In The Box / Out Of The Box

[Chris Keen]

Why can I not STAND ON the starting box prior to the start signal.

I've passed the RO class, & I've shot at least 100 matches ... some big, and some small. But I can not, for the life of me, put this issue to rest. I've seen RO's who call it either way. I've been told I can stand on the box ONLY AFTER the start signal, and I've been told you can't stand on it at all. Other RO's say you can have 1 foot on the box, but not both (prior to start signal). Others say do what you like, just don't touch the ground OUTSIDE the box with either foot.

A friend of mine e-mailed John Amidon who said it is perfectly legal to stand on the box, as long as you are not touching the ground outside the box. But I heard one RO at a major match this last weekend say "John Amidon isn't here, is he?"

He said JA needs to explain his reasoning to his CRO's or else what he said is just hearsay.

I don't see this as a giant issue ...... but let's agree to be consistant on this.

One way or the other guys.

Edited August 29, 2006 by CHRIS KEEN

[shred]

How hard can it be?

A box is four fault lines arranged in a square (unless we're talking cardboard box or some other non-standard shooting-box prop). Are you faulting a line or not?

Done deal.

Sometimes an RO will interpret the start position differently if it's an 'X touching the Y'-type deal. Sometimes you have to get yer toes up to it, sometimes you can have them on top of it. Those I can live with so long as they're consistent, but a box is a box around the world, and no different than any other area bounded by fault lines.

[AikiDale]

Why can I not STAND ON the starting box before the start signal.

Because the WSB said standing IN the box?

I'm with JA, if you are not touching the ground outside the box I'm okay with it but obviously there are those who just hate the thought of someone thinking of something they did not. Others of course understand the difference among in, on and out of the box and are trying to do the right thing. Maybe we need an FTDR penalty?

KIDDING! JUST KIDDING!

[ipscbob]

Maybe we need an FTDR penalty?

KIDDING! JUST KIDDING!

HAHAHA! Not funny!

As long as you are not touching the ground outside of the box, you are fine.

Edited August 29, 2006 by ipscbob

[Flexmoney]

I agree completely with what shred and others have posted, but...

Faulting has absolutely nothing to do with the start position.

The start position is defined by the written stage briefing. Questions on that should go to the CRO and/or Range Master. (so that everybody starts the same)

But, all the world of common sense should have the stage designer, CRO and RM defining the start position the same way we define faulting...they just don't have to.

A good stage briefing will take the call out of the CRO's hands by making it clear.

What I always fear might happen is that it will get called one way on a Friday, then called a different way on Sunday when the super squad shoots the stage.

[bobert1]

Here is the full text of the exchange between Mr Amidon anf myself. I too was surprised when we were told "John isn't here" by a CRO I respect very much.

From: John Amidon

To: bobert1

Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:47 PM

Subject: Re: Is this a definitive answer?

There is no ruling other than what is stated in the written stage briefing. Shooting boxes made out of two by fours are a common setup behind a Bianchi barricade, many shooters ask if it is all right to start standing on the 2X4's, and unless the stage briefing states that both feet must be flat on the ground, or standing on the X's, there is no fault done by standing on the top of the fault lines, there is only a penalty if you should fire a shot while your foot is touching the ground outside the fault line.

Regards,

John

-------Original Message-------

From: bobert1

Date: 06/04/06 19:15:20

To: dnroi@uspsa.org

Subject: Is this a definitive answer?

This came up at a major this weekend. I have generally stood on top of the box. I was told by a stage RO that there was a rule against it. The RO did not have time to show this rule and we all just followed the RO's instructions. I found this statement on BE's forum but the link to the ruling is dead.

FWIW, the materials used to make the "start box" or fault line are not considered "neutral zone". They are an extension of what could be called "fair ground" for the competitor. Touching the ground outside of the fault line is a procedural violation of the start position or a procedural penalty if firing a shot. Standing on the fault lines is not a violation and is a legal start position. If for some reason the stage briefing says you may not start on the fault lines, then you must start completely inside the box, or behind the fault line, not on top or over it. However, this must be written in the stage briefing. It should not be ad libbed by the CRO. This is why it's important to have a clearly written but complete stage briefing, one which includes where you must be in order to start.

Troy

Thank You,

Bob Faun TY51981

[mactiger]

I see that I said this once already.

Making a competitor stand inside the confines of the box when the stage briefing doesn't require it is purely arbitrary on the part of the RO. There is no reason for it. "In the box" and "out of the box" have been debated and explained many times over--this is a no-brainer, and the rules are clear as to what constitutes "faulting". Standing on the box ain't it.

An RO that doesn't have time to back up his call with the rulebook is just making them up, IMO.

Troy

[Steve Moneypenny]

I feel your pain chris, I asked the same question. Though we have to realize.. "JOHN SAID," is a common thing in big matches so unless it's posted in front sight or to the RO's in some other manner we are stuck.

When I shot this stage I asked the CRO's opinion, just so things would be consistant and I didn't want to argue/alienate my RO (most ro's are local and all of the local boys at that match were new (and did a superb job))

This was a start position thing where most times they don't allow it. And the range master had already ruled on it. It WAS consistant for the whole weekend though so that's all i care about.

For anyone asking YES it was a signifigant i'd say .5 -1 second advantage, and was a lot more "dangerous" in terms of getting a procedural to have to move your foot.

[Chris Keen]

This is all I could find regarding faults lines. It does not cover start positions, which seem to be governed by the written stage description. But when discussing fault lines & faulting .... keep in mind, that a shooter has not faulted until he/she is touching the ground BEYOND the fault line. Firing shots while standing on top of a fault line is perfectly acceptable.

January 2004 Edition Rule Book

10.2 Procedural Penalties – Specific Examples

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground beyond a Fault or Charge Line will receive 1 procedural penalty. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage while faulting, the competitor will be assessed 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, instead of a single penalty. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting a line.

[Chris Keen]

........ and for the record, I'm not talking about being consistant for a whole match. Thats nice. But why can't we get a firm ruling / wording on this issue and clear it up once and for all. I hate going to a Major Match in Michigan and being told I can't stand on the box, but at a Major Match in Pennsylvania it's ok.

I just hate going to a Major Match not knowing which rules we're going to be using this weekend.

[Nik Habicht]

Devil's advocate mode on: Let's pretend that I'm CRO ing one of these stages. The stage description is ambiguous --- says standing in Box A. It's Sunday and 200 competitors have already attempted the stage with both feet firmly planted in the dirt. Along comes competitor 201 who wants to start on the boards.

Do you let him? Why or Why not?

[Crusher]

If it doesn't say YOU CAN'T in the WSB, YOU CAN! Simple concept really.

Must have been a NOOB RO straighten his arse out please.

If I had $ .25 for every WSB that was lacking in an accurate desription of tha CAN'Ts and leaving the subjective call to the RO/RM I would be able to buy a few of Bedell's open blasters much sooner that I expecet to.

For all the would-be soon to be stage designers out there they MUST be VERY CLEAR in their WSB of the CAN'Ts.

Sorry for the rant but this is one of my own little crusades regarding the WSB and subjective rullings from ROs/RMs.

Edited August 29, 2006 by Crusher

[Nik Habicht]

I just hate going to a Major Match not knowing which rules we're going to be using this weekend.

Chris,

I used to hate too ---- but my shooting improved once I got used to the idea that I'd have to sometimes assume a specific start position demonstrated by an RO or CRO. I like starting with my heels on boards when the start is "Heels touching XXs." I don't always get to --- and no longer sweat that. It's faster and easier on the mental composure to just go with the flow.....

[ima45dv8]

The only shooters I discourage from trying to start by standing up on the fault lines, are short people.

[Jim Norman]

Someone once said that the freestyle portion of the COF begins with the "Beep"

I strongly disagree with that point of view.

If the WSB says standing in the FFZ, then naywhere in the freefirezone, facing any direction you want to is fine with me. If the WSB says heels touching the XX's, then my heels will be touching the XX's.

If the WSB is silent as to the position, then we start where we want, but standing erect with hands at sides. If the WSB says "As demonstrated by the RO", then so be it. Even better is a photo of the actual start position. No arguments that different ROs started the squads differently.

The default position for unspecifed hand position is I believe hands hanging naturally at sides. I have no problem with that as it keeps one shooter from having his hand 1/4" from the door knob and the other hand 1/4" off the grip of his pistol, but other than the default hand position, Free Style RULES. If I see a hole in your stage design, I will use it.

An interesting aside to this is that not all holes are ones that we want to take advantage of as sometimes they are really mental traps as in "Ah HAH! I found a hole in your design that I will now exploit" only to find that in reality, just shooting straight up was faster.

So, you want to stand onthe start box, OK, Heels on XX's, if the XX's are on the rear board of the box and you want to put your feet on the top as opposed to against the rear, be my guest.

Jim

[AikiDale]

Devil's advocate mode on: Let's pretend that I'm CRO ing one of these stages. The stage description is ambiguous --- says standing in Box A. It's Sunday and 200 competitors have already attempted the stage with both feet firmly planted in the dirt. Along comes competitor 201 who wants to start on the boards.

Do you let him? Why or Why not?

Yes.

Because there is no penalty until he fires a shot touching the ground beyond the fault line. This is not my opinion. This is what Troy says. This is what John says. And most importantly, this is what the current rule book says.

[bobert1]

Devil's advocate mode on: Let's pretend that I'm CRO ing one of these stages. The stage description is ambiguous --- says standing in Box A. It's Sunday and 200 competitors have already attempted the stage with both feet firmly planted in the dirt. Along comes competitor 201 who wants to start on the boards.

Do you let him? Why or Why not?

I have never under stood the argument that because 200 previous shooters didn't think of it why it should not be allowed. If the unique approach is within the rules, then why not. If I wanted every shooter to run every COF the same way, I would shoot that other sport.

[driver8M3]

Devil's advocate mode on: Let's pretend that I'm CRO ing one of these stages. The stage description is ambiguous --- says standing in Box A. It's Sunday and 200 competitors have already attempted the stage with both feet firmly planted in the dirt. Along comes competitor 201 who wants to start on the boards.

Do you let him? Why or Why not?

just because the 1st 200 people didnt think of it isn't a valid reason to keep #201 from doing it. really, it depends on what the 1st 200 shooters were told.

[Flexmoney]

I too was surprised when we were told "John isn't here" by a CRO I respect very much

It is important to remember that Amidon (or Troy...or any of us) are only putting out opinions on these matters.

What we have to go off of is the rule book, and the few "official ruling" that are posted on the USPSA website.

Everything else follows the chain of command, which is outlined...in the rule book.

So, while it may sound brash, the "John isn't here" comment is the right line of thinking. The responsibility and authority for the call are spelled out in the rulebook.

What a shooter might have pushed for in this case...and would be a reasonable request in my opinion...is a re-write of the WSB to clarify the start position.

[mactiger]

Devil's advocate mode on: Let's pretend that I'm CRO ing one of these stages. The stage description is ambiguous --- says standing in Box A. It's Sunday and 200 competitors have already attempted the stage with both feet firmly planted in the dirt. Along comes competitor 201 who wants to start on the boards.

Do you let him? Why or Why not?

I let him, because the stage description didn't say not to, and if the rest all follow the leader, well, that's their choice. Just because someone finds a different way, within the rules, doesn't mean it's illegal, or even an advantage. It's just different. As long as it's legal, then go with it. The rule is clear about what constitutes faulting; standing on top of the box isn't a fault, although it can be prohibited in the WSB.

Troy

[Chris Keen]

We can't ask for a re-write of the WSB on every stage, at every Major Match that enforces a different version of the rules.

We need an official ruling on this one.

[Flexmoney]

...why can't we get a firm ruling / wording on this issue and clear it up once and for all. I hate going to a Major Match in Michigan and being told I can't stand on the box, but at a Major Match in Pennsylvania it's ok.

I just hate going to a Major Match not knowing which rules we're going to be using this weekend.

I doubt there will be a ruling, because isn't a stage design issue.

Again, the start position isn't a faulting issue. The shooter can't fault a start position. Either the shooter is in the start position or isn't. If the shooter isn't, then the RO shouldn't start start them. If they do start them, it ought to be a mandatory reshoot.

I think there is a legit gripe here, but I think it goes on the stage designers shoulders..and on the RM (final authority on the WSB). I don't think it is really a rules issue.

I think we all are used to the "standard" wording that gets out into WSB's. But, that "standard" doesn't always mean the same thing to different people. So we get some of what we have seen here...a failure...to communicate.

Let me give a few examples that I have had lately...

- As CRO a the Area 8 match, my stage started in the common "hands relaxed at sides" start position. Now, from the debate that I have seen on this forum, I know that some debate what that means (IPSC Monkey?). So, I asked my RM to change my WSB to read just "hands at sides". That way, my RO's and I didn't have to play judge to decide what "relaxed" meant.

- For the upcoming Ohio match, we have a start position of "hands above shoulders". One of the RMI's that reviewed our stages for approval suggested that we go with "hands above respective shoulders". That would have be fine...if that is what we were after. We do, however, have shooters that shoot Steel Challenge. Some of them like to get both hands over toward their strong side. I choose wording that would allow that.

Point here...the wording needs to come out of the stage design and the WSB.

We can't ask for a re-write of the WSB on every stage, at every Major Match that enforces a different version of the rules.

We need an official ruling on this one.

Man...I go for coffee...and you guys post quick on me.

As I mentioned above...it doesn't look like a rule issue to me.

But, bringing it up at Major matches and talking about it here on this forum is the first step toward rattling the stage designer's cages.

[EricW]

If somebody doesn't want me standing on their 2x4 box, then they would do well to break out the welder and make one out of 1/8" flat bar so that I'm not going to trip on it while hauling ass out out there.

As usual, it seems that the only answer to "I never thought someone would do *that*" is enforced regression to the mean.

[Chris Keen]

Fault lines must be at least 2 cm high (if Shred was not wrong in saying that a box is really just 4 fault lines arraigned into a square).

I understand now that this is not a rules violation, but a Written Stage Description/Briefing, and therefore only enforcible by the stage designer or Range Master of that match.

Not worth $100 to fight this one.

But the way I see it is if the WSB doesnt say I can't stand on it ...........

then I can.

[EricW]

It comes down to expectations. If I'm at a match, expect me to seize every advantage I can, be it real or perceived.

If we're going to run on the basis of what the MD/RO/Stage Designer *wants* versus what is in the WSB, then don't call it a match. Call it a "dogmatic practice session that is scored". A match it is not.