Match Ammo

[Larry White]

I cant imagine that I would haul a shooting bag around a match with enough ammo to shoot three diffrent matches with three diffrent PFs. That stuff is heavy. I have a tool box on my truck for that(or a car trunk). I have been to a lot of matches, been asked for ammo a lot of times, no one has ever been overly intrusive, pushy or rude about it. If a shooter has, or wishes to make a issue of this I suppect the problem lies elsewhere.-------Larry

[shred]

I don't think the question is "what's a good ammo proceedure for pulling ammo for the chrono?" (which is a whole separate area worth exploring), but "can they ask for any and all ammo in your posession"

fwiw, I asked Amidon, so we'll see what he says.

for the IPSC shooters, Vince expressed the opinion that any and all ammo in the bag was not fair game, much as carrying an Open gun in your bag and not using it when you're shooting Production does not automatically move you to Open.

I believe everybody agrees the RO can't go searching your bag without your consent.

[driver8M3]

Case in point: at last year's Nationals in Barry, one of the foreign teams all handed over samples of ammo, then wanted them back, because it was "practice" ammo, they said. Unfortunately, they didn't get it back, and all went minor. I think maybe even a couple went sub-minor. You have to wonder about intent when something like that happens.

wow...reminds me of when sammy sosa got caught with the funny bat...that was his batting practice bat.

[Jim Norman]

In truth, I think that all but a very small portion of our fellow shooters play by the rules. Sometimes we cut it close, but I doubt that there are really that many that will try to shoot a 140 load in Open or Limited or a 105 load in Production.

That said, if you really think that someone is cheating, contact the RM and file a complaint. The RM can then have a samo=ple taken from the mags on the shooters belt and from the dropped mags on a stage.

Is it still possible that the shooter is cheating? Yes, of course, but if he is so good that we can only catch him by chrono-ing each round he shoots, I suppose he'll get away with it.

I do know that I've heard of people that use one ammo for long range standards and another for "Regular Stages", Both presumably make major, they just A- Feel Different and B- shoot more or less accurately than the other load.

What would the call on this practice be?

Jim

[ima45dv8]

I do know that I've heard of people that use one ammo for long range standards and another for "Regular Stages", Both presumably make major, they just A- Feel Different and B- shoot more or less accurately than the other load.

What would the call on this practice be?

Jim

As long as both make the declared PF, no problem.

[Kyreb]

As we speak..dogs are being trained to sniff out minor PF ammo. As we approach the match roadblocks will be set up and our vehicles searched just like down on the border.

excuse me I have to go now...the tinfoil lining my hat needs to be replaced....darn government satellites overhead ya know....and then there are those black helicopters USPSA is funding ...but that is another story....

[Vlad]

..and then there are those black helicopters USPSA is funding ...but that is another story....

I think I know why that land was purchased now .... training ground for the USPSA black helicopters.

[wide45]

training ground for the USPSA black helicopters.

Black Submarines, but you did not hear it from me.

[sperman]

Note: Posts below were merged into this thread from another. - Admin

I gotta ask. Why ask?

"Just curious" pretty much covers the why. I see chrono check and some fairly close

visual examination of the guns to determine division compliance. That's at the Area

level, and I did go to Nationals in Missoula last year. The box and weight rules were

put in place as division compliance tools. I don't see them being used here in the

Northwest, at least at the matches I've attended. Just wondering if it is the same

across the country.

Along a similiar line ...

I was surprised when I shot my first big match last month that they came up and asked for 8 bullets. If you were the unscrupulous type it would be pretty easy to have 8 special ones set aside for the chrono.

[open17]

[]

Along a similiar line ...

I was surprised when I shot my first big match last month that they came up and asked for 8 bullets. If you were the unscrupulous type it would be pretty easy to have 8 special ones set aside for the chrono.

I've also had them ask to pick from my ammo boxes, and also take from the ammo on my belt. True---an unscrupulous type could maybe "game" the chrono. Fortunately, shooters as a whole are among the most honest group of people I've ever met. We might game things a bit or a lot, snivel and whine about one thing or another---but the actual cheaters are few and far between, and they don't last long.

Hmmmm---I think I just drifted my own thread

Edited October 6, 2008 by open17

[kimel]

Ammo collection method is generally left up to the CRO on the stage where ammo is pulled (usually 1st stage of the match for your squad). Since everyone knows this, if they were going to cheat they would just make sure to use the right ammo on that stage. Therefore, I don't go through great machinations to pick ammo on the "all call" ammo selection.

However, if someone points out an ammo issue later the RM can, and usually does, employ other sampling methods. Hint: Don't have any ammo in your bag that isn't your match ammo. Period.

The chance of seeing a box or a scale (or a mag guage for that matter) at a local match are even more remote than seeing a chrono. It happens; it is fairly rare.

Boxes will be even more unusual for awhile as I don't believe there has been an "official" supplier of said boxes announced yet. But then I haven't checked on that in awhile either.

[shred]

Ammo collection method is generally left up to the CRO on the stage where ammo is pulled (usually 1st stage of the match for your squad). Since everyone knows this, if they were going to cheat they would just make sure to use the right ammo on that stage. Therefore, I don't go through great machinations to pick ammo on the "all call" ammo selection.

However, if someone points out an ammo issue later the RM can, and usually does, employ other sampling methods. Hint: Don't have any ammo in your bag that isn't your match ammo. Period.

Uh, we went around on this a while back. "any and all ammo in the bag" is not fair game for the chrono-picker. They have to get ammo you either have used or have an intent to use. Leftover loose rounds, ammo for another competitor sharing one bag (spouses do that, especially when flying to matches), ammo from another competitor (once at a match somebody with a similar bag dumped fifty round of who knows what in there) and so on are all reasons for differently-compliant ammo to share a bag, yet never be used for the match by the shooter in question.

[Gary Stevens]

Maybe yes and maybe no.

Appendix C2 item 29 says "It is recommended that ammunition be collected from the competitors as randomly as possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in the competition."

I would read that to say that any ammunition the competitor reasonably has available to them, and random ammo in their bag would fit that criteria, could be collected.

Normally I observe that ammo is removed from a shooting bag, loaded into magazines or other devices and then placed on the belt for use. The path of the ammo in use usually leads back to the shooting bag.

Of course the competitor has the option to file an arbitration to say that reading of the rule was wrong.

[CenTX]

I gotta ask. Why ask?

"Just curious" pretty much covers the why. I see chrono check and some fairly close

visual examination of the guns to determine division compliance. That's at the Area

level, and I did go to Nationals in Missoula last year. The box and weight rules were

put in place as division compliance tools. I don't see them being used here in the

Northwest, at least at the matches I've attended. Just wondering if it is the same

across the country.

Along a similiar line ...

I was surprised when I shot my first big match last month that they came up and asked for 8 bullets. If you were the unscrupulous type it would be pretty easy to have 8 special ones set aside for the chrono.

At the 10 or so major matches that that I have shot, most would have been pretty easy to cheat the chrono. The people getting caught with minor load are, likely the honest ones who did not leave enough margin for variables. For one reason or another they end up with minor loads without knowing it and get moved to minor PF. But, rules are rules and it is the shooters responsibility to be sure of their PF. I know of at least one case at the Nationals this year where a shooter did not make major at the chrono.

The only time I have seen a box was at the Columbus Cup in El salvador. IPSC requires that Standard, their version of Limited, fit in the IPSC box with a mag inserted.

Edited October 6, 2008 by CenTX

[Nik Habicht]

Gary, Kevin,

Good luck getting into my bag --- you're likely to meet opposition if you try......

Are you entitled to sample my ammo supply? Sure you are --- and you can pull rounds off my belt from any magazine(s) of your choice at the beginning or end of every stage if you wish. Try to get into my bag without asking nicely --- or disregarding the "No" answer --- and I promise I won't be a happy camper......

There are ways to accomplish match administration goals that satisfy both the rulebook and the privacy concerns of competitors at the match --- and I know both of you are smart enough to know that....

[Flexmoney]

Gary, Kevin,

Good luck getting into my bag --- you're likely to meet opposition if you try......

Are you entitled to sample my ammo supply? Sure you are --- and you can pull rounds off my belt from any magazine(s) of your choice at the beginning or end of every stage if you wish. Try to get into my bag without asking nicely --- or disregarding the "No" answer --- and I promise I won't be a happy camper......

There are ways to accomplish match administration goals that satisfy both the rulebook and the privacy concerns of competitors at the match --- and I know both of you are smart enough to know that....

Nik makes a good point.

Don't fondle his bag without his permission.

[Nik Habicht]

Appendix C2 item 29 says "It is recommended that ammunition be collected from the competitors as randomly as possible to insure that the collected ammunition accurately matches the ammunition the competitor is actually using in the competition."

I would read that to say that any ammunition the competitor reasonably has available to them, and random ammo in their bag would fit that criteria, could be collected.

Normally I observe that ammo is removed from a shooting bag, loaded into magazines or other devices and then placed on the belt for use. The path of the ammo in use usually leads back to the shooting bag.

Of course the competitor has the option to file an arbitration to say that reading of the rule was wrong.

Gary, Kevin,

Good luck getting into my bag --- you're likely to meet opposition if you try......

Are you entitled to sample my ammo supply? Sure you are --- and you can pull rounds off my belt from any magazine(s) of your choice at the beginning or end of every stage if you wish. Try to get into my bag without asking nicely --- or disregarding the "No" answer --- and I promise I won't be a happy camper......

There are ways to accomplish match administration goals that satisfy both the rulebook and the privacy concerns of competitors at the match --- and I know both of you are smart enough to know that....

Nik makes a good point.

No he does not. Nobody ever demanded to search anybody's bag. Thats just BS.

Mods actively drifting this thread hard. I give up.

Rich,

sorry to see you give up ---- but I don't believe I pulled the bag search out of thin air, given Kevin's and Gary's comments. In the last year, I've heard the same thing from another RM. When I drive out of state, my locked range bag often contains not just match ammo but also ammo for a carry gun --- assuming that I have reciprocity in the state where I end up. Typically that ammo stays in my bag on the range --- but it's stored in separate boxes from match ammo, won't be used/confused with match ammo, and certainly won't be made available to chrono.....

[Gary Stevens]

Nik I would never fondle your ammo, or probably anything else without asking permission so to speak. What I would say is I am requesting 8 rounds of ammo from your bag. I might even indicate the ammo I want the sample taken from. All within the proper range decorum naturally.

You of course have the right to refuse. However failure to report to the chronograph is a no score situation, and without an ammo sample there will be no results, so the decision is totally on the shooter.

I believe the match administration has the obligation to administer the match within the rules. The shooter has the obligation to abide by the administrations decisions, or take other appropriate measures to show that they are wrong in their interpretations of the applicable rules.

[Flexmoney]

Chrono ammo and Range Bag posts were merged into this existing thread (might be good to read it from the top) - Admin

[Flexmoney]

Ok, guys, let's cool out a little bit. The rule book allows all your ammo to be tested. It doesn't allow any RO, RM, MD, etc., to search or rifle through your bag. ...

Simply put: any RO can request your ammo at any time, and can ask for some from your magazines, your range bag, etc. Most people will not worry about the ammo you may have rolling around in the bottom of your bag--they'll ask for a sample from something that looks like you are going to use it--boxes, baggies, magazines, etc. They won't (or shouldn't) go into your bag themselves. ...

Troy

Kevin & Gary,

I believe many off us are going off past conversations on this topic. As quoted above.

[steel1212]

Let me get this straight. If I was to have my carry ammo in my range bag, and "chronoman" didn't want the ammo from my belt but wanted some from my bag and I pull out a ammo box he can say no let me look through you bag? If he picks up my carry ammo, I'm pretty sure its going to make PF unless I'm shooting open, but I don't like the idea of chronoman being able to go through my bag either.

[Flexmoney]

Let me get this straight. If I was to have my carry ammo in my range bag, and "chronoman" didn't want the ammo from my belt but wanted some from my bag and I pull out a ammo box he can say no let me look through you bag? If he picks up my carry ammo, I'm pretty sure its going to make PF unless I'm shooting open, but I don't like the idea of chronoman being able to go through my bag either.

I am pretty sure quite a few of USPSA customers would feel the same way about having somebody dig through their stuff. And, I am sure we'd get some po'ed customers if chrono man wanted to shoot up somebody's carry gun ammo (at 20 rounds a box - with a premium price tag). For that matter, I had major 9 ammo in my bag this year...while shooting a stock glock in Prod. How many chrono men want to roll those dice?

There are plenty of better ways to collect ammo (off the belt, dropped mag during a cof....)

[Gary Stevens]

Range bag shakedown

Good one Kyle

[Barrettone]

Let me get this straight. If I was to have my carry ammo in my range bag, and "chronoman" didn't want the ammo from my belt but wanted some from my bag and I pull out a ammo box he can say no let me look through you bag? If he picks up my carry ammo, I'm pretty sure its going to make PF unless I'm shooting open, but I don't like the idea of chronoman being able to go through my bag either.

As I said in this thread (2 years ago), if the RO/CRO/RM requests ammo from your bag, it is NOT out of line for them to ask you to open your bag and let them peer into it to point out what they would like to have checked. No range official is going to "rifle through" your bag (hell...I'd just put an ammo box filled with dog$hit in it for them to find...he-he...CHRONO THAT RANGE NAZI!!!). However, if you bring ammo to the range (of the caliber you are shooting in the match), it is subject to being chrono'd. This is one of those things that falls under "A reasonable command from a range official". If this measure was not in place, the chrono rules would have no teeth, and people COULD cheat at will by having their "powder puff rounds" in their bag until the match starts, and then utilizing them (not everybody can be re-chrono'd to check for cheaters...only those "suspected"...so people can fall through the cracks). Nobody is going to go "gestapo on your a$$" and ask for zee papers!!! We just need to keep people in check so the rules are followed and not circumvented by an unscrupulous few. I hope this clarifies it, as emotions tend to rise when people feel that their "private space" is being invaded. However, these tools are necessary to insure the playing field is level for all. After all, if that guy next to you is allowed to shoot underpowered ammo, THEY ARE GAINING AN ADVANTAGE, AND THAT IS NEITHER FAIR NOR EQUITABLE TO ALL INVOLVED. Remember, if you don't like it, you can vote with your wallet and not participate in USPSA matches. If you do not agree, there are ways to get rules changed through the proper channels...like contacting your AD.

[Flexmoney]

This is one of those things that falls under "A reasonable command from a range official".

No it's not. You are now going to DQ them?

That is not a catch all...FTDR.

If this measure was not in place, the chrono rules would have no teeth,

Pull ammo of the belt. Pick up a mag the the shooter used during the cof and use that for chrono.

Plenty of teeth.

If you do not agree, there are ways to get rules changed through the proper channels...like contacting your AD

What change? Lets read the rule? Shred covered it the last go around in this thread, so I will just quote him:

Not in my rulebook:

5.5.5 All ammunition used by a competitor must satisfy all the requirements

of the relevant Division as defined in Appendix D.

Note the "Used" and not "Possessed".

There are a number of other provisions about how the MD can request sample rounds at any time and re-chrono, but nothing about any and all ammo being fair game.

Do we chrono every gun in the shooter's bag if they aren't using it?

Do we measure every magazine in the shooter's bag if they don't use it?

Do we check ammo in the shooters' car? In the vendor tent? Every box at Wal-Mart within driving range of a multi-day match?

etc, etc, etc..

Remember, if you don't like it, you can vote with your wallet and not participate in USPSA matches.

You bet.

As a match official, I would expect that the shooter would not come back...and would tell his friends.

I would also want to be sure that my stages were bullet-proof and perfect. I'd hate to try to go digging through Nik's range bag (for instance), have him refuse...then tell him he is shooting for no score. I am pretty sure I wouldn't want Nik to have a bone to pick. I've seen a lot of majors, haven't seen many that could stand too close scrutiny without getting a stage tossed out.

Let's not get to draconian with our tactics.

If a shooter has ammo on their belt or they drop it on the stage...that looks to meet the rules of "in use".