Prize Table!

[38superman]

That is from probably one of the longest members in B Class.

Trolling for companionship again, are we?

I probably shouldn't post before my first cup of coffee...

You round gunners are a different breed.

Always thinking about the length of your barrel.

I don't really care about the distribution of the prize table.

Organizers can do it any way they want.

I will say that the occasional match with a random drawing does give the less skilled shooters a chance to walk away with a decent prize.

That boosts morale and helps keep the new shooters coming back.

The top shooters usually come away with a nice trophy and some cash.

It's a win, win.

Tls

Edited April 26, 2006 by tlshores

[R112mercer]

My personal feelings on the whole "give something to a guy to encourage him" bit is that if he needs to be given stuff to keep coming back he's only going to get fed up and leave during a dry spell or when he doesn't get what he wants.

I like to compete, to see how well I can do. If that's not the point then why do we keep score? As a USPSA wheelgunner there's not much glory or prize money to get. Rarely do you score HOA, or even HOA on a stage. At major matches there might be 5-6 other wheelgunners to compare yourself to (but we're working on that ). I enjoy shooting, I enjoy finding my limits, and I really enjoy the people that I get to be around while I'm doing that. I don't think I've ever won money at a local USPSA match shooting wheelgun, but I keep coming back, to get practice, to see new stages, to hang out with the guys, or just to burn ammo on a nice day outside.

If somebody has the drive or desire he'll keep going till he gets to the top. I don't think you'll find a GM out there who will say he got there on luck or lack of practice.

As for the Lewis system, I tell people it's easy to figure out how to win money at it, one spot always guarantees a payout: 1st.

[cliffwalsh]

I think as long as the match officials announce how the prizes will be handed out in advance everything is fine. That lets the shooter decide if he or she wants to attend the match. If you decide not to fly across the country for a raffle, good for you. If you never score above the middle of the pack, maybe you go to the raffle match. Just tell us up front and we will decide where we want to shoot.

ps. I like the lewis system too.

Edited April 26, 2006 by cliffwalsh

[AzShooter]

Lower the entry fee. Shoot for wood and the honor of knowing you were the top dog that day. Perhaps cash to the top three in each division would also be a good idea as incentive to show up.

If the match is lucky enough to have a major sponsor, like Smith & Wesson that provides guns to the match ask the sponsor how they want them distributed?

Make the match worth the entry fee by the stage design, the way it is run and having good ROs that understand the rules. Pay the ROs!

Have lunch provided. Figure on that being $5 to $10 worth of the match fee.

[Viggen]

Your opinion on this subject will likely have something to do with your order in the food chain.

Not really. I am on the lower end of the food chain on this but I think the prizes should go to performance. I might get there, I might not but it seems to me that there should be incentive to achieve at a "big match" no just stand there with a ticket stub waiting for a drawing.

At some major matches what I have seen in addition to performance based prize awards is a drawing or two - a raffel, for those who want to get in on it.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Viggen

[pskys2]

Oh man! How I long for the 80's again. When there were no divisions or classes. It was all so simple, just heads up. All the prizes were available by order of finish and most everyone had the trickest pistol they could afford. But, alas we're all growed up now with Divisions & Classes & Categories & Sub-Categories.

It does seem interesting that a majority of us seem to favor "prizes in order of finish", yet most all matches go by drawing.

Except the AREA 3 last year which went mostly by "Order of Finish" in each division. Heck the Revolver Winner and the Revolver "C" class winner each got a gun or frame. Then they still had frames to give out by raffle.

[dillon]

Having come to ICORE from Cowboy Action Shooting, I have a bunch of experience with random prize drawing. In CAS, ability is recognized by awards in some form or another.

However, prizes have always been by random drawing. The rationale for this is that sponsors provide the bulk of product to be given away.If the top shooters, who are a very small percentage of the total number of shooters, and seldom vary,are the only ones to win the highest dollar items, then the sponsors products aren't being evenly dispersed.

We've all seen how the top shooters walk away from the prize table with a firearm, (or a Dillon loader) only to turn right around and sell it. They feel it is better for the sponsor to more widely distribute their products, giving them better results for their advertising dollar. For all shooting sponsorship is advertising, from the point of the one supplying the cash and merchandise necessary to putting on an event. Virtually never do the entry fees provide sufficient revenue to run a major event and not lose money. The lower end shooter is often more likely to use what they draw, and appreciates the product donation more than someone that already has the equipment , who merely turns it for cash.

Another point is that most shooting sports are a hobby, not a profession. The CAS view is to avoid creating a cadre of "professional " shooters. Randomizing the prizes helps

keep CAS a sport.

Please keep in mind this my personal experience only, and not a company position. I participate not only in CAS, but also USPSA and ICORE. Every sport has it's own perspective, but as I have spent many years on the organizational side in CAS, I feel I can provide their perspective on the issue. Hopefully this adds light, not heat to the topic.

[Cuz]

Both is a good answer, let it be determined by the match and if you don't like the format don't go. Is this game a hobby or a semi-professional sport?

I suck, so raffles are better odds for me. The guys who take this seriously usually want to be rewarded for it. There is no way to make both sides happy. The closest is that the top shooter usually sell the prize guns below market prices. That's why I will be bringing cash to the IRC

Jason

I think I'm with you Jason. Bring cash and hope to score a good deal from one of the "other" winners.

-Cuz.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Both is a good answer, let it be determined by the match and if you don't like the format don't go. Is this game a hobby or a semi-professional sport?

I suck, so raffles are better odds for me. The guys who take this seriously usually want to be rewarded for it. There is no way to make both sides happy. The closest is that the top shooter usually sell the prize guns below market prices. That's why I will be bringing cash to the IRC

Jason

I think I'm with you Jason. Bring cash and hope to score a good deal from one of the "other" winners.

-Cuz.

OR stand by the trash and wait for us that are so disgusted with performance to throw our gear away swearing never to do it again

[aerosigns]

I like Jasons' idea, that match directors should tell everyone how it will be done in advance. It could influence my choice of which match to attend.

I have been involved in some large shoots with door prizes. I have seen the HOA, and even the top three get guns. But the nice part was that they also had other guns, or large ticket prizes, etc. that then went by luck of the draw. So a little of both occurred.

One thing that I think makes a difference is the manner in which the door prize item is selected. I have never liked drawings where they pull a number out of the hat, and you mill around trying to figure out which prize that's left is a good one. After a while it is just a mess of people. Usually about half way through the crowd has lost all interest, and becomes a dull roar.

What was more fun, and held the interest of the room was when the directors would select various prizes, then pull the number out of a hat. Starting with the larger items then working down to the coffee cups, and shooting glasses. Then working back up to a large item, and repeat the process over and over. With the last ticket drawn for a big ticket item. With this system the crowd stays attentive. Friends have fun hoping they don't get drawn yet. Especially when the item up is a hat, and the next item is a TV.

I know that I have won door prizes that I look at as my trophy from that particular shoot. If it is only by position then just tell everyone who is not a GM, M, or maybe an A, to find something to do until their party is done. And thanks for the $85 - $150 entry fee you paid, knowing full well you had no chance of winning.

I have never attended or not attended a shoot because of door prizes. But it can brighten an otherwise bad day at the non-office.

Just my opinion.

Jim

[rwmagnus]

I don't know Randy, never talked with him...but he sounds like first class all the way. Whomever he gave that revo to will remember it until he dies. Good on you, Randy. You make us all look better.

I'll wholeheartedly agree. Very classy move.

+3 on Randy. I've only talked with him by phone but sounds like his reputation. It was an awesome thing to do. Randy I'm available for adoption, LOL! I had a goot time shooting with the Apex guys. They too did you proud Randy!

I still think the top 3 in each division should go by order of finish. 1st Open, 1st Ltd, 2nd Open, 2nd Ltd etc. After that go with the random draw.

[RPM8shot]

"Randy Lee won one of the revolvers by raffle and gave it to a local shooter that need a good revolver to compete."

In my experience with Randy is that he has always been a consistent class act.

Personally, I don't compete for the prize table. If I get a trip to the table, that is just icing on the cake.

Competitors should earn their trip to the table.

Leave the raffles for charity and bingo night.

Just me,

Renny

[EricBudd]

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about this. I think that the top shooters should be rewarded, but at trhe same time, if the match is buying the prizes (or paying prize money) is it better for most of the shooters just lowere the cost a shoot for plaques?

I guess that some/many top shooters wouldn't attend a match that didn't have biger prizes, but if you can lower the match fees from $100 to $50 for a match, is that better for the vast majority of the shooters. I guess it depends on the club and the match.

Another idea is to have two types of entry. $50 you shoot for wood. $100 you play for cash. The shooters who want to play for money/prizes can and the other shooters don't have to subsidize them.

[Matthew_Mink]

I wonder if that would work, 2 tiers of entry fees....thats not a bad idea for MD's.

But I can see what would happen. Some up and coming shooter going for a class win pays the Plaque only entry fee and ends up winning the division. The prize gun goes to the 2nd overall guy and much gnashing of teeth occurs.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

[R112mercer]

I wonder if that would work, 2 tiers of entry fees....thats not a bad idea for MD's.

But I can see what would happen. Some up and coming shooter going for a class win pays the Plaque only entry fee and ends up winning the division. The prize gun goes to the 2nd overall guy and much gnashing of teeth occurs.

The East Coast Revolver Race at Ontelaunee is like that. They actually have three different entry fees: A very low ($10-15) For Fun Only Entry (but you get a score), A $30-40 "Sportsman's" entry where you pay for a score and an entry in the random raffle, and a $50-60 "Pro" entry where you get cash for placement and an entry in the raffle. It seems to work nicely.

And, yes, if somebody paid for a "Fun" run and could have won money by place I'm sure they'd be p.o.-ed, but they'd only have themselves to blame. Next time risk the higher entry fee. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[imashooter2]

The East Coast Revolver Race at Ontelaunee is like that. They actually have three different entry fees: A very low ($10-15) For Fun Only Entry (but you get a score), A $30-40 "Sportsman's" entry where you pay for a score and an entry in the random raffle, and a $50-60 "Pro" entry where you get cash for placement and an entry in the raffle. It seems to work nicely.

And, yes, if somebody paid for a "Fun" run and could have won money by place I'm sure they'd be p.o.-ed, but they'd only have themselves to blame. Next time risk the higher entry fee. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

That entry into the raffle gets a lot of extra money into play and (IMO), more shooters to the event.

[AzShooter]

I was talking to an old shooting buddy about this tonight and he related what we did years ago. We both shot competitive archery in the Pro division. One of the biggest matches each year was in Las Vegas and it still is there. They get about 4000 shooters each year.

There are two entry fees. One for the Championship Line and another for squadded awards.

Money went to the top shooter, but that would also be great for a gun or any other payout the Match Director came out with.

Other shooters would be placed in Squads that only paid 10 deep. It was almost like the Lewis System for these Squads. You paid to play and got what you expected.

Not everyone can possibly win a prize and this seemed adequate enough to bring 4000 shooters each year. Just an idea.

[EricBudd]

The next question is, to people shoot for payout or to go shoot?

I'm thinking of runing an ICORE match at Guthsville Rod and Gun at the end of next month. I haven't decided what the match fee should be. Would guys perfer 10-15 for a 6 stage match with o payout, or $30+ with a payout?

Myself, I shoot for fun, not prizes. If I wanted prizes, it would be cheaper to just buy them instead of guns, ammo, and match fees.

[AzShooter]

Go with $10 - 15 and if you want to give anything out get some cheap ribbons or little 1st, 2nd and third place pins. After about a year we found that people weren't taking their ribbons and pins and we stopped giving them out. Most people shoot the local match for fun and practice.

[Mooney]

When I shoot a major match, my chances of winning the overall are slim to none. I will continue to try.

I am there because I love to shoot. I put time into the sport but not for "prizes" I don't want a trophy, I don't really care about prize tables. If I perform well enough to take a trip to the table all well and good but if I don't, I will support the guy or girl that wins because they earned it.

What all shooters should get is a shooters packet with something in it. Tube of oil, Tee shirt, anything to say we appreciate you spending your time and money to come and hope you come back.

The people that deserve a prize are those working the match as well as those winning. I would give up anything I won to make sure the ROs were taken care of.

Regards,

P Lets face it the class D winner is just as proud of their accomplishments as is the overall winner and both should be rewarded for their showings.

My 2 cents

I don't know Randy, never talked with him...but he sounds like first class all the way. Whomever he gave that revo to will remember it until he dies. Good on you, Randy. You make us all look better.

I don't know Randy, never talked with him...but he sounds like first class all the way. Whomever he gave that revo to will remember it until he dies. Good on you, Randy. You make us all look better.

I'll wholeheartedly agree. Very classy move.

+3 on Randy. I've only talked with him by phone but sounds like his reputation. It was an awesome thing to do. Randy I'm available for adoption, LOL! I had a goot time shooting with the Apex guys. They too did you proud Randy!

I still think the top 3 in each division should go by order of finish. 1st Open, 1st Ltd, 2nd Open, 2nd Ltd etc. After that go with the random draw.

What they said; but adding that Manville Sportsmans' Club in RI awards the division winners with free shoots if enough reps per division come. That way, everyone has a chance to grab a little something for next time. Some of the other clubs will give out a choice of a trophy or cash payback (winner's choice) for HOA depeniding on which club and where (local pin/ plate shoots). I don't know if that is the norm, as I mostly shoot USPSA revolver, with no prizes (nor do I expect any- I love the shooting for the shooting's sake- regardless of how poorly or well my squadmates or I do (right Gary?)) except match fee exemption for a future date; but it seems like a cool idea. I sure wouldn't mind a little trophy for the reloading area...

[imashooter2]

The next question is, to people shoot for payout or to go shoot?

I'm thinking of runing an ICORE match at Guthsville Rod and Gun at the end of next month. I haven't decided what the match fee should be. Would guys perfer 10-15 for a 6 stage match with o payout, or $30+ with a payout?

Myself, I shoot for fun, not prizes. If I wanted prizes, it would be cheaper to just buy them instead of guns, ammo, and match fees.

I've been to both your matches so far and I go to both the Ontelaunee matches as well. Since you asked, $10-15 entry fee means I'll shoot. $30 means I'll be doing something else that weekend.

[slughammer]

I'm thinking of runing an ICORE match at Guthsville Rod and Gun at the end of next month. I haven't decided what the match fee should be. Would guys perfer 10-15 for a 6 stage match with o payout, or $30+ with a payout?

For the PA dutch ICORE crowd, I think its best to give them the choice.

I can sleep better knowing I'm taking money from Willing Victims.

[Ron Williamson]

If you want a gun, go to a gun shop and buy one. Trying to win a gun is an economically losing proposition. Match fees, ammo expended, hotel, travel all will cost more than any gun that I have ever purchased. It's about competition and seeing your name on the list. Near the top is good, near the bottom is bad. I concur that raffles are dis-incentivizing, but the point is that even the richest prize table is still no match for staying home and spending the money on something you want. Most shooting events are "lunch with your friends and a drawing." At the upcoming IRC, the prizes will be awarded by order of finish. Winners in class, then top to bottom altenating Open and Limited.

Last September I flew to Philadelphia with my wife, spent an enjoyable weekend doing the tourist thing, then shot in the Ontelaunee match. They were kind enough to let me win. The top prize in the "Pro" category almost paid for dinner one night. In October Rich and I flew to Australia and shot in the Bendigo match. I won a plastic trophy and traded some shirts. Priceless. Last May we drove to Bud Bond's match in Colorado and I took a couple cans of powder off the table. A few weeks ago we flew to New Orleans and shot in the Southern Regional with Annette, Elliot, some guy named Jerry and his brother Donnie. That prize table was generous and I got a fine Dillon shooting bag that my wife confiscated to carry her Singer Featherweight in. Best experience in the world. It's about camaraderie, supporting the shooting sports and having a good time in the company of friends. If you want a fine prize, buy one.

The match fee should properly reimburse the organizers for all their effort, allow the sponsoring club to make some money and be a reasonable value. If you are a local shooter, then a $50 entry may seem high. If you are flying half way around the world, $50 gets lost in the pocket change. The truth is, shooting is darned expensive and getting worse every year. Trap shooting makes revolver shooting look positively a bargain. If it's important to you, the money will be afforded and the prizes are secondary.

See you in June, Bubber.

[Ron Williamson]

Oh, and I forgot one thing (old age - it happens). The young shooter who ended up with the Smith & Wesson was Matt Rackley, who just joined ICORE. I handed him his membership card at the match. Randy's gesture was absolutely top drawer and we could all do well to emulate it. Encourage the young shooters who don't have the resources - they are the future old members. As a testimonial, Randy did the trigger on my 627 and its first outing was the Philadelphia match. I guess that says enough about what an excellent gunsmith Randy is, in addition to being a gentleman. He's also a pretty darn good shooter as can be seen by the results from the ICORE Southwest Regional. http://www.icore.org/archive/2006/Southwes...esults2006.html.