "founded" this series...I would think he knows what he is talking about. Wassup??? For the record, I actually moved UP in the standings, so I am not some disgruntled individual. I just do not think the rules are being followed in calculating the results. This wasn't meant to be a "shoot 'til ya puke contest". Edited December 12, 2006 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBlaster Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 Wouldn't the Nationals count as a Other match? since its a level 3 match? Manny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 12, 2006 Share Posted December 12, 2006 (with regards to the PS) Manny, I don't have a dog in this... But, the phrase "other" match, to my understanding, has always meant one of the stand-alone matches. Like, the Targeting Education, Summer Blast, Florida Open, etc. (not necessarily those examples, as there is a Level III requirement) Further, each Area (Director) was allowed to approve one (only one?) match within their Area to be an "other" match. I suppose a Nationals could have been approved as an "other" match. I think it would have had to have been done before the match...with approval from the AD that had domain over the match location...and, at the request of the MD. It would then have to have been the one and only "other" match within the area. Just being a LIII was the first hurdle for the match, not automatic inclusion. (huh? anybody follow that?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Now hold on a minute...When we (about 10 of us from Michigan) all signed up for the Points Series, we read the following: * Points from the highest finish at no more than two area matches * Points from the highest finish at no more than four state or sectional matches. * Points from the highest finish at no more than two other USPSA Level III matches. We understood that to mean that only ONE (1) Area, ONE (1) "Other" and TWO (2) "State or Sectional matches" would be counting Hell Jeff, I don't know where you're reading that two state or sectional matches would be scored. Judging by the plain language of the rules it sure looks to me like only the highest state or sectional match finish would count. The formula should simply be (A*2) + S + O = PS% That's what it says in the policies posted online. Awards are for Class only, not overall. No, there is a plaque and certificate sent out each year in recognition of the overall "Point Series Champion" in each division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 (edited) Now hold on a minute...When we (about 10 of us from Michigan) all signed up for the Points Series, we read the following: * Points from the highest finish at no more than two area matches * Points from the highest finish at no more than four state or sectional matches. * Points from the highest finish at no more than two other USPSA Level III matches. We understood that to mean that only ONE (1) Area, ONE (1) "Other" and TWO (2) "State or Sectional matches" would be counting Hell Jeff, I don't know where you're reading that two state or sectional matches would be scored. Judging by the plain language of the rules it sure looks to me like only the highest state or sectional match finish would count. The formula should simply be (A*2) + S + O = PS% That's what it says in the policies posted online. This just in from USPSA HQ: The Point Series Championship counts no more than 4 matches... which are: *Best finish at a area match. *Best 2 finishes at a state or sectional match. *Best finish at [a "other" USPSA" Level III match. I hope this helps clear things up. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Staci Pulver :-) USPSA Receptionist Point Series Coordinator Junior Raffle Coordinator Office 360-855-2245 Fax 360-855-0380 staci@uspsa.org Now THAT is how I understood it was to be run. Edited December 13, 2006 by Barrettone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Alrighty then. I guess they'll run the software again tonight and fix it.......again! Ol' EB will have to make himself another plaque........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpcdvc Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 Now hold on a minute...When we (about 10 of us from Michigan) all signed up for the Points Series, we read the following: * Points from the highest finish at no more than two area matches * Points from the highest finish at no more than four state or sectional matches. * Points from the highest finish at no more than two other USPSA Level III matches. We understood that to mean that only ONE (1) Area, ONE (1) "Other" and TWO (2) "State or Sectional matches" would be counting Hell Jeff, I don't know where you're reading that two state or sectional matches would be scored. Judging by the plain language of the rules it sure looks to me like only the highest state or sectional match finish would count. The formula should simply be (A*2) + S + O = PS% That's what it says in the policies posted online. This just in from USPSA HQ: The Point Series Championship counts no more than 4 matches... which are: *Best finish at a area match. *Best 2 finishes at a state or sectional match. *Best finish at [a "other" USPSA" Level III match. I hope this helps clear things up. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. Staci Pulver :-) USPSA Receptionist Point Series Coordinator Junior Raffle Coordinator Office 360-855-2245 Fax 360-855-0380 staci@uspsa.org Now THAT is how I understood it was to be run. +1 on that. I called sedro at the beginning of the season and that was what was explained to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 13, 2006 Share Posted December 13, 2006 huh? Sounds like a mixing of the 2005 policy with the 2006 ?? 2005: - National championship (points multiplied by 4) - Highest scoring area championship (points multiplied by 2) - Up to two state/sectional matches (points at face value) - One other match (points at face value) 2006: - Points from the highest finish at no more than two area matches - Points from the highest finish at no more than four state or sectional matches. - Points from the highest finish at no more than two other USPSA Level III matches. Why would you need the wording in italics if they weren't counting more matches ? Logic would seem to dictate that they had a typo and left an "s" off of the word "finish" ? Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpcdvc Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 huh?Sounds like a mixing of the 2005 policy with the 2006 ?? 2005: - National championship (points multiplied by 4) - Highest scoring area championship (points multiplied by 2) - Up to two state/sectional matches (points at face value) - One other match (points at face value) 2006: - Points from the highest finish at no more than two area matches - Points from the highest finish at no more than four state or sectional matches. - Points from the highest finish at no more than two other USPSA Level III matches. Why would you need the wording in italics if they weren't counting more matches ? Logic would seem to dictate that they had a typo and left an "s" off of the word "finish" ? Weird. Well if you are trying to get people to participate in the PS you really can't expect a lot of people to participate in 8 big matches (minimum). And to find two "other" matches to participate in that fit your schedule is even tougher. I think everyone can find an area match a couple of state matches and maybe one other match to compete in. I know in my club that has about 40+ members only about 3 went to more than 4 big matches. Come to think of it, maybe the confusion about the 06 PS has kept many from participating. If you really thought you would have to shoot so many big matches you wouldn't sign up. I know when I first read the 06 rules I was confused about how many matches counted. That is why I called to get clarification before I signed on, and decided to do so when they told me 4 counted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Cheely Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 Well if you are trying to get people to participate in the PS you really can't expect a lot of people to participate in 8 big matches (minimum). And to find two "other" matches to participate in that fit your schedule is even tougher. +1 I thought that it was 1 area, 2 state and 1 other. Anyone know for sure if they're going to update it again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j2fast Posted December 14, 2006 Share Posted December 14, 2006 +1I thought that it was 1 area, 2 state and 1 other. Anyone know for sure if they're going to update it again? I did it this year just because of there were a number of big matches within short driving distance of me this year. The info above is what I understood to be the requirement for this year's series. Of course I shot the minimum and one of the State/Section matches I went to decided not to participate so I've only got 3 matches listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 (edited) I don't understand this "not participate" thing from the match standpoint. Since it added no additional work to the match staff, I just told Staci to make all the State/Sectional matches in Area 5 point series matches. That made it real easy and I didn't even bother the match officials. They have enough on their hands already. Gary Edited December 15, 2006 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted December 15, 2006 Share Posted December 15, 2006 With only 4 matches counted there could be ties. I don't think thats enough matches, so I'll sit it out another year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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