In The Box / Out Of The Box

[Nik Habicht]

I have never under stood the argument that because 200 previous shooters didn't think of it why it should not be allowed. If the unique approach is within the rules, then why not. If I wanted every shooter to run every COF the same way, I would shoot that other sport.

just because the 1st 200 people didnt think of it isn't a valid reason to keep #201 from doing it. really, it depends on what the 1st 200 shooters were told.

I let him, because the stage description didn't say not to, and if the rest all follow the leader, well, that's their choice. Just because someone finds a different way, within the rules, doesn't mean it's illegal, or even an advantage. It's just different. As long as it's legal, then go with it. The rule is clear about what constitutes faulting; standing on top of the box isn't a fault, although it can be prohibited in the WSB.

Troy

That was the exact response I was looking for. When I design stages my favorites are "Feet or Hands touching XXs" or "Standing anywhere in the Freefire Zone."

It comes down to expectations. If I'm at a match, expect me to seize every advantage I can, be it real or perceived.

If we're going to run on the basis of what the MD/RO/Stage Designer *wants* versus what is in the WSB, then don't call it a match. Call it a "dogmatic practice session that is scored". A match it is not.

If the stage designer wants something specific, they should write it in English. I know when I design a stage for a major match at Old Bridge, I usually wind up having a conversation with the match director/RM about the WSB, clarifying just what I'm after. I like that kind of feedback/consultation --- it helps us to bulletproof the match, ensuring that stages run consistently, if not necessarily identically....

[shred]

Actually shooting boxes aren't defined anywhere in the current rulebook, and neither is 'out' or 'in'.

It was a while back they defined boxes as fault lines in a square. Since we use them a lot in classifiers, it makes sense to keep the same definition as when those classifiers were designed..

[mactiger]

If we're going to run on the basis of what the MD/RO/Stage Designer *wants* versus what is in the WSB, then don't call it a match. Call it a "dogmatic practice session that is scored". A match it is not.

I like that.

Troy

[Flexmoney]

But the way I see it is if the WSB doesnt say I can't stand on it ...........

then I can.

Yup...therein lies the rub.

Lets forget about the box for a second. Let's say that the start position is "seated on chair". How many different variations of that can we come up with?

We need to have clarity in our WSB's, especially with regard to start positions. As, different variations can easily save/cost a shooter half-a-second or more.

If we don't get that, then the CRO needs to ensure that nobody gets an advantage that another shooter was denied.

If we are talking about the stage I we are talking about (at A5), then that is what we have here.

Shooter X, who shot on Friday, was told that he couldn't be up on the box. He Unloaded and called for the CRO. The CRO had, I believe, talked this one over with the RM already. It was decided that the start position was standing within the box. Shooter X was OK with that. He called for the CRO to be sure that that was going to be how they called it all weekend long. He didn't want to be denied standing on the box if shooters would be allowed to do so on Sunday (just a check and reinforcement).

I had a similar issue/question at the Nationals last year. I forget the exact start position, but if the shooter were allowed to lean out a bit, they could see/shoot the first target without having to take a step. That was at least a quart second advantage...which played out to a bit more than 2 match points on this stage. There were plenty of shooters that could have changed position in the finals based on 2 match points.

I didn't care which way it was shot, so long as it was shot the same on Sunday as it was a few days before. Either allow it or don't...same for everybody.

[BDH]

I understand now that this is not a rules violation, but a Written Stage Description/Briefing, and therefore only enforcible by the stage designer or Range Master of that match.

Chris, personally, I think ALL of us wish that 'every possible situation' was defined by a rule, but who could carry all the rulebooks! More importantly, and what I can assure you of is that EVERY competitor started in the same position...

[Chris Keen]

I do appreciate that level of consistancy, but I am looking for a higher level of consistancy here.

A global Yes or No would do.

[Sestock]

Again, the start position isn't a faulting issue. The shooter can't fault a start position. Either the shooter is in the start position or isn't. If the shooter isn't, then the RO shouldn't start start them. If they do start them, it ought to be a mandatory reshoot.

You can fault a start position.

US10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the

firearm, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving

to a more advantageous shooting position, posture or stance

after the “Standby” command and prior to issuance of the start

signal will be stopped, if possible, and restarted. If the Range

Officer is unable to stop the competitor prior to the start signal,

the competitor will incur 1 procedural penalty.

[Flexmoney]

Faulting and creeping aren't the same thing, but I believe we are on the same page.

[Chuck Anderson]

I think a lot of it depends on the size of the match as well. At the club matches I use we all chip in as RO's and may have as many as 30 different people as RO's on the same stage. If everyone's not on the same sheet of music someone gets screwed. It's better to have it in the WSB.

That said, I've also shot major matches where things were enforced that weren't in the WSB. My first Nationals in 2001 there was a stage that said gun starts on table. I had my mag well modified previously to allow my gun to start standing up vertically, speeding up table draws. I had a very short argument with the CRO that since it wasn't specified that I couldn't do it, that I could. It was very short because it was like arguing with a 2x4. The whole response was, that's how everyone else did, that's how you're gonna do it.

[JayWord]

And that is why a good WSB states feet flat in box.

As a person who has had to read WSB that go to two pages to cover all the possible variations of start positions, gun positions, attachments, screws that are only on guns on table starts etc, etc. ............. it gets to be a pain.

Chris I feel your pain, but the goal of the CRO at any stage is to get a fair start for every shooter. Otherwise, we will have shooters digging starting blocks into the box on the run and gun stages. Don't laugh, been there have the Polo shirt in my closet where it occurred.

My walkthroughs state feet flat in box. It solves all issues.

The rule book allows me to do that under 8.1.3/8.2.2

Jay. Stage 1 CRO Area 5

BTW: Read the same walkthrough 30 times at a normal Area match. Remember the rules state it has to be read. 3.2.2.

Edited August 30, 2006 by JayWord

[Flyin40]

I do appreciate that level of consistancy

+1 on that. I watched shooters 3 days and they all had to do the same thing. Being left handed I really really wanted on top of the box This is the 2nd time this came up at a Major match in the last month. It was decided at the other match than one foot had to be "in the box" to start.

I guess there is too much inconsistency on this one. This discussion should help clear it up.

Flyin40

[BSeevers]

The real issue is if its not stated in the walk-thru THEN anything goes within the rules. Telling a shooter that he may not start on the box is as silly as telling him that he must shoot T2 first or go to ports right to left. No RO would think of doing that in our freestyle sport.

This year I have attended many majors where Stage 1 you could start on the Box and Stage 2 you could not by the whim of the CRO's. That is a problem. Yes they were consistant but consistantly wrong.

Of course I wouldn't even consider posting to this thread if the Stage Briefings stated feet flat in Box.

PS I don't like picking on RO's but this point of "on the Box" is related to the basics of our sport. Its really just freestyle stage shooting. As an RO my goal after safety and having fun is not affecting match outcomes. No re-shoots, no helping shooters or no restricting shooters if that makes sense. I am just Range Equipment. haha

Related to this I shot a major this year where the CRO said, "If you enter the Start Box before I invite you in the Box at the LAMR you will recieve a penalty. No kidding. I was trying to win so I didn't get into it with him or RM but boy that guy really doesn't get it. Oh we were not allowed to start on the Box at that stage either, of course.

[Micah]

Just saying that JA said this is so is not enough.

Having documentation that it IS so is something else.

The documentation was there, and to say that it doesn't mean squat is quite thuggish in my opinion. What separates IDPA from USPSA is the ability to make your own plan. I don't care if 200 shooters have shot a stage the same way...if I see something that is within the rules and is up to my ability, I'm going to go with it!

Either state an EXACT starting position, or leave it open to the shooters.I agree that until it is in Front Sight or in the rulebook, standing on the box is 100% acceptable.

[Jim Norman]

Power corrupts

Absolute power, corrupts absolutely

It applies even here in USPSA/IPSC shooting. You can do as the RO/CRO suggests (insists), or you can call the RM and have it out. After which your mindset will be less than game-on, now go shoot! Unless the call is inconsistent, or so blatantly against the rules that you have no choice, I say go with it. (Not my normal reaction by the way). The problem being that after you make the big noise, the word of it will travel ahead of you through the match. If it is a locally staffed match there is a chance, especially if you are not local that you will be perceived to be the "Bad Guy", not the other way around and you may find, shall we say a less than cordial reception ahead of you.

So long as the instructions are consistent, I'd try real hard to go with it.

I remember a match that had a plate that when hit caused a target to flip up (Kansas Flipper?) A shooter hit, or heard a hit on the plate; there was a mark, in fact multiple marks as the plate was not regularly painted. When he asked for a reshoot for Range Equipment Failure, the CRO offered to “Calibrate the Plate”. The shooter refused to sign the scoresheet as a protest. He did not arbitrate; the RM was called over and made the same offer, to calibrate the plate. The shooter received a zero for the stage and anyone that spoke up was told to basically shut up or face USC DQs.

Needless to say it is unlikely that I'll shoot that match again.

This is why we have rules and why they need to be enforced evenly and correctly!

Jim

[LPatterson]

Shot a stage last weekend where the starting box was made of 2X4's behind a Bianchi barricade & the side boards were flush with the edge of the barricade. If you weren't standing on top of the start box, it was an extreme stretch to see the inner targets.

If the stage setup notes call for a 2'X3' or 3'X3' foot box, are the measurements taken from the inside of the box or the outside? Charge & fault line heights are covered in 2.2.1 & lengths in 2.2.1.2 but nothing deals with internal demensions of the starting box. If a classifier calls for a 2'X3' starting box does that mean the inside dimension or the outside?

Could it be this is why so many people want to start standing on the box?

[Carmoney]

This thread started because of the way one particular stage at one particular match was administered.

I happened to shoot that match. I agree the RO wasn't correct, but I didn't get too worried about it, as I saw very little real advantage to having my foot a couple inches further to the right, up on the wood. (Plus it was pretty obvious everybody was getting the same routine.)

I'll admit I had to suppress laughter when I was also told by the same RO where my shoulders needed to be, how my head needed to be positioned, and even where my eyes needed to be focused (on the orange clay target placed downrange), before he would say "Are you ready?"

About the only thing he didn't tell me was what I needed to be thinking prior to the buzzer!

Ah well, I'm sure they meant well.

[Chris Keen]

Sorry Mike, IMO it would have made a huge difference. That was the only extra edge anyone could have gotten on that stage. And you're right, everone started the same for the entire match. But no, it was no big deal. You deal with what you have to deal with in life or USPSA.

The point is we need to agree that if the written stage description dosen't forbid it, then it's legal. There should be NO hassle over that issue.

Black and white ........ or it's RIGHT!

[ima45dv8]

.......I was also told by the same RO where my shoulders needed to be, how my head needed to be positioned, and even where my eyes needed to be focused (on the orange clay target placed downrange), before he would say "Are you ready?"

About the only thing he didn't tell me was what I needed to be thinking prior to the buzzer!

And this was a USPSA match, right?

Wow....

[GeorgeInNePa]

.......I was also told by the same RO where my shoulders needed to be, how my head needed to be positioned, and even where my eyes needed to be focused (on the orange clay target placed downrange), before he would say "Are you ready?"

About the only thing he didn't tell me was what I needed to be thinking prior to the buzzer!

And this was a USPSA match, right?

Wow....

+1 on the WOW.

That's the silliest thing I've ever heard.

[bobert1]

This thread started because of the way one particular stage at one particular match was administered. .....

Actually the Kentucky State Match had the same bogus RO instructions on several stages. So this issue does involve more than one stage at one particular match.

I will say that I received a great PMsg from the CRO who ran this stage and learned a great deal about Match Hierarchy and to whomb the Match staff takes their instructions from. I can say I have more respect now for this CRO because not only did He keep consistant thru the entire Match, and may not have entirely agreed with, but He also stood up to some close friends that He knew He would see many times through out the year officially and socially.

Edited September 6, 2006 by bobert1

[Carmoney]

That match (not Kentucky, the other one) had a very experienced staff running the show at the top levels. But if I'm not mistaken, many of the local folks--which undoubtedly includes quite a few of the volunteer RO staff--have fairly recently transitioned from IDPA to USPSA. That could explain some of what happened. My guess is by the time the more experienced USPSA staff folks knew what was going on, a number of shooters had already gone through the stage, and the decision was made to keep it the same for everyone. I'll bet it won't be a problem next year. And as all of you have acknowledged, it was a very nice match overall.

Edited September 6, 2006 by Carmoney

[Flexmoney]

That match (not Kentucky, the other one) had a very experienced staff running the show at the top levels. But if I'm not mistaken, many of the local folks--which undoubtedly includes quite a few of the volunteer RO staff--have fairly recently transitioned from IDPA to USPSA. That could explain some of what happened. My guess is by the time the more experienced USPSA staff folks knew what was going on, a number of shooters had already gone through the stage, and the decision was made to keep it the same for everyone. I'll bet it won't be a problem next year. And as all of you have acknowledged, it was a very nice match overall.

Very insightful.

[ampleworks]

I feel a stage should be RO'd more consistantly than anything. Isn't the entire reason for dedicated ROs at a big match?

Ugh don't get me started on the '06 Ky stage that had "if the plate turns sideways, we'll call hit and you go on, we will not declare range equipment failure"................uh huh

[Flyin40]

.......I was also told by the same RO where my shoulders needed to be, how my head needed to be positioned, and even where my eyes needed to be focused (on the orange clay target placed downrange), before he would say "Are you ready?"

About the only thing he didn't tell me was what I needed to be thinking prior to the buzzer!

And this was a USPSA match, right?

Wow....

In all fairness to the CRO he did exactly what he needed to do. The fault lines didn't run the same way as the berm, which is what the 180 is determined by. Basically competitors were trying to face down range based on the fault lines which was wrong. Facing downrange was based on the berm, not the fault lines. There happened to be a clay pigeon left out there from some other practice session. The start position required you to face downrange and the clay pigeon was given as a reference point. If you didn't face toward the pigeon then you were not following the start position. The RO did exactly what he was supposed to do. Made sure everyone started the same way.

As far as In and Out of the box my understanding is the CRO already approached the RM and was given a ruling. The CRO has to follow the instructions regardless of whether he agrees with it or not.

I think this CRO handled the situation perfectly and I was there to witness it.

Flyin40

[Jim Norman]

OK, What we have here is a failure to communicate

Define the following:

Face downrange

In the Box

Heels on XX's

Heels rouching XX's

Hands touching XX's

Hands on XX's

Seated on chair

Laying on bed

My opinon only is that if you want mey feet in an exact place, paint two foot prints on a board and nail it to the ground

You have a specific start position in mind, take a picture and post it on the stage as a part of the WSB.

If you say seated on the chair, I will put at least one cheek on the seat and wind up like a coil spring for the start.

The sport is Free Style. and that includes the start within the parameters of the WSB.

That said, if you want the shooter to start in a particular position, it is easy, at least with a dedicated RO, just state in the WSB "As demonstrated by the RO" That would make the directions given fit within the rules.

Jim