Intent Of Production

[vluc]

While I have only posted a few times on this topic, I did answer your questions. IMNSHO, it's not broken, no need to fix it. Been shooting prod since I started the game, like it, and will continue to shoot it. I have no issue with how it is now, and don't see the equipment race that keeps being referred to. Something must be right with it as it seems to be the fastest growing division. If memory serves, mission count for the Western PA section of A8 shows production 2nd to Open in participation, with the difference not that large.

First off, I don't waste time worrying what some other production shooter has as a setup. I could care less if they have buried bomars, have internally milled their slide for less weight, put tungsten everything in the gun, if their guide rod pokes out a quarter of an inch, if they use a trigger with externally vieweable mods or if they have bevelled their magwell. When they post a higher score, I don't think any of those things beat me. The shooter beat me or I made more mistakes than he/she did. Sorry, I don't have the victim mentality that some seem to present here. The gun never beats me, the shooter does. Or more to the point, I beat myself by being unfocused.

Ironic that we tell the anti's that guns don't kill, people kill, but now want to lay claim that it's the guns that give the advantage, not the shooters.

I was outshot, outran, out-thought, outgamed, and so I try harder the next time.

[Kevin Kline]

I dont think Prod is broken, there is always going to be some/slight issues with rules, but I think Prod is the fastest growing division and with some clarification of the CURRENT rules, it should be left alone otherwise.

I think Prod is opened up enough to allow breathing room, but not so tight that you cant do anything to the gun and have to shoot it with the manufacturers packing grease still on the gun. Its not this popular and grown like this b/c the current rules are that bad.

Plus, some of the modifications are not race gun mods. It is merely a shooter doing small/minor things to make the gun more shootable/with a better personal feel or tweak for them. Nothing more. I havent seen any Prod guns that have been tricked out for race that would destroy the division. Im not saying they're not out there, but if so, I dont think there are that many.

Also dont forget, its not the gun that makes the difference. A little more tricked out gun does NOTHING more for the shooter. I think in their mind it does, but thats all. The guys who practice their a$*@s off are the ones winning and ruling the division.

Just my .02

[ipscbob]

.....The gun never beats me, the shooter does. Or more to the point, I beat myself by being unfocused......

......I was outshot, outran, out-thought, outgamed, and so I try harder the next time.......

Excellent points, all! "equipment race" excuse be damned. Generally, the best shooter wins regardless of the perceived advantage that he gets from any innovations that he may or may not apply to his equipment. This is true in ALL divisions. We like to discuss the details of getting that elusive 21 round reloadable limited mag but the fact is that the best could beat me with a revolver against my open setup every time, and I accept that as fact without making any excuses. If we want to benefit USPSA in the long run, leave the damn divisions and rules alone for awhile and have the board work on things that matter such as how to allow ALL of the members to vote on future issues and changes. This is a much harder issue to tackle but it will payoff hugely for the future of the organisation.

Edited September 13, 2006 by ipscbob

[ysued]

While I have only posted a few times on this topic, I did answer your questions. IMNSHO, it's not broken, no need to fix it.

Well, we do disagree here!!

Been shooting prod since I started the game, like it, and will continue to shoot it.

OK, I have been shooting this game for over 12 years, and I started with Open, then went to Limited and now Production, I plan to stay here!!

I have no issue with how it is now, and don't see the equipment race that keeps being referred to.

Now it all makes sense to me, you haven't been around long enough to know what has happened in the past of this sport, I have seen it, and I have been told of how it happened before I started by others who were there, I can see it happening again!!

Something must be right with it as it seems to be the fastest growing division. If memory serves, mission count for the Western PA section of A8 shows production 2nd to Open in participation, with the difference not that large.

There's a lot right with it, but I have seen this happen before, & I don't want it to happen again!!

First off, I don't waste time worrying what some other production shooter has as a setup.

Me neither!! But..... i don't want this division to turn into something it wasn't meant to be!!

I could care less if they have buried bomars, have internally milled their slide for less weight, put tungsten everything in the gun, if their guide rod pokes out a quarter of an inch, if they use a trigger with externally vieweable mods or if they have bevelled their magwell.

Well, there's the big difference, you just described a Limited setup, no longer production!!

If you want them modifications, there's 2 other Divisions you can play at and you can do the mods you described!! Limited and Limited 10!!

When they post a higher score, I don't think any of those things beat me. The shooter beat me or I made more mistakes than he/she did. Sorry, I don't have the victim mentality that some seem to present here. The gun never beats me, the shooter does. Or more to the point, I beat myself by being unfocused.

I'm not a victim either!!

At the larry Bullock match in KS, I was 4th overall, I was beat by 1 Limited (1st), 1 Limited 10 (2nd) and One Open (3rd) I was production (4th) there were 49 shooters overall!!

Trust me I'm no victim!!

Ironic that we tell the anti's that guns don't kill, people kill, but now want to lay claim that it's the guns that give the advantage, not the shooters.

I was outshot, outran, out-thought, outgamed, and so I try harder the next time.

The guns with unfair modifications in one Specific Division!!

When I want a gun with all sort of Pimp-Out stuff, I grab one of my STI's and blast on Limited, like I have done since 97 when I stopped shooting Open!! Heck, I shot the 98 Open Nationals with a Limited STI Edge in 40 in Open class!!

I dont think Prod is broken, there is always going to be some/slight issues with rules, but I think Prod is the fastest growing division and with some clarification of the CURRENT rules, it should be left alone otherwise.

I never said it was broken, but I think it need clarification in some items and closing loopholes.

I think Prod is opened up enough to allow breathing room, but not so tight that you cant do anything to the gun and have to shoot it with the manufacturers packing grease still on the gun. Its not this popular and grown like this b/c the current rules are that bad.

Agreed!! I have said so before on other threads!

Plus, some of the modifications are not race gun mods. It is merely a shooter doing small/minor things to make the gun more shootable/with a better personal feel or tweak for them. Nothing more. I havent seen any Prod guns that have been tricked out for race that would destroy the division. Im not saying they're not out there, but if so, I dont think there are that many.

But If left unchecked, it might happen!! Why not prevent it??

Also dont forget, its not the gun that makes the difference. A little more tricked out gun does NOTHING more for the shooter. I think in their mind it does, but thats all. The guys who practice their a$*@s off are the ones winning and ruling the division.

Just my .02

Agreed!!

.....The gun never beats me, the shooter does. Or more to the point, I beat myself by being unfocused......

......I was outshot, outran, out-thought, outgamed, and so I try harder the next time.......

Excellent points, all! "equipment race" excuse be damned. Generally, the best shooter wins regardless of the perceived advantage that he gets from any innovations that he may or may not apply to his equipment. This is true in ALL divisions. We like to discuss the details of getting that elusive 21 round reloadable limited mag but the fact is that the best could beat me with a revolver against my open setup every time, and I accept that as fact without making any excuses. If we want to benefit USPSA in the long run, leave the damn divisions and rules alone for awhile and have the board work on things that matter such as how to allow ALL of the members to vote on future issues and changes. This is a much harder issue to tackle but it will payoff hugely for the future of the organisation.

I agree with you, I really do.

I tried that elisive 21st round , but it never worked right , so I went with 18, safely

I have shot most divisions, I like Production best now, I plan to stay for a while, I just want the rules to be more clear, is that so bad??

[Chuck D]

"I truly feel that IDPA's division rules in regards to pistols is much more clear and specific than the USPSA production rules."

I couldn't agree more.

This sports prior history dictates that USPSA must get a handle on the rules and keep a handle on them. For those of us around at the time...we remember Limited Division being won several yaers in a row with a SS in 45acp by the likes of The Burner and TGO. Once the hi-cap frame and the "innovative" competitors/gunsmiths put 'em to good use...the SS gun vanished in Limited. We enentually ended up with "anything goes but comps and scopes" in Limited and L10. If USPSA doesn't get a handle on PD now, PD will eventually end up as a DA Limited Division.

We can and should keep the rules as they are now, especially to protect the investments made by our members but we should clarify them, tighten them up, take out the ambiguity and move on.

The rules should be simple to understand, simple to enforce, allow limited modifications, and keep the "spirit" of the division.

I know when I say IDPA like rules (gun modification wise) are a good idea...some cringe but the really ARE a well thought out set of gun rules.

[vluc]

QUOTE(vluc @ Sep 12 2006, 09:45 PM) *

I could care less if they have buried bomars, have internally milled their slide for less weight, put tungsten everything in the gun, if their guide rod pokes out a quarter of an inch, if they use a trigger with externally vieweable mods or if they have bevelled their magwell.

Well, there's the big difference, you just described a Limited setup, no longer production!!

I use those by way of example....trying to be as outrageous as possible, yes, altogether they are a limited gun, but some are legal under production. Bevelling a magwell is not adding a magwell, you know how some folks take some of those burrs and imperfections off the opeing into the gun...

Now it all makes sense to me, you haven't been around long enough to know what has happened in the past of this sport, I have seen it, and I have been told of how it happened before I started by others who were there, I can see it happening again!!

Only 6 years. Guess I'm still too new....

[ima45dv8]

While I have only posted a few times on this topic, I did answer your questions. IMNSHO, it's not broken, no need to fix it. Been shooting prod since I started the game, like it, and will continue to shoot it. I have no issue with how it is now, and don't see the equipment race that keeps being referred to. Something must be right with it as it seems to be the fastest growing division. If memory serves, mission count for the Western PA section of A8 shows production 2nd to Open in participation, with the difference not that large.

First off, I don't waste time worrying what some other production shooter has as a setup. I could care less if they have buried bomars, have internally milled their slide for less weight, put tungsten everything in the gun, if their guide rod pokes out a quarter of an inch, if they use a trigger with externally vieweable mods or if they have bevelled their magwell. When they post a higher score, I don't think any of those things beat me. The shooter beat me or I made more mistakes than he/she did. Sorry, I don't have the victim mentality that some seem to present here. The gun never beats me, the shooter does. Or more to the point, I beat myself by being unfocused.

Ironic that we tell the anti's that guns don't kill, people kill, but now want to lay claim that it's the guns that give the advantage, not the shooters.

I was outshot, outran, out-thought, outgamed, and so I try harder the next time.

This has to be the best post in the entire thread.

Well said, Vluc!

[Kevin Kline]

Agreed vluc, I think we are on the same page.

[Nik Habicht]

While I have only posted a few times on this topic, I did answer your questions. IMNSHO, it's not broken, no need to fix it. Been shooting prod since I started the game, like it, and will continue to shoot it. I have no issue with how it is now, and don't see the equipment race that keeps being referred to. Something must be right with it as it seems to be the fastest growing division. If memory serves, mission count for the Western PA section of A8 shows production 2nd to Open in participation, with the difference not that large.

First off, I don't waste time worrying what some other production shooter has as a setup. I could care less if they have buried bomars, have internally milled their slide for less weight, put tungsten everything in the gun, if their guide rod pokes out a quarter of an inch, if they use a trigger with externally vieweable mods or if they have bevelled their magwell. When they post a higher score, I don't think any of those things beat me. The shooter beat me or I made more mistakes than he/she did. Sorry, I don't have the victim mentality that some seem to present here. The gun never beats me, the shooter does. Or more to the point, I beat myself by being unfocused.

Ironic that we tell the anti's that guns don't kill, people kill, but now want to lay claim that it's the guns that give the advantage, not the shooters.

I was outshot, outran, out-thought, outgamed, and so I try harder the next time.

Vince,

you gotta stop stealing the thoughts out of my head......

Seriously ---- that more or less sums it up for me. What makes Production unique:

1. Non-Single Action

2. Minor Scoring

3. 10 round limit

4. Iron Sights

5. Holster/pouch position. (Not holster type --- I'd be fine with race holsters being legal in the same position.

6. No Magwell

7. Approved Gun List

I don't get beat by trigger jobs, tungsten guide rods, melted in Bo-Mars, weight reduced slides (which by the way I've never seen in Production), or type of holster or mag pouch used. I get beat by people who practice more ---- since I only picked one, but don't practice much.....

I've only been shooting USPSA since 2001, but I shoot regularly with people who were shooting it back in the 80s. From what I hear, most members were lost due to two different things: The rapid evolution in guns from .45ACP singlestacks through comped guns to the 38 Super red dotted widebody of today, that went through so many evolutions that lots of people needed to build a new gun every year, and the implementation of .40 as the minimum caliber for major in Limited, resulting in the S&W 356TSW and others no longer being ideal for the division.

Disallow a whole lot of heretofore legal mods in Production and I'll still be shooting the game. I don't know how much company I'll have though.....

As a match director I'll either have fewer shooters or I'll be asked to be lax in my enforcement of the legal guns rules ---- neither one of those developments is favorable for the continued health of the sport.....

[Z-man]

+1 vluc, lets get to the shooting!

[Castle]

Can someone explain to me why the grip plug for a Glock is considered taboo? If I were a buying a pistol for carry, home protection, or duty I would install one. It serves a real, non-compeitive based purpose. It only costs $6.95! Talk about something every person or competitor can afford. If I was military, law enforcement, or just some guy who wanted an ultra reliable pistol, I would want one. So what is the deal? It seems to meet the Production Theme.

[Loves2Shoot]

Can someone explain to me why the grip plug for a Glock is considered taboo?

It makes the gun easier to reload because the magazine doesn't get stuck in the hollow and it is an "External Modification." Right the rules to include or exclude certain products is very complicated.

[Castle]

This was not the intent of the grip plug though. It has a real world purpose, not just a competitive purpose. This is part of what turns people off.

Can someone explain to me why the grip plug for a Glock is considered taboo?

It makes the gun easier to reload because the magazine doesn't get stuck in the hollow and it is an "External Modification." Right the rules to include or exclude certain products is very complicated.

It seems that writing rules to include or exclude certain products or types is not complicated if it increases the clarity or those rules.

[Shawn Knight]

Look I have only been doing this for a few months and I think this is the only division to "start out" in. This is a true beginer based division and I like the minor scoring, it makes me shoot all A's. I like the 10 round limit, it makes learn to change mags faster. I like the simple firearms rules and the modification limits, it made me choose the perfect gun for me. When I get better I will move up to limited. I don't think I will ever move to open, unless I win an open gun!

[caps]

There's a good post at Global Village about why Production Division was created:

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4114

Very interesting!

[Chuck Anderson]

There's a good post at Global Village about why Production Division was created:

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4114

Very interesting!

And speaking of that thread, who had Production first? I've talked to some IPSC guys who are adamant that Production is a creation of IPSC and some USPSA guys who says it's ours. There has to be an actual answer on this one, hopefully.

Can someone explain to me why the grip plug for a Glock is considered taboo? If I were a buying a pistol for carry, home protection, or duty I would install one. It serves a real, non-compeitive based purpose. It only costs $6.95! Talk about something every person or competitor can afford. If I was military, law enforcement, or just some guy who wanted an ultra reliable pistol, I would want one. So what is the deal? It seems to meet the Production Theme.

I think this one may have been an attempt to eliminate some guys filling the empty area with lead or brass and capping it with an innocent looking plastic plug.

As far as this being a needed "tactical" accessory, I would tend to disagree with that. The open area is there to allow you to strip out sticky mags, which happen from time to time. Especially in a dusty environment where the plugs are supposed to be used. I won't use one in my guns and I've never felt the need for one.

[Jim Norman]

There's a good post at Global Village about why Production Division was created:

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=4114

Very interesting!

How about posting at least a synopsis since the GV isn't really all that Global?

Thanks

[j2fast]

Basically in a real small nutshell it says that PD was intended to be a 9mm dominated division (apparently at least in part because you can carry more rounds of 9mm when traveling); they never intended it to be an cheap, entry level, shoot what you brung division; they have a gun list to curve the arugment of what is and isn't double action also to give them the ability to reject guns that don't pass the smell test (i.e. I know a suitable PD gun when I see it).

Edit to correct typos

Edited September 15, 2006 by j2fast

[chuckw]

There's a good post at Global Village about why Production Division was created:

I don't know how I missed it before but it's a great insight.

And speaking of that thread, who had Production first? I've talked to some IPSC guys who are adamant that Production is a creation of IPSC and some USPSA guys who says it's ours. There has to be an actual answer on this one, hopefully.

I know! I know!!

I once asked Vince Pinto and his reply was (quote) "PD was formulated by IPSC during the period 1997-1999, and former USPSA President Andy Hollar was on the committee. It was formally approved at the 1999 General Assembly in Cebu. The USPSA then changed it in Y2K after Mike Voigt took office, and the US version first appeared in the USPSA 14th Edition 2001 (red) rulebook. A similar thing occurred earlier with Standard and Limited".

How about posting at least a synopsis since the GV isn't really all that Global?

It's much more global compared to this forum which is US-centric.

[BBunin]

Basically in a real small nutshell it says that PD was intended to be a 9mm dominated division (apparently at least in part because you can carry more rounds of 9mm when traveling); they never intended it to be an cheap, entry level, shoot what you brung division; they have a gun list to curve the arugment of what is and isn't double action also to give them the ability to reject guns that don't pass the smell test (i.e. I know a suitable PD gun when I see it).

Well, that's what it's ended up being. And, IMHO, it should stay that way. We NEED a "Bring what you got" division to let a new shooter decide if he likes the sport. I started shooting USPSA less than a year ago with the box stock XD I bought with no intention of competing when I got it. I was getting bored with just shooting at a round target at 15 yards all the time, so I decided to show up at a local USPSA match.

I showed up for my first match with the XDGear holster and mag pouch, the three mags that came with it, two value packs of WWB 9mm, and no idea if I was going to hate this or love it. We need to continue to accomodate that kind of shooter.

Since then, I've modified my Production gun. Now STOP throwing things at me!!

I put on Fiber Optic sights because I saw them for the first time and discovered that they really help these older eyes focus on the sights. I'd have done that even if I didn't compete. In fact, I've put them on my range guns, as well.

I had a CARRY trigger job done (4#) on it, because I discovered that I LIKED a better trigger pull. I would have done that even if it wasn't my competition gun.

Gear wise, I bought a cheap BladeTec holster to replace the XDGear one, another mag holder, and two more magazines, to bring me to 5. These are the ONLY things I've done strictly for competition.

In Production, at least as it's run at our club, EVERYONE'S welcome and people will often show up with a box stock pistol. Guess what? They have FUN!! They COME BACK!!! The shoot the SAME GUN!!!!

We get Marines who want to learn how to shoot their M9 before they go over to the sandbox, we get Cops who want to shoot better than just their qualifying each year. We get a lot of CCW's who realize they need more practice, if they're going to carry. (That's what started all this for me) We get Parents, teaching their teenager to shoot.

After they've been coming for a while, maybe they make a few mods. Maybe they get some better gear. Maybe they join USPSA. They might even... GASP! get a different gun!

But they do any or all of these things becasue they WANT TO. A lot of them continue to shoot exactly what they started with. ALL of them are there for ONE reason. They like it.

Maybe my club is abnormal. Maybe it's different in all of the rest of the world. But here, Production division is for fun. The Open shooters have STI's and race holsters and optics and all the goodies. The Limited and L-10 shooters have minor mods. The Prduction shooters here only have the kind of mods you'd put on any pistol you carried/shot regularly.

Lately we've had a bunch of the Open shooters shooting in Production. Guess who wins? That's right, them. Why? Because they're, by and large, the better shooters! It's not the equipment, it's the skill.

BTW, I just made C class in Production and L-10. I made the L-10 C with that same XD9. Why? Because I shot A's. I didn't have a magwell, Slide lightening, or handloaded light ammo. It's the skill, little though I have.......

Sorry for the long rant, but it sounds like most of you are spending too much time with the GM shooters and not enough time with the D, C, and Unclassified shooters who are what Production is there for.

Frankly, the only change to the way Production is now that I think is needed is that stupid 1 year rule that they've already ditched.

[ysued]

Agreed!!

As I wrote on the other Post, David Sevigny prooved that a $400.00 gun with minor Modifications, No Burried Bomars & Fancy $300.00 Trigger job can win a National Match, just pure Shooting Talent!!

Like I said on my other post, take the money that you would spend on a fancy Trigger and Burry Bomars and get some ammo and prectice!!

Y

Well, that's what it's ended up being. And, IMHO, it should stay that way. We NEED a "Bring what you got" division to let a new shooter decide if he likes the sport. I started shooting USPSA less than a year ago with the box stock XD I bought with no intention of competing when I got it. I was getting bored with just shooting at a round target at 15 yards all the time, so I decided to show up at a local USPSA match.

I showed up for my first match with the XDGear holster and mag pouch, the three mags that came with it, two value packs of WWB 9mm, and no idea if I was going to hate this or love it. We need to continue to accomodate that kind of shooter.

Since then, I've modified my Production gun. Now STOP throwing things at me!!

I put on Fiber Optic sights because I saw them for the first time and discovered that they really help these older eyes focus on the sights. I'd have done that even if I didn't compete. In fact, I've put them on my range guns, as well.

I had a CARRY trigger job done (4#) on it, because I discovered that I LIKED a better trigger pull. I would have done that even if it wasn't my competition gun.

Gear wise, I bought a cheap BladeTec holster to replace the XDGear one, another mag holder, and two more magazines, to bring me to 5. These are the ONLY things I've done strictly for competition.

In Production, at least as it's run at our club, EVERYONE'S welcome and people will often show up with a box stock pistol. Guess what? They have FUN!! They COME BACK!!! The shoot the SAME GUN!!!!

We get Marines who want to learn how to shoot their M9 before they go over to the sandbox, we get Cops who want to shoot better than just their qualifying each year. We get a lot of CCW's who realize they need more practice, if they're going to carry. (That's what started all this for me) We get Parents, teaching their teenager to shoot.

After they've been coming for a while, maybe they make a few mods. Maybe they get some better gear. Maybe they join USPSA. They might even... GASP! get a different gun!

But they do any or all of these things becasue they WANT TO. A lot of them continue to shoot exactly what they started with. ALL of them are there for ONE reason. They like it.

Maybe my club is abnormal. Maybe it's different in all of the rest of the world. But here, Production division is for fun. The Open shooters have STI's and race holsters and optics and all the goodies. The Limited and L-10 shooters have minor mods. The Prduction shooters here only have the kind of mods you'd put on any pistol you carried/shot regularly.

Lately we've had a bunch of the Open shooters shooting in Production. Guess who wins? That's right, them. Why? Because they're, by and large, the better shooters! It's not the equipment, it's the skill.

BTW, I just made C class in Production and L-10. I made the L-10 C with that same XD9. Why? Because I shot A's. I didn't have a magwell, Slide lightening, or handloaded light ammo. It's the skill, little though I have.......

Sorry for the long rant, but it sounds like most of you are spending too much time with the GM shooters and not enough time with the D, C, and Unclassified shooters who are what Production is there for.

Frankly, the only change to the way Production is now that I think is needed is that stupid 1 year rule that they've already ditched.

[chp5]

"I truly feel that IDPA's division rules in regards to pistols is much more clear and specific than the USPSA production rules."

I couldn't agree more.

I know when I say IDPA like rules (gun modification wise) are a good idea...some cringe but the really ARE a well thought out set of gun rules.

Although I no longer shoot IDPA, I tend to agree with this. In some ways, IDPA SSP rules are MORE liberal than USPSA Production.

Don't borrow from their messed up holster/mag pouch rules though!!

[Resjudicata]

Oops. I meant to hit "limited modifications" but accidently hit "no modifications".

Anyway, I have an idea. If we want to keep PD from having an equipment race then lets take a rule from auto racing. If you think someone has a high zoot extra unavailable part or trigger job then you can buy the gun for a set price. Say $500 or $700 or whatever the amount would be. Then whenever someone wants to put a massive $ amount into a PD gun they have to consider that at the next match someone can buy it from them for that set price.

This would also help those of us who don't have easy access to aftermarket trigger parts on our PD guns. (For example XDs). When one of the factory guys wins at the match we are in we can buy their gun with the factory team only parts in it for that set price.

This is the one sure way to prevent an equipment race.

Chris

[Genghis]

If you think someone has a high zoot extra unavailable part or trigger job then you can buy the gun for a set price. Say $500 or $700 or whatever the amount would be. Then whenever someone wants to put a massive $ amount into a PD gun they have to consider that at the next match someone can buy it from them for that set price.

Or use the method from the old game Car Wars, and have divisions based on cost - $250 division (also known as Saturday Night Special), $500, up to Unlimited.

Sean

[glock_40_caliber]

Anyway, I have an idea. If we want to keep PD from having an equipment race then lets take a rule from auto racing. If you think someone has a high zoot extra unavailable part or trigger job then you can buy the gun for a set price. Say $500 or $700 or whatever the amount would be. Then whenever someone wants to put a massive $ amount into a PD gun they have to consider that at the next match someone can buy it from them for that set price.

This is the one sure way to prevent an equipment race.

I guarantee if this is the way things work out, everyone else will have one less person to worry about competitng against. I WILL NOT just fork over my firearm to someone just because I may have won a match with it. It has nothing to do with the dollar amount (unless they want to give me $2,000 for my $500 glock ), it has more to do with the sentimental value, and being in tune with that particular gun. And all the mods done to my production gun might reach the $100 mark.