Intent Of Production

[ysued]

Chirs,

I see your point, perfectly....

But...

In the sights...

You tell me, are Melted Bomars a "REAL" Competitive advantage?? IMHO, NO!!!

A good set of $50.00 Heinies do the same job as a $300.00 Melted Bomars, and there's less chance of Hinies Breaking than Bomars flying appart!! BTW, I'm of the opinion that the Sight picture is of the same quality in both.

On the GM's using Bone stock guns... If the shooter is the key, then if everybody used bone stock guns, the GM's and the top shooters will still win Their skills will always surpass the mediocre shooter, even with stock guns, right?? If they are really good, they should be good with any gun, right?? But if they needed a $2K gun, then, they are not really that good, it's the gun that wins them the match, right??

Y

Edited September 10, 2006 by ysued

[BSeevers]

I have been around and know that if you set limits, racers will push the limit. The trusight is a perfect example. So is the "stock" HK with a magwell. You cannot limit gun modifications enough unless you say everybody shoots a stock Sig 226 and even if you do that Sig will some out with a "special" competition 226.

How about a Production division where anybody can "trade" you guns straight up? Still would have problems but might work.

PS Its really about practice.

[shred]

The problem still is the C/D shooter gets a percentage of the top guys. What's to stop them thinking "If I only had another $500 to spend like So-and-so, does, I'd be 10% or 20% further up?". Reality is less important than perception when trying to recruit. Ask any college football coach..

[ysued]

The problem still is the C/D shooter gets a percentage of the top guys. What's to stop them thinking "If I only had another $500 to spend like So-and-so, does, I'd be 10% or 20% further up?". Reality is less important than perception when trying to recruit. Ask any college football coach..

My point exactly!!

"

Some of these External Modifications, like melted Bomars, are just Perceived" advantages, they are not "Real"!!

It's all in the prectice!!

I bet I can shoot the same with my new S&W M&P9 than with my G17 with the Heinies, ISMI Rod, Glock 3.5lb Connector and True-Grip!!

That reminds me.

Eric, we need True Grip for the M&P!!! NOW!!!

I have been around and know that if you set limits, racers will push the limit. The trusight is a perfect example. So is the "stock" HK with a magwell. You cannot limit gun modifications enough unless you say everybody shoots a stock Sig 226 and even if you do that Sig will some out with a "special" competition 226.

How about a Production division where anybody can "trade" you guns straight up? Still would have problems but might work.

PS Its really about practice.

Gun modifications can have limits, by making guns that exceed or break the rules Illegal!!

Both IPSC and IDPA have done it, why can't we??

Oh, I forgot, we don't want to Pi$$-Off the manufacturers!!

OK, then who is USPSA serving, the Gun Manufacturers, or the shooters??

Limits must be set at some point!!!

BTW, the HK gun with the magwel..., you can take it off quite easily!!

Sorry for my ignorance... WTH is the TruSight??

[JakeMartens]

Production should be just that, Production. I think we all can agree on the 2000 units, 1 year wait, that eliminates the top dogs getting a 1 of a kind custom gun, ok good there.

Modifications, yes the tricky part, make it simple, sight that fit existing sight cuts. Trigger work with stock trigger parts, the parts that came on that model of gun, not some other. Ok to use after market springs.

The way I see it, you want to lighten the slide and add a magwell, fine, you shoot in Limited 10 or Limited. You want to swap mag releases and triggers, fine you shoot in L10 or Limited.

You want to shoot in Production with a Production made gun that has after market sights that fit the original sight cuts, and a trigger job with original trigger parts, ok then that is a Production gun.

You want other modifications, great we have other divisions for you, a couple actually, have at.

Make it simple, no reason to have Produciton Limited division when there are already divisions for that.

[MTrout40]

I made Master with a 2nd Gen. G17 with a stock barrel, some better sights, a little Tru-Grip, and a $50 trigger. It dosent take a sparkling-new G34 with a $500 trigger, $300 barrel, and $200 sights to get good. Take that $1000 ..... put $150 into mods. and then spend the rest on ammo.

PRACTICE!

PRACTICE!

PRACTICE!

I know where you're coming from....I made GM with a basically stock Para p14-45 with a magwell and green paint on the front sight!

But we are both arguing the same point.

So if Joe Newshooter runs out and buys a stock XXXXXX pistol, and then sees Mr. Sevigny win the Ultimate Championship of the Universe with a different, yet highly modified Prod. gun, he needs to remember that while he may be in the same DIVISION as Dave Sevigny, he is not starting out in the same CLASS as Mr. Sevigny, and therefore not competing for the same prize, plaque, or title as Mr. Sevigny. It may be fun to compare yourself to the top-level shooters in this sport, but we should all remember that classes are there to allow us to be competitive amongst our peers. I know how hard that can be in the early stages on USPSA.

I personally don't think that class, prizes, or trophies have anything to do with a rules update. But, as the rules are, I agree with you. A new guy wouldn't know the difference in sights, grip tape, etc. Most modifications take experience to realize what works for you.

Production Div. can be many things to many people. B, C, or D class shooters could win, thrive, & survive at their current level of shooting with many different models of Stock guns, while at the same time A, M, & GM shooters MAY NOT be competitive with those "Entry-Level" guns. And if those "sponsored shooters" you mentioned don't win, then who will buy their sponsor's "Production" guns ? Not me. You have to be the best at what you do to sell guns.

If the rules stated that the gun had to be stock, then the sponsored shooters should be able to win with that set up. If they can't, then they shouldn't be sponsored. Or better, yet, the guy that does win WOULD be sponsored by that company. This has been discussed many, many times. The sport is based on the average joe, not the GM or sponsored shooters. That's one reason I think PD should be geared towards the new guy, not the pro. I got a G35 to play in production. Did I get it because I saw Sevigny win a world shoot with it? No, I got it because, as per the rules, it's was the most competitive production gun at the time. Good sights could be put on, the trigger was easy to get light and be legal.....that's not the case for a lot of "production guns" that a lot of people own.

Some new shooters will buy the competitive equipment, some will go away instead of buying it, and some won't care. That's why the INTENT of PD needs to be figured out before any rule changes are made.

I made Master with a 2nd Gen. G17 with a stock barrel, some better sights, a little Tru-Grip, and a $50 trigger. It dosent take a sparkling-new G34 with a $500 trigger, $300 barrel, and $200 sights to get good. Take that $1000 ..... put $150 into mods. and then spend the rest on ammo.

I know where you're coming from....I made GM with a basically stock Para p14-45 with a magwell and green paint on the front sight!

So you and I have made progress with basically stock guns....if PD was changed to a "basically stock" division, then the big dogs in PD should be able to do the same. Even if the other classed shooters are shooting the exact same gun! But it's the INTENT that needs to be addressed!

And of course the problem of VERY resrictive rules is added stress and responsibility of the RO's or Chronoman. If there's a weight limit, every PD gun has to be weighed. If there's a trigger pull limit, every trigger has to be measured. I guess there's ups and downs from every aspect.

[LwE]

Something important is being overlooked in this discussion. We are not just trying to bring into USPSA the person who already has a crunchenticker or who can feasibly afford one, and not a racegun. We are trying to get the makers of the common guns back in support of our sport.

Cast your mind back to the glorious days of yesteryear and recall that in the mid-90's there were gun prizes at the Limited Nationals down to eighty or ninetieth place. Lots of manufacturers were interested in proving their gear in our forum. That died when the dominance of the specialty manufacturers in Open and Limited became apparent. We're never going to get that back in those classes, but Production makes it possible to lure the mass gun producers back in--as long as the guns look stock on the outside for the advertising photographs. I think there was some talk of this when the class was first proposed.

Progress has been slow. In 2003 there were guns down to 13th place in Production at the Nat'ls. In 2005 the gun prizes ran out at 5th or 6th place in Production, for some reason, despite a larger field.

But things are picking up. Several manufacturers are sponsoring Production shooters and lots of potentially competitive guns are coming onto the market. Guns that ordinary gun-buying folks buy in large numbers. Guns that agencies buy in large numbers. Guns that manufacturers have an incentive to market broadly. Proving those guns against the competition in high-level championships may well contribute to an edge in market share.

All the real technological excitement these days in USPSA is in Production, and USPSA should be using that to its advantage. Some day soon, perhaps this year, Production will start to come into its own and manufacturer support for USPSA will begin to look a little bit more like it used to in the glory years.

That would be a great thing. Let's not leave that out of the deliberations. Lance

[Chris Keen]

Is the big question here, because the Production Guns have gotten TOO RACY ??? Is it because one particular brand has gotten more popular ?

So how would restricting modifications help? It wont change the fact that there are simply more aftermarket parts made for that particular brand of gun.

Fortyfiveshooter talked about it being OK if "Stock" parts were used in a trigger job, but NOT aftermarket. How would we know ? Are we going to dissasemble every gun at the chono stage ? Jeeese that would take a while. What about club matches where we don't usually even chono ammo to confirm PF ?

The current rules allow internal mods because we just dont have time to confirm internal mods. Rules need to be enforced consistantly and fairly, or they are merely words in a book.

How do we confirm whether that dovetail is factory cut or not ?

I like Production just the way it is.

[ysued]

Production should be just that, Production. I think we all can agree on the 2000 units, 1 year wait, that eliminates the top dogs getting a 1 of a kind custom gun, ok good there.

Modifications, yes the tricky part, make it simple, sight that fit existing sight cuts. Trigger work with stock trigger parts, the parts that came on that model of gun, not some other. Ok to use after market springs.

The way I see it, you want to lighten the slide and add a magwell, fine, you shoot in Limited 10 or Limited. You want to swap mag releases and triggers, fine you shoot in L10 or Limited.

You want to shoot in Production with a Production made gun that has after market sights that fit the original sight cuts, and a trigger job with original trigger parts, ok then that is a Production gun.

You want other modifications, great we have other divisions for you, a couple actually, have at.

Make it simple, no reason to have Produciton Limited division when there are already divisions for that.

AMEN to that Bro!!

You sid it right!!

If you feel the urge to tinker with your gun, you can do it, you can go to other Divisions to do that!!

Thanks for your post!!

[ysued]

Is the big question here, because the Production Guns have gotten TOO RACY ???

No, but some shooters have made them so!! Worse yet, bad rullings by USPSA and unclear rules have given them the green light to do so!!

Is it because one particular brand has gotten more popular ?

No, not really!!

So how would restricting modifications help?

Keep the spirit of the Division!!

It wont change the fact that there are simply more aftermarket parts made for that particular brand of gun.

They make comps for Glocks, should we let them in the Division?? That is not the reason to Pimp out a gun and slap it with Bling!!

Fortyfiveshooter talked about it being OK if "Stock" parts were used in a trigger job, but NOT aftermarket. How would we know ?

Difficult to enforce, but we must do something!!

Are we going to dissasemble every gun at the chono stage ?

I hate to say this, but we might have to!! Whydoesn't this happen in IDPA????

My solution is to DQ anyone caught cheating in Production for un-sportsmanlike conduct!! If they do it again Ban them from a few matches, a third time ban them forever and out of USPSA, they can go cheat at IDPA!!

Jeeese that would take a while. What about club matches where we don't usually even chono ammo to confirm PF ?

I would say not a local matches, but it must be a must at nationals and Area Matches!!

The current rules allow internal mods because we just dont have time to confirm internal mods. Rules need to be enforced consistantly and fairly, or they are merely words in a book.

YES!!!! very much so!!

How do we confirm whether that dovetail is factory cut or not ?

Easy, they don't makeProduction Guns with melted Down Bomars!! Unless they come from the "CUSTOM SHOP"

I like Production just the way it is.

I like it where it is right nos, somewhat... I just don't like where it's going!!! to LIMITED!!!

If you want to turn your Glock or Sig inot a limited Gun, shoot Limited or L10!!

If the rules stated that the gun had to be stock, then the sponsored shooters should be able to win with that set up. If they can't, then they shouldn't be sponsored. Or better, yet, the guy that does win WOULD be sponsored by that company.

AMEN!! This is so right!! If Sponsored Shooter X (in Production that is), Needs a custom, Pimped-out gun to win, he shouldn't be sponsored!! OTOH, Joe Shooter that bought the gun out of the box, followed the rules and the spirit of the Division wins, he should get the benefits of the sponsorship!!

I'm very happy with the M&P9 I just got, I might tinker with the sights by covering up the White Dots, but that's it!! The gun is just perfect the way it is right now!!

I wish Heinie made sights for it, but that is not the case

Y

[Chuck Anderson]

OK, first we'll clear up a couple errors. At the 2005 Production Nats, the guns didn't go to 5th or 6th. They went to 3rd. Trust me, I was 4th. However I remember the person who came in 18th in Limited walking away with a gun. Production was definitely the bastard stepchild at that match.

As far as the dominance of one gun in Production...uhh which would that be? There are guns, Glocks, that are probably used by the majority of that Division but I certainly wouldn't say they dominate anymore. 05 Nats: 1st Place, Glock 34, 2nd Place CZ, 3rd Place CZ, 4th Place Glock 17, 5th place Beretta 96. Not exactly an dominating performance.

When I started this poll I deliberately left some options out. Keeping it the same is one of them. Simply because that doesn't address the intent of the division. The BOD can't decide what it should be. The rules were written without a specific mission statement and that a big part of why some of the rulings are ambiguous.

Yamil, you mention to Keep the Spirit of the Division. It's pretty obvious that there is no firm consensous on what the spirit is. Everyone has their own opinion but they don't all match.

As far as the idea of DQ'ing folks for unsportsmanlike conduct if they have a part that's not allowed. Umm, didn't you get bumped to open for a grip plug? Were you deliberately trying to cheat? Of course not. You just didn't know. That's part of the problem that I have with the rules as they exist. They need to be changed so that they are easily understandable. But without a template of what the goals should be? I hope not.

For those folks that seems to think that IPSC rules with limited modifications are easy to enforce. Take a look at the Global Village (except you Jim) Vince Pinto seems to spend most of his waking life telling people that mods aren't allowed. And the last IPSC match I went to people were still breaking those same rules.

Probably after another week or so, I'll do another poll. One with more specific questions pertaining to the most voted on options here. This is just kind of general to get the parameters set.

As far as the top shooters making a lot of changes to their guns. Most really don't. Of those top 5 at the Nationals last year. The only one that wasn't IPSC legal, factory parts etc. was 1st Place. And that was one spring and a pound of trigger pull away from it. Those top 5 run with guns that are basically stock. Of the changes the CZ's had the most, but they're all legal under almost any rule set that we would use.

[ysued]

Lawman,

You do make a whole lot of sense!!

I did get bumped to open because if the plug, and because of my ingnorance!!

You are right!!

We don't have a definite direction on this Division, rules are so unclear right now, that a complere re-Write na d calrification are needed.

When I offered the DQ for Un -Sportsmanlike behavior I meant blatant cheating, I know that that is hard to prove and enforce abut it was just a Brain fart of mine

Rules must be easy to understand and enforce, with little or no loopholes in it!!

And to make things easy to enforde, the rulebook must be followed until the times comes that Official changes are made by the BOD!! By that I mean no more contacting john Amidon to see if part A or Z are legal for Production!! I am guilty of that, as I contacted john for the ISMI Guide Rod, and that was just because of my lazyness, I found that the ISMI Rod was easier to replace springs than the Glock factory rod Now i wish i handn't done that and that The factory Rod was the only way to go. With the M&P, I'll use the factory Springs and Rod, even though there's perfectly good replacements out there right now.

Thanks for this Poll, I really think that we can come to a concensus here and results can be sent to USPSA and a New set of Rules that make most of us happy, not only the 1% that wasnt DA Limited.

I agree, the spirit of the Division can not be followed untill a good, fair and easy to Undesrstand and enforce set of rules can be hammered out by the BOD.

The rules we have now are full of loopholes and so unclear that there's really not a good way to enforce them!!

[Rckymtnshooter]

One external modification I would like to see legal is allowing the addition of a beavertail. I like shooting my Glock but my hand is fairly large and I shoot with a high grip. I can't shoot my Glock for more than about 50 rnds. without cutting the web of my hand. I built up a beavertail using acraglass gel and some black dye and it looks great and better yet I can shoot it all day long with out throwing blood all over the place. Down side, I can't shoot production with it. Advantage over other shooters ?, none what so ever.

[MTrout40]

OK, first we'll clear up a couple errors. At the 2005 Production Nats, the guns didn't go to 5th or 6th. They went to 3rd. Trust me, I was 4th. However I remember the person who came in 18th in Limited walking away with a gun. Production was definitely the bastard stepchild at that match.

As far as the dominance of one gun in Production...uhh which would that be? There are guns, Glocks, that are probably used by the majority of that Division but I certainly wouldn't say they dominate anymore. 05 Nats: 1st Place, Glock 34, 2nd Place CZ, 3rd Place CZ, 4th Place Glock 17, 5th place Beretta 96. Not exactly an dominating performance.

When I started this poll I deliberately left some options out. Keeping it the same is one of them. Simply because that doesn't address the intent of the division. The BOD can't decide what it should be. The rules were written without a specific mission statement and that a big part of why some of the rulings are ambiguous.

Yamil, you mention to Keep the Spirit of the Division. It's pretty obvious that there is no firm consensous on what the spirit is. Everyone has their own opinion but they don't all match.

As far as the idea of DQ'ing folks for unsportsmanlike conduct if they have a part that's not allowed. Umm, didn't you get bumped to open for a grip plug? Were you deliberately trying to cheat? Of course not. You just didn't know. That's part of the problem that I have with the rules as they exist. They need to be changed so that they are easily understandable. But without a template of what the goals should be? I hope not.

For those folks that seems to think that IPSC rules with limited modifications are easy to enforce. Take a look at the Global Village (except you Jim) Vince Pinto seems to spend most of his waking life telling people that mods aren't allowed. And the last IPSC match I went to people were still breaking those same rules.

Probably after another week or so, I'll do another poll. One with more specific questions pertaining to the most voted on options here. This is just kind of general to get the parameters set.

As far as the top shooters making a lot of changes to their guns. Most really don't. Of those top 5 at the Nationals last year. The only one that wasn't IPSC legal, factory parts etc. was 1st Place. And that was one spring and a pound of trigger pull away from it. Those top 5 run with guns that are basically stock. Of the changes the CZ's had the most, but they're all legal under almost any rule set that we would use.

Lawman, I agree with most of what you said except for the bold part. You're looking at the top shooters in that division at the Nats. Some or all of the top guys are paid and/or sponsored by certain companies. For example, if you look at a few of the top limited shooters you would find a Springfield, a Para, and a Caspian. (Rob, Todd, Travis) But if you look at the poll results from the nats you would see that STI is the dominating force in numbers. To me it's the other people that matter more, especially in PD, than a handful of top shooters.

I'm not trying to drift off topic, but my point is, my opinion to the original question of the intent of production division should be a way to recruit new members to an inexpensive division that doesn't get too "racy" or favor one or two guns. We can't let that happen if we want to increase our exposure to new sponsors.

And FWIW, I'm not saying PD is even broken. It just needs tightened up a little.

[ysued]

One external modification I would like to see legal is allowing the addition of a beavertail. I like shooting my Glock but my hand is fairly large and I shoot with a high grip. I can't shoot my Glock for more than about 50 rnds. without cutting the web of my hand. I built up a beavertail using acraglass gel and some black dye and it looks great and better yet I can shoot it all day long with out throwing blood all over the place. Down side, I can't shoot production with it. Advantage over other shooters ?, none what so ever.

Sure, you can have it!!!

In Limited and Limited 10!!

Not in production!!

Get an M&P!! It comes with a beavertail from the factory!!

Y

Lawman, I agree with most of what you said except for the bold part. You're looking at the top shooters in that division at the Nats. Some or all of the top guys are paid and/or sponsored by certain companies. For example, if you look at a few of the top limited shooters you would find a Springfield, a Para, and a Caspian. (Rob, Todd, Travis) But if you look at the poll results from the nats you would see that STI is the dominating force in numbers. To me it's the other people that matter more, especially in PD, than a handful of top shooters.

I'm not trying to drift off topic, but my point is, my opinion to the original question of the intent of production division should be a way to recruit new members to an inexpensive division that doesn't get too "racy" or favor one or two guns. We can't let that happen if we want to increase our exposure to new sponsors.

And FWIW, I'm not saying PD is even broken. It just needs tightened up a little.

You both have a point, very good ones!!

but..

Like you say, PD is not broken, but it must be cleaned up fast, before it becomes DA, Minor Limited!! Believe me, it's heading that way!!

Litle by little, if the BOD does not tighten the reins on it, we will turn it inot another Expensive part of the Gun race!!

I find it extremely challenging to shoot and compete with a Box stock gun, it's fun!!

Y

Edited September 10, 2006 by ysued

[ipscbob]

Thanks for this Poll, I really think that we can come to a concensus here and results can be sent to USPSA and a New set of Rules that make most of us happy, not only the 1% that wasnt DA Limited.

This poll represents WAY less than 1% of the membership!

[ysued]

Thanks for this Poll, I really think that we can come to a concensus here and results can be sent to USPSA and a New set of Rules that make most of us happy, not only the 1% that wasnt DA Limited.

This poll represents WAY less than 1% of the membership!

So, this makes my point, 1% of 1% wants PD to become DA Limited Minor!!

[Chuck Anderson]

Lawman, I agree with most of what you said except for the bold part. You're looking at the top shooters in that division at the Nats. Some or all of the top guys are paid and/or sponsored by certain companies. For example, if you look at a few of the top limited shooters you would find a Springfield, a Para, and a Caspian. (Rob, Todd, Travis) But if you look at the poll results from the nats you would see that STI is the dominating force in numbers. To me it's the other people that matter more, especially in PD, than a handful of top shooters.

I'm not trying to drift off topic, but my point is, my opinion to the original question of the intent of production division should be a way to recruit new members to an inexpensive division that doesn't get too "racy" or favor one or two guns. We can't let that happen if we want to increase our exposure to new sponsors.

And FWIW, I'm not saying PD is even broken. It just needs tightened up a little.

The point I was trying to make is that for the new shooters looking at the top there is not one dominant gun. Going down to top 10 or 15 there were other choices in there including Sig and Springfield. I'm sure I'm probably missing a couple as well. Most of those guys aren't sponsored by anyone. Production really is a division that offers choices in your gun platform. There is not one dominant platform that is required to shoot at top level.

This is great because other manufacturers are more likely to be willing to support the sport when their product is competetive. Other than those three shooters you mentioned (plus Dave with his Glock) there really aren't that many other shooters or designs. With Production there are half a dozen gun brands, heck, probably even more than that that could win a Production championship. I'm curious to see what happens at this years Nats as far as gun choices.

[wide45]

Run it like a claiming race.

Few, easy to spot restriction on modifications. Must fit in box.

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800.

You could stay under the $800 easy with a Glock, or sombody else's no frills model, basic kydex etc. If someone thinks yours is better, you'll make money selling it to them.

Start running $200 trigger jobs, or use a top doller race holster, and someone will get a sweet deal.

Edited September 10, 2006 by wide45

[ysued]

Run it like a claiming race.

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800.

Make it less than that!!!

I got my 2nd Gen G17 (17 years old just last month) for $300, $20 for an Uncle Mikes holster, $50 for 4 Uncle Mikes Holsters, $14 a pop for G17 hicaps, $50 for Heinies and then Erics Grip tape!!

IMHO, you don't need anything more than that to be competitive in Production!!

Y

This is great because other manufacturers are more likely to be willing to support the sport when their product is competetive. Other than those three shooters you mentioned (plus Dave with his Glock) there really aren't that many other shooters or designs. With Production there are half a dozen gun brands, heck, probably even more than that that could win a Production championship. I'm curious to see what happens at this years Nats as far as gun choices.

Tell you what...

The M&P9 is a great production gun!!

I shot my buddy's yesterday, WOW!!

I'll be shooting it from now on in PD!!

No changes (maybe sights if I can fit the S&W 1911 Heinies on it), and of course when Eric gets in gear with Grip Tape for it!!!

Edited September 10, 2006 by ysued

[Loves2Shoot]

That is just dumb, but that is just my opinion. My production equiptment is pretty simple, but it can win any match in the right hands.

When was the last time the equpitment won a big match?

Look at all the open major 9mm guns or shortys, are any of them winning the major matches? People want to spend money for things that they "think" will give them an advantage. Just look at the top shooters and their gear, not much that is too trick, that stuff is mostly in A,B, and C Class.

The top shooters know what works, and it is pretty simple. People want to spend money, that just the American way. So, whatever the rules are they need to be simple enough and smart enough to keep people from skirting them.

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800.

[Chuck D]

"Run it like a claiming race.

Few, easy to spot restriction on modifications. Must fit in box.

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800."

Ah.....no.

Tighten up (i.e. clarify) the rules so Mr. Amidon isn't answering a thousand questions a week , keep IDPA's SSP rules in consideration so to encourage "crossover", steer WELL clear of the "botch-up" IPSC has created with their "rules interp." and have at it.

Crirical areas of concern.... for me anyway.

1. 10 round limit

2. Trigger pull weight rules... keep what we have.

3. No External modifications.

4. Sights must fit in factory dovetail and must be conventional "notch and post."

5. No race holsters

6. Barrel replacement...keep what we have.

7. Scoring...keep what we have.

Edited September 10, 2006 by Chuck D

[ysued]

That is just dumb, but that is just my opinion. My production equiptment is pretty simple, but it can win any match in the right hands.

When was the last time the equpitment won a big match?

Look at all the open major 9mm guns or shortys, are any of them winning the major matches? People want to spend money for things that they "think" will give them an advantage. Just look at the top shooters and their gear, not much that is too trick, that stuff is mostly in A,B, and C Class.

The top shooters know what works, and it is pretty simple. People want to spend money, that just the American way. So, whatever the rules are they need to be simple enough and smart enough to keep people from skirting them.

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800.

Not dumb at all!! It was just a Brain Fart I bet, but it was Imaginatieve indeed!!

This Division doesn't need to turn into a gear race!!

But some want it to become one.

If we look at PD, we should look at:

Who wins?? With what gear?? Modifications??

You said it yourself, most of these modifications are "perceived", not "Real"

And the Rules need Tweaking and Tightening-Up to Plug-up the Loopholes that allow folks to go through them.

Tighten up (i.e. clarify) the rules so Mr. Amidon isn't answering a thousand questions a week ,

And John should not be expected to give out Rulings either!! If you have a question on the applications of a rule, or want to get a piece of gear approved for PD, don't bother John with them (i've done that myself). Wait till a Board Meeting and let the BOD keep it under consideration until the reules are reviewed again!! All this Contacting John every time we want to add more bling to our PD guns ends up confusing the issues more and more. Just a thought.

keep IDPA's SSP rules in consideration so to encourage "crossover", steer WELL clear of the "botch-up" IPSC has created with their "rules interp." and have at it.

I like some of the SSP Rules, the Holster Rules are weird to say the least, and very subjective (that light through the Belt-Loop sucks)

Crirical areas of concern.... for me anyway.

1. 10 round limit

2. Trigger pull weight rules... keep what we have.

3. No External modifications.

4. Sights must fit in factory dovetail and must be conventional "notch and post."

5. No race holsters

6. Barrel replacement...keep what we have.

7. Scoring...keep what we have.

I agree with you on all o the above!!

I hope they listen to you.

Y

Edited September 10, 2006 by ysued

[Loves2Shoot]

I said it was dumb for many reasons. #1 What about the guy who has a Sig P226 and Bladetech gear with a CR belt? Or the guy who wants a hardchrome finish because he lives in a humid climate and doesn't want rust? Setting a dollar limit to fit your pet gun and gear isn't a thought out reason for a major change like HAVING to sell our stuff if you win and someone wants it.

If you want to shoot a surplus Glock fine, nothing wrong like that, people like Lawman (Chuck) get as good as they are from working hard and dedication to improvement. He practiced and traveled a LOT.

Most good shooters will tell people trying to "buy" improvement, greatness is in the sweat, not the dollars spent on gear. But this is still America last I checked.

[GeorgeInNePa]

That is just dumb, but that is just my opinion. My production equiptment is pretty simple, but it can win any match in the right hands.

When was the last time the equpitment won a big match?

Look at all the open major 9mm guns or shortys, are any of them winning the major matches? People want to spend money for things that they "think" will give them an advantage. Just look at the top shooters and their gear, not much that is too trick, that stuff is mostly in A,B, and C Class.

The top shooters know what works, and it is pretty simple. People want to spend money, that just the American way. So, whatever the rules are they need to be simple enough and smart enough to keep people from skirting them.

After every match, any competitor may buy any other competitors gun, and gear, with all mags, holster pouches and belt, for $800.

+1, I agree with Loves2Shoot.

There are just enough bright ideas in this thread that, if implemented, would cause many problems. Production Division grows every year, why is it necessary to mess with it?