Intent Of Production

[ysued]

+1, I agree with Loves2Shoot.

There are just enough bright ideas in this thread that, if implemented, would cause many problems. Production Division grows every year, why is it necessary to mess with it?

Because if we keep going in the direction we are going now, we will definitely turn PD into Limited-DA-Minor!!

And IMHO, this is not what PD was ever menat to turn into!!

We gained several New shooters due to PD and it's implementation, if we turn it into another Race Gun division, we will be back to where we were in 96 when IDPA drained our membership.

I said it was dumb for many reasons. #1 What about the guy who has a Sig P226 and Bladetech gear with a CR belt? Or the guy who wants a hardchrome finish because he lives in a humid climate and doesn't want rust? Setting a dollar limit to fit your pet gun and gear isn't a thought out reason for a major change like HAVING to sell our stuff if you win and someone wants it.

He meant is as a joke!!

I hope!!

You are right, setting price limits is not the right way to go!!

Look, how come IDPA has been able to run SSP for 10 years now without any major problems??

Why can't we do the same thing??

If you want to shoot a surplus Glock fine, nothing wrong like that, people like Lawman (Chuck) get as good as they are from working hard and dedication to improvement. He practiced and traveled a LOT.

Most good shooters will tell people trying to "buy" improvement, greatness is in the sweat, not the dollars spent on gear. But this is still America last I checked.

That is totally right!!

But if you look at this Poll, the members have been giving the IPSC-Like Rules and overwhelming approval, I don't want to be "Identical" to IPSC, but if we went back a bit,a nd Calrified the rules, and closed the loopholes, we would be a whole lot better.

Going to a Limited-DA-Minor, is the wrong direction for this sport.

Edited September 10, 2006 by ysued

[Loves2Shoot]

Going to a Limited-DA-Minor, is the wrong direction for this sport.

Actually with the quality of Glocks, CZ's, and XD's it already is Limited 10 minor, without a mag well and gear behind the hips, essentially...

S_I has most of the market on the Limited market due to the quantity sold requirement. If you could do prototypes in Limited you would see more creativity and some new products and gunbuilders, but few have the capital for such a small market with USPSA rules are in place that protect that market share.

I sell 10-15 civilian to 1 USPSA trigger jobs, and lots of exteneded mag releases. There is a huge demand for improved stock guns OUTSIDE the USPSA caccoon.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[ysued]

Going to a Limited-DA-Minor, is the wrong direction for this sport.

Actually with the quality of Glocks, CZ's, and XD's it already is Limited 10 minor, without a mag well and gear behind the hips, essentially...

S_I has most of the market on the Limited market due to the quantity sold requirement. If you could do prototypes in Limited you would see more creativity and some new products and gunbuilders, but few have the capital for such a small market with USPSA rules are in place that protect that market share.

I sell 10-15 civilian to 1 USPSA trigger jobs, and lots of exteneded mag releases. There is a huge demand for improved stock guns OUTSIDE the USPSA caccoon.

Good!!

Then leave PD as it is without the Limited Features, the way it was meant to be!!

There's room for technology in all the other Divisions!!

Why must we turn "ALL" Divisions into the Arms race??

Why must all our Non-Compensated Guns look like Limited??

If you want more creativity in the guns, that's what Open is there for!!!

I don't know about your trigger jobs, but they must be good, and yes there's is more demand outside of USPSA.

My personal preference is to have my carry guns with "ABSOLUTELY NO MODIFICATIONS" in the unlikely chance that I have to use it to save my sorry A$$, I don't want a prosecutor to say that I have a Custom Killing Gun and I was ready to Kill with it!!

In the PD case, my belief is that it must remain as it was intended to be.

Rules need work, calrification, and I'm almost convinced by Chuck, more like SSP!!

I'm not an IDPA Mall Ninja, but some of their SSP Gun Rules are making more and more sense to me every day!!

If a shooter wants a DA-Pistol with all the Pimp-Out Bling, Shoot Limited!!

Edited September 11, 2006 by ysued

[GeorgeInNePa]

Every division will allways have an "arms race". Make the list of available mods short and more people will buy guns like the one my friend just got:

http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalo...p;productid=147

" P226 X-Five Allround

Designed to dominate in the fast-paced world of IPSC shooting, the P226 X-Five is already a proven winner in competition. The X-Five’s 5” slide and cold hammer forged barrel deliver stunning accuracy. Capable of sub-two inch groups at 50 yards, it redefines speed and accuracy. The X-Five Allround model features all-stainless construction, ergonomic beavertail grip, standard DA/SA trigger, decocking lever, adjustable sights and polymer grips. In 9mm the P226 X-Five Allround is the ideal choice for USPSA Production Division competition. "

He just did a little smoothing up to the trigger (to enhance reliabilty, lol) and it is a very nice gun. Bomar "like" rear sight lo-melted into the slide. under cut trigger guard and longer beavertail. Bull 5" barrel.

It is both USPSA and IPSC legal.

He also has a 5906 5" gun on order. That is also USPSA and IPSC legal.

Someone will always have nicer/better/more expensive stuff than you. Why does it matter?

Every few months the call goes out on the internet. "Oh teh noes!!11!!! this is teh suxxor! I can't compete!"

Suck it up, practice (a lot) and don't worry.

Production Division grows every year, why is it necessary to mess with it?

[wide45]

It was not entirely a joke.

No one would pay $800 for Sevignys Glock, because you can buy the same gun over the counter for $500

If you have a couple of hundred $ of modifications to your gun, it is not production.

Run it like a claiming race.

Few, easy to spot restriction on modifications. Must fit in box.

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800.

You could stay under the $800 easy with a Glock, or sombody else's no frills model, basic kydex etc. If someone thinks yours is better, you'll make money selling it to them.

Start running $200 trigger jobs, or use a top doller race holster, and someone will get a sweet deal.

[ysued]

Every division will allways have an "arms race".

But that doesn't have to be the case with PD!!

Why should "ALL" Divisions be the same??

What the the Pathological Urge to Turn every division into Limited??

Make the list of available mods short and more people will buy guns like the one my friend just got:

http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalo...p;productid=147

" P226 X-Five Allround

Designed to dominate in the fast-paced world of IPSC shooting, the P226 X-Five is already a proven winner in competition. The X-Five’s 5” slide and cold hammer forged barrel deliver stunning accuracy. Capable of sub-two inch groups at 50 yards, it redefines speed and accuracy. The X-Five Allround model features all-stainless construction, ergonomic beavertail grip, standard DA/SA trigger, decocking lever, adjustable sights and polymer grips. In 9mm the P226 X-Five Allround is the ideal choice for USPSA Production Division competition. "

He just did a little smoothing up to the trigger (to enhance reliabilty, lol) and it is a very nice gun. Bomar "like" rear sight lo-melted into the slide. under cut trigger guard and longer beavertail. Bull 5" barrel.

It is both USPSA and IPSC legal.

He also has a 5906 5" gun on order. That is also USPSA and IPSC legal.

Someone will always have nicer/better/more expensive stuff than you. Why does it matter?

Every few months the call goes out on the internet. "Oh teh noes!!11!!! this is teh suxxor! I can't compete!"

Suck it up, practice (a lot) and don't worry.

Production Division grows every year, why is it necessary to mess with it?

Just because your buddy has the cash to drop more than $1k on a gun is not the reason to let thei division go unchecked!!

Hey, if your buddy is happy with the SIG, good for him!!

I'm not advocating messing with PD, but making sure the rules are more clear and easier to enforce??

What is wrong with that??

Or do you prefer ambiguity and Loopholes??

Personallly, I do not!!

It was not entirely a joke.

No one would pay $800 for Sevignys Glock, because you can buy the same gun over the counter for $500

I wouldn't!!

If you have a couple of hundred $ of modifications to your gun, it is not production.

I agree with you 100%

I will try to leave my M&P just like it came, except for them Ugly White Dots on the Sights

I hope to be able to fit the S&W 1911 Heinies to the M&P

All within the spirit of Production, who care if I get beat by guys with $2K guns, as long as I know that I'm playing the game the way it was supposed to be played, I can live with my decision in modifications.

Y

Edited September 11, 2006 by ysued

[Chris Keen]

[ysued]

Yes I know!!

I must step back, there's no changing some folks mind!!

i really don't care anymore I guess.

If you guys want PD to go this way, I see a repeat of 1996, all over again!!

And Who's to blame??

We all are!!

Y

[SA Friday]

Hey, the arm swings in tempo with the song by Cypress Hill, "Insane in the Brain"

Sorry, string drift, but I couldn't resist. It just fit.

Ultimately, no matter where you stand on this issue, it all comes down to my tag line (read below).....

Edited September 11, 2006 by SA Friday

[Chris Keen]

Hey, the arm swings in tempo with the song by Cypress Hill, "Insane in the Brain"

I had to check and see.................... he's RIGHT@!

Jump Around by House of Pain ~ ? ? ?

[kamakiri]

Maybe this is another way of discussing the "intent" of the division... but it seems to me that a good approach in thinking about if/how the PD rules might be changed is to start by thinking about what the merits of the division are and trying to maintain/enhance those. In other words... What does PD offer that other divisions don't? Why do (some of us) prefer it to other divisions?

Here's a quick list of some of the things that I particularly like about Production:

1. Minor scoring - rewards accuracy

2. 10 round mags - adds a strategy element not found in Open/Limited

3. Variety - there is no "must have" gun; several totally different platforms are, more or less, equally competitive.

4. Affordability - a newbie really can get an inexpensive gun and gear and jump right in without feeling that they're at a major competitive disadvantage. And, as of right now, they'd be right.

I like PD the way it is, and I'd tend to favor rules that aim to keep it that way, perhaps by adding some clarifications that prevent things from getting too "racy." Personally I don't think that any modification that you'd have to dissassemble the gun to detect could ever be enough of an advantage to make much difference; but then I've never been a member of the Cult of the Perfect Trigger Job.

[Chuck D]

The "beating the dead horse" thing is mildly amusing....once.

The author of the thread asked a question...people are answering it to the best of their ability. It may not be the answer you like but it's an honest answer just the same.

If it "bores' you...don't read it.

Now...back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Chuck D

[driver8M3]

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800.

and

It was not entirely a joke.

do you want to run people out of production? i dont know about NY gun laws, but i live in MD, and i sure wouldnt be shooting in production if someone could buy my gun after any match. seriously, that idea is completely ridiculous.

[Chuck Anderson]

The "beating the dead horse" thing is mildly amusing....once.

The author of the thread asked a question...people are answering it to the best of their ability. It may not be the answer you like but it's an honest answer just the same.

If it "bores' you...don't read it.

Now...back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Actually I was planning to expand on that. Chris, while I appreciate input from pretty much anywhere...if you're not interested, read another thread. You've already made your participation in Production clear. That you're only in it for a year while your Open gun is being built. Many of us intend to shoot Production for a bit longer than the time it takes to get our gun built. I for one have a vested interest in seeing how Production will turn out. If you don't, why post to this thread?

[EricW]

Well...

Since Production is pretty much the "entry level" division by which a lot of people came into USPSA, myself included, I'd like to think we have an opinion even though a lot of us have moved on to Limited and Open.

Maybe the rules aren't perfect, whatever "perfect" is. But I wish Mike Voigt would simply stand up and tell everybody to just shut the hell up and shoot, because the next set of rules will be no less controversial. I can't see a single positive outcome of rendering people's existing equipment illegal.

For all of Production's supposed failures, the exodus that will follow the next equipment ban will severely impact everyone from a revenue standpoint, and I guess I feel like I have a right to have an opinion on that.

Very Respectfully,

Eric

[Loves2Shoot]

It was not entirely a joke.

No one would pay $800 for Sevignys Glock, because you can buy the same gun over the counter for $500

If you have a couple of hundred $ of modifications to your gun, it is not production.

A new Glock 17 here goes for $525 + 10 tranfer.

A KKM barrel to shoot lead $200

Warren Sights installed $90

Trigger Kit $5-$200

Guide rods $10-40

Grip Tape $5-$10

Extended release $5

Probably one of the more common production setups around. If you try to take that setup away how many folks are you going to upset?

The door was opened with striker fired guns, and BIG companes will make decked out guns, so I don't really see a way around production being L10 minor as far as gear. Why 1911's are left out doesn't make logical sense to me since Glocks and XDs (and Sigs worked by Bruce Gray) can have very similiar triggers. My guess is 1911's are left out because of marketing the Division and the "image" of expensive 1911's.

Guns being made today work very well, and as far as I can tell if you aren't winning, it isn't because of the gear. As far as production being a "arms race," I guess you could use that excuse for losing to a better shooter, but it doesn't make it true. People say Limited is an arms race too, but any basic hicap .40 will win in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. The "race guns" seem to be at a pretty mature point. It isn't the gear that is winning matches from what I can tell, gear that isn't 100% can lose a match but I haven't seen gear win a match yet.

I guess a good thing about Production is that the guns used have been poured over and people are making them more user friendy, that is a good thing. I know for one I will be shooting Production along with other division, because shooting 10 rounds-minor does make me work on different parts of my game and presents new challenges, and it's just plain fun.

I'll shoot it however it ends up if it adds something to to game.

I would like to see the rules cleaned up though.

ps. I shoot a stock XD with Dawson sights, grip tape, and my trigger and I don't feel at all disadvataged to those who spend more $.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[38superman]

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with the production rules we have now.

The only thing I woud change is to do away with the 10 round limitation.

Tls

[Jim Norman]

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with the production rules we have now.

The only thing I woud change is to do away with the 10 round limitation.

Tls

Think it through first.

No capacity limit and only 9mm need apply. Para 18 rounds in 9mm vs Sig with 12 in 40, what are you shooting? Glaock probably still in the race with 17 in the G17 and the G34, but G22/35 in 40? no longer competitive, any .45, forget about it unless your name is Robbie.

Jim

[vluc]

Okay, here is my Production gun, what would you eliminate?

Glock 34

wolff striker spring - $3.49

wolff trigger spring - $3.49

trigger job - no cost

Tru-grip - $24.99 + shipping

replacement guide rod + spring - app $35.00

WTS sights - $45.00 (previously ran a Heine rear and Dawson FO front)

weight - same as it was when I bought it

approximately 18K rounds through the gun already (reloads)

"B" class with flashes of brilliance as well as incredibly sucky runs

class with a GM - priceless

Have these few aftermarket parts made me a better shooter than someone else? Don't think so! Maybe it's the rounds, the training and the practice, maybe it's being able to tailor a load for the gun that makes it function more to my liking AND ABILITY as a shooter.

One size does not fit all, and the "spirit/intent" absolutely has to recognize that or we should then limit all shooters to moving a certain way, having a certain optical refraction, being a certain size, etc. Last I looked, it was still a "game".

Next, will we disallow physical conditioning for Production shooters since at the grossly misnamed "entry level" because not all people are physically fit? I'm part of the equipment I use, why shouldn't I maximize what I can within the guidlelines?

[j2fast]

Well...

Since Production is pretty much the "entry level" division by which a lot of people came into USPSA, myself included, I'd like to think we have an opinion even though a lot of us have moved on to Limited and Open.

Maybe the rules aren't perfect, whatever "perfect" is. But I wish Mike Voigt would simply stand up and tell everybody to just shut the hell up and shoot, because the next set of rules will be no less controversial. I can't see a single positive outcome of rendering people's existing equipment illegal.

For all of Production's supposed failures, the exodus that will follow the next equipment ban will severely impact everyone from a revenue standpoint, and I guess I feel like I have a right to have an opinion on that.

Very Respectfully,

Eric

Couldn't agree more with what Eric said and PD is also how I came into the sport even though I moved to Limited part way through this year. Once the budget allows it I plan on picking up another gun for Production but I might wait to see what the propesed rule changes look like next year.

Edit for typos

Edited September 11, 2006 by j2fast

[JFD]

After some thought, we are stuck with what we have unless we want to screw over the folks who've been supporting the division so far. However I think we're "stuck" with a pretty good division right now.

I'm not aware of anything that's going to cause Production to turn into DA Limited unless I've missed something.

Why the interest in the intent of the Division? If it's because we want to grow our membership, then I think we have a marketing problem more than we have a problem with any division.

The Front Sight Annual issue would be a good place to start. I regularly loan mine to folks thinking of shooting competition. Have an article featuring Dave and his box stock G17. Stop describing L-10 as a place for downloaded Limited guns. May as well put a pic of an actual Limited gun in there since the Limited pic is a SS Springfield.

The best way to grow the sport is to put a lock on the divisions. If Production rules need a few tweaks to clearly allow what we have now, but not turn into DA Limited, then have at it. Who is going to bitch and leave the sport when what they are using now is legal? Right now anything that can be shot in IDPA can be shot in USPSA, so why even go there? SS will live or die by the current plan. Leave the rest alone for a decade or two and just shoot.

My only zero-cost rules wish list would be to get rid of the mag pouch placement rule. Smaller folks having to reach back to their butt crack for a mag is silly unless we also want to throw a concealment requirement in there as well.

[Loves2Shoot]

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with the production rules we have now.

The only thing I woud change is to do away with the 10 round limitation.

Tls

Think it through first.

No capacity limit and only 9mm need apply. Para 18 rounds in 9mm vs Sig with 12 in 40, what are you shooting? Glaock probably still in the race with 17 in the G17 and the G34, but G22/35 in 40? no longer competitive, any .45, forget about it unless your name is Robbie.

Jim

Those running .40's or .45 could run in L10 just fine. It would change the Production game a little, but I wouldn't mind losing the limit, more for political reasons. I think Clinton era limits should be trashed, but I'm fine running 10.

I agree with the mag placement thing to. It penalizes ladies and juniors most.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[Nik Habicht]

It was not entirely a joke.

No one would pay $800 for Sevignys Glock, because you can buy the same gun over the counter for $500

If you have a couple of hundred $ of modifications to your gun, it is not production.

Run it like a claiming race.

Few, easy to spot restriction on modifications. Must fit in box.

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800.

You could stay under the $800 easy with a Glock, or sombody else's no frills model, basic kydex etc. If someone thinks yours is better, you'll make money selling it to them.

Start running $200 trigger jobs, or use a top doller race holster, and someone will get a sweet deal.

A claiming race is a nice idea ----- that would totally screw competitors from states like N.J., where they'd then need to apply for another permit to purchase a handgun, and possibly enduire a ninety day wait until they could replace their blaster......

Other states have set-up similar roadblocks.....

[38superman]

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with the production rules we have now.

The only thing I woud change is to do away with the 10 round limitation.

Tls

Think it through first.

No capacity limit and only 9mm need apply. Para 18 rounds in 9mm vs Sig with 12 in 40, what are you shooting? Glaock probably still in the race with 17 in the G17 and the G34, but G22/35 in 40? no longer competitive, any .45, forget about it unless your name is Robbie.

Jim

I hear you Jim, but it seems to me that the minor power factor restriction has already made production a 9mm only division.

Granted there are a few who shoot 40's in minor and they would be at a disadvantage.

Is there really anybody out there shooting a 45 in production?

Don't see much difference in a Glock with 17 vs a Para with 18.

IPSC has no 10 round limit, I see no reason why we should.

Just my humble opinion.

Ignore it if you wish.

I don't shoot production so I have no dog in this fight.

Tony

[Nik Habicht]

FWIW, I don't see anything wrong with the production rules we have now.

The only thing I woud change is to do away with the 10 round limitation.

Tls

Think it through first.

No capacity limit and only 9mm need apply. Para 18 rounds in 9mm vs Sig with 12 in 40, what are you shooting? Glaock probably still in the race with 17 in the G17 and the G34, but G22/35 in 40? no longer competitive, any .45, forget about it unless your name is Robbie.

Jim

Those running .40's or .45 could run in L10 just fine. It would change the Production game a little, but I wouldn't mind losing the limit, more for political reasons. I think Clinton era limits should be trashed, but I'm fine running 10.

I agree with the mag placement thing to. It penalizes ladies and juniors most.

But minor scoring and holster/mag pouch placement and lack of magwells are three of the elements that distinguish Production from L10 ---- so it's not like L10 would be the same game....