What Do We Want Revolver Division To Be?

[revchuck]

Strangely enough for this IDPA SSR shooter, I voted for the limited option, but I really meant "Limited 6". This permits the tinkerers to tinker, and those who don't want to mess with their guns to shoot them as they are. I'm among those who don't think the doo-dads will make an appreciable difference.

If we were to go more toward the Production route, USPSA could cut-and-paste most of the IDPA revolver criteria and have most of the bases covered. This would, however, cause as much fear and loathing in Sedro Woolley as the opposite would in Berryville.

[wlktheduk]

I am with Revchuck, in that what I would like revolver to be something along the lines of "Limited 6"

No comp's, no dots, 6 shots and then reload. If you want to "tinker" with your wheel, go ahead.

But remember to have fun with the wheelgun.

[10mmdave]

I'm going with Limited six.

And to all the "don't ask don't tell folks"

When do you want to find out your revo "does not comply" ??

At a match...at the end of a match...after you just shot your best match ever !!

It doesn't have to be a revo shooter that questions your ride, it can be anybody !

The more folks we get in Revo the more issue's there will be, right now trigger stops are

mentioned over on the IPSC brd (I know I know we ain't IPSC but our BOD listens to them)

So can "non-stock" chamfering be far behind ??

We are all a great bunch of lovable, friendly shooters, until we start getting beat by somebody else,

so don't say you won't be questioning a lightened, lengthened, special caliber, unobtainum

revolver might have given that guy (or gal) that extra edge to place higher than you.

It obviously was an issue over at ICORE or it wouldn't have come up as a rule change.

Fix it now so the issue's won't come up in the future, the whole reason this thread (and the other)

started was because the rules were not clear, and since they're not clear we have seen differing

opinions from RO's on the barrel issue.

So what can I do to help get LIMITED 6 in USPSA ??

Email my Area Director ?? Email USPSA ?? Is this forum and poll enough ??

[Jerry V]

Be careful of the term "Limited Six"

A autoloader can be downloaded to six rounds also and don't think someone wouldn't try that loophole

[AzShooter]

Well, I just spent an hour looking for an old steno pad that had all my shooting data from years ago. Never move, and if you do never let your roommate put away your stuff.

Years ago I was a pretty fair revolver shooter. I tested everything I could to see what advantages there were. I had bull barreled Model 10s and shot them next to my standard model 10s. Guess what? There was a big difference not only in accuarcy but in split times. The heavy barrel was much quicker ( for me ) to put back on target. If I had my book I could give you the exact difference but it was enough that for six shots it made sense to have the heavy barrel. Add it up during a match and it made a big difference compared to my stock gun.

After that I went to the 586. I had a Nowlin Underlug on that one which was great for testing the same theory. Shoot and record split times without the underlug, than add it and do the same. Again, times were much faster with the extra weight. This would be true with a heavy barrel compared to a light barrel at the same length. It's most obvious with Major loads compared to minor but even with minor there is a difference.

Ports do the same thing. Why do you think so many people are using them in their open guns? If it didn't make a difference they wouldn't be there.

[Nemo]

See what happens here when you leave for the weekend...

I voted for rules more like limited. Revo rules now are Ok, but I agree with RGS that they could use some clarification.

Still I'm in the more-close-to-limited rules boat, as opposed to production. First, I wouldn't like to have a mandated equipment position (my reloads are bad enough as it is now) Also, if it's an iron-sighted (no optics), non-ported revolver and you fire 6 reload and fire 6 again, I don't have a problem competing against you.

If you want to use your old PPC .357 8-3/8 Shilen bull-barreled 686, go ahead. If you want to use your grandpa's M-10, it's fine too. You want to draw from your IDPA kydex, fine; you want to run a CR-Speed rig, OK.

But then, when the day comes that I pull the trigger on my 625 and that horrible sound of a squib sends that 230grain plug just halfway down the pipe, but that subsequent pull was already underway... K-B00M! There goes (hopefully only) my barrel. What if I want to replace it with a 5-3/4" slab-sided pipe with a triangular half-length underlug. Would you feel threatened by me if I did that? (I'm sure Jerry would loose sleep and appetite... ) NO? Well, then bring it on.

Actually I wouldn't beat Jerry, Cliff, Hop, Car$, Carden, et. al, doesn't matter what I use (at least not yet...) So let me tinker... What's the deal if the underlug has holes? Are they ports? No? Then fine! What if I want to use one of those round 1" diameter PPC bull barrels. Is that going to give me an advantage? It may flip less but try to index that baby and do the up and down of the reload. It'll probably break my wrist.

Bottomline, there's the Carmoneys that like to DIY their guns and like them factory simple. Then there's the other club of heavy tinkerers that send their guns to Randy. Again, if it is a wheelgun, fires 6 reloads and fire 6, it's iron sighted and non-ported, there should be room for it in our division.

It's good to be back in the office.

L6

[10mmdave]

Be careful of the term "Limited Six"

A autoloader can be downloaded to six rounds also and don't think someone wouldn't try that loophole

Yes indeed Jerry V, the rules have to be written so no flat guns allowed, they have their

2-3 divisions (ah jeez I hope I didn't start something !)

[Waltermitty]

Be careful of the term "Limited Six"

A autoloader can be downloaded to six rounds also and don't think someone wouldn't try that loophole

Yes indeed Jerry V, the rules have to be written so no flat guns allowed, they have their

2-3 divisions (ah jeez I hope I didn't start something !)

Actually they have 5 divisions (Open, Lim, Lim-10, Prod, SS)

I don't think it's a good idea, but I will shoot against anybody that is willing to limit themselves to 6 rounds in their gun at any time. That means (for them) shooting to slide lock with 6 round mags on their belts, or carrying only 5 round mags for reloads on a loaded chamber. I don't think your typical "C" class Limited shooter could hang with your typical "C" class revolver shooter on one of them dern 8 reload 8 classifiers.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Be careful of the term "Limited Six"

A autoloader can be downloaded to six rounds also and don't think someone wouldn't try that loophole

Yes indeed Jerry V, the rules have to be written so no flat guns allowed, they have their

2-3 divisions (ah jeez I hope I didn't start something !)

This is getting confusing

[hdgun]

IMHO, I think revolver div is, might, be at a turning point. Like all the other divitions, they evolved from the very basic single stack 7-8 round mags to what we shoot today. Over time the open gun went from iron sights and a 1or 2 port comp to a dot and 29 round mags.

Same said for the limited div. Evolution, things change. Maybe its time for the revolver to start its change.

[Carmoney]

Well, I just spent an hour looking for an old steno pad that had all my shooting data from years ago. Never move, and if you do never let your roommate put away your stuff.

Years ago I was a pretty fair revolver shooter. I tested everything I could to see what advantages there were. I had bull barreled Model 10s and shot them next to my standard model 10s. Guess what? There was a big difference not only in accuarcy but in split times. The heavy barrel was much quicker ( for me ) to put back on target. If I had my book I could give you the exact difference but it was enough that for six shots it made sense to have the heavy barrel. Add it up during a match and it made a big difference compared to my stock gun.

After that I went to the 586. I had a Nowlin Underlug on that one which was great for testing the same theory. Shoot and record split times without the underlug, than add it and do the same. Again, times were much faster with the extra weight. This would be true with a heavy barrel compared to a light barrel at the same length. It's most obvious with Major loads compared to minor but even with minor there is a difference.

Ports do the same thing. Why do you think so many people are using them in their open guns? If it didn't make a difference they wouldn't be there.

I happen to own a fantastic custom 25-2 built personally by the late great John Nowlin, that has a short cylinder and a heavy Shilen ported barrel with two interchangeable removable underlugs. For standing and shooting at a single target, the heavy barrel might create a measurable advantage. But I would never choose it over a stock 625 for USPSA or ICORE because (as Nemo has already pointed out) in a run-'n'-gun situation all that extra weight out front is going to slow everything down. Transitions from target to target are going to be sluggy, reloads will suffer, draws will be slower.

For shooting USPSA matches with a wheelgun, you want to be using a gun with approximately the "right" weight. Too heavy (bull barrel?) and you wind up with a gun that shoots sluggish and slow. Too light (Ti cylinder? cut-down underlug?) and you wind up with a gun that kicks harder than necessary. By happy coincidence, the 5" 625 and 6.5" 25-2 seem to be almost exactly at the correct balance point for most shooters.

Porting? At 120 p.f.? Gimme a break. Even with pin loads, porting does just about squat.

To actually reduce revolver recoil, you need a big ol' comp out on the end, and even then it's mostly about the extra weight of the comp. Guys, everybody tried this at Second Chance for years, when the rules were wide open. But in the end, the winning revolvers nearly always had stock factory barrels, with no ports. For porting to do its thing, you really need to be shooting a high pressure cartridge that creates plenty of gas pressure, like the guys in Open division.

The placebo effect is a powerful thing. Let people tinker, if it makes them happy. It certainly shouldn't scare anybody. If it only goes bang 6 times between reloads, and it doesn't have an optical sight, bring it the hell on.

Or so it seems to me!

[10mmdave]

So, no new post's on this thread for 14 days, is this a dead subject or what ??

[AzShooter]

Seems like the majority just want it to be Six, reload etc. That's fine with me. We had a lively discussion a few weeks ago after our ICORE match and the only guys that complained about that idea said it would be unfair to the 8 shots because they'd have to learn to count.

Now, who's going to get USPSA to go along with the ideas. Basically is seems to be a barrel issue now. The six shot rule is already there and I'm for anything that keeps it that way.

Who really cares what you do to your gun? As long as you are happy and out there shooting with the rest of us.

[lcambre]

I voted for more like limited. I figure that if S&W refuses to make replacement barrels available for a lot of their guns then we should let people use aftermarket barrels.

[revoman]

I did not vote as I am torn between USPSA and ICORE. I like to shoot in USPSA with my 625 (need more practice) and I like to shoot open in ICORE with a custom 627 in 38 short colt from Pinnacle Custom. If rules for revolvers in USPSA were followed as what is written in ICORE except limit the stock revolvers to 6 rounds and open revolvers to 8 rounds. It would be black and white what is open and what is stock. I think we would have more revolver shooters in USPSA if we had both stock and open. Me myself, I will shoot whatever is dictated by the match I am attending and if I don't like the rules I don't go. Thats what makes America great., freedom of choice. Just my 2 cents

[Gary Stevens]

I have been following this for a bit, and need to get a clear understanding of what you guys want.

Are you saying you want a revolver that is produced for the mass public, that is 6 shots, no comps, no electronic sights, and everything else is OK?

Since we will be working on the new USPSA version of the rule book, which will include a possible tweek of some divisions, it would be a great time to get you guys what you want. Of course as soon as you decide on what you want, someone else won't like it

Gary

[Barrettone]

I have been following this for a bit, and need to get a clear understanding of what you guys want.

Are you saying you want a revolver that is produced for the mass public, that is 6 shots, no comps, no electronic sights, and everything else is OK?

Since we will be working on the new USPSA version of the rule book, which will include a possible tweek of some divisions, it would be a great time to get you guys what you want. Of course as soon as you decide on what you want, someone else won't like it

Gary

Gary,

According to the vote, it is nearly a 3.5 to 1 consensus that we want to mimmick limited division with the exception that we want to make sure that you only shoot six and reload, no dots or compensators. We (the vast majority) really don't seem to care what you do to the damn thing (trigger jobs, chamferring, sights, titanium cylinders, lightening or grip mods). I emailed this link to John Amidon, but haven't received a reply as of yet. If you are willing to champion this for us, I am sure that we would all be VERY grateful. We are just now beginning to experience a following in revo division, and are starting to see good turnouts at the major matches (particularly at the various sectionals, Area matches, and the upcoming Summer Blast and Nationals). It would be a good thing to be a bit pre-emptive, and head off any of the bickering that we see sometimes in production, as it would probably kill the REVOlution we are currently experiencing. I think sending a strong message that we want a LIMITED REVOLVER division, and NOT a Production Revolver division to the head honchos at NROI is something that needs to be done. Others please feel free to chime in if you have additional input.

DVC,

Jeff

[aerosigns]

I agree with Sensei Carmoney.

Leave it all alone. Clarification might be OK, in certain circumstances.

But keep it to 6, use the pointy things on top to aim with, and it has to eject six rounds of brass at a time.

If we have a Production Revolver class does that mean we would all have to have our 625's blued?

Jim

[chendersby]

OK at great personal risk to myself I offer up this idea. Instead of revolver being a single division by itself what if it was a catagory. Then you guys can have open, limited and production options. Just asking.

[revchuck]

OK at great personal risk to myself I offer up this idea. Instead of revolver being a single division by itself what if it was a catagory. Then you guys can have open, limited and production options. Just asking.

Chris - I'd recommend against that. I'm mainly an IDPA shooter, and when we did that it split the smallest IDPA division into two even smaller ones with nothing positive to show for it...and this is from a guy who uses speedloader-fed guns almost exclusively. My ears still hurt from shooters whining about having to shoot those heavy-recoiling 165 PF loads from three pound revolvers.

One of the positive aspects of USPSA Revolver division is that an IDPA revolver shooter just needs to add ammo carriers and s/he's ready to go. Most IDPA shooters who swing both ways (so to speak) shoot Production or L10 or SS for that same reason.

Using the Limited division as a model, but limiting capacity to six rounds, would give those of us who want to play with our revolvers the opportunity to do so. The rest of us don't give a rodent's rectum. It's my perception that USPSA revolver shooters have internalized the "It's the Indian, not the arrow" concept better than others.

[hdgun]

Gary,

According to the vote, it is nearly a 3.5 to 1 consensus that we want to mimmick limited division with the exception that we want to make sure that you only shoot six and reload, no dots or compensators. We (the vast majority) really don't seem to care what you do to the damn thing (trigger jobs, chamferring, sights, titanium cylinders, lightening or grip mods). I emailed this link to John Amidon, but haven't received a reply as of yet. If you are willing to champion this for us, I am sure that we would all be VERY grateful. We are just now beginning to experience a following in revo division, and are starting to see good turnouts at the major matches (particularly at the various sectionals, Area matches, and the upcoming Summer Blast and Nationals). It would be a good thing to be a bit pre-emptive, and head off any of the bickering that we see sometimes in production, as it would probably kill the REVOlution we are currently experiencing. I think sending a strong message that we want a LIMITED REVOLVER division, and NOT a Production Revolver division to the head honchos at NROI is something that needs to be done. Others please feel free to chime in if you have additional input.

DVC,

Jeff

++1

[pskys2]

The problem with categories, and/or restricting the Division, is that there's so few who shoot Revo now. We are experiencing a good growth pattern and it's best to not get restrictive, either in numbers or equipment.

My .02.

[hdgun]

The problem with categories, and/or restricting the Division, is that there's so few who shoot Revo now. We are experiencing a good growth pattern and it's best to not get restrictive, either in numbers or equipment.

My .02.

I don't think we are looking for categories, but looking to open Revo div to point were you can do what you want to your gun and still be legal. IE: barrels,either replacment or modified, cylinder work ect..

with the obviouse restrictions, 6 round only, no dots, no comps.

In turn IMHO will open this class to people who have there old PPC guns in the safe gathering dust to come on out and play.

I think with a little rewording of the current rules will satisfy just about any gun you have lying around. If it doesnt increase the amount of revo shooters it will open things up for shooters like my self, who want to experiment. And yes, I am a little bios!

[Nemo]

Are you saying you want a revolver that is produced for the mass public, that is 6 shots, no comps, no electronic sights, and everything else is OK?

YES... with the exception of the ugly auto-revo from Europe. I don't know if that one's six rounds or mass-produced but it doesn't play. The rest is ok.

Wouldn't turning our division into a category dilute it too much? There are too few of us but it starting to grow. Dilution is not the solution!

Do we have a rule writer amongst us that can come up with draft rules that encompass what we've discussed here? Maybe even circulate a word document, via e-mail, with "Track Changes" to those willing to look at it. Just an idea.

Here's the chance. Let's make it what we want!

+1 to BARRETONE.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Nemo

[COF]

Like Chuck, I'm primarily an IDPA shooter, although I've been shooting USPSA Revolver for our local matches for two or three years. This weekend's Area Three will be the first major USPSA match I've shot with a roundgun.

I like the challenge of trying to figure out the stage in 6 round increments - probably the same reason most of us shoot revolvers in what my wife calls a "masochistic exercise." We need to minimize the restrictions on the division, as enumerated by several others in this thread. We definitely don't want to do the same thing IDPA did and split the smallest division.

Jerry

Edited June 15, 2006 by COF