Single Stack Division Rules Issue

[Tengu]

Well said

[Steve J]

I think the 1911 owes much of its longevity to USPSA. Many of the changes to the basic design have come about as a result of the gun's use in competition. So why not allow guys to push the envelope and make changes as long as they fit into a defined set of rules? The SS division may hold the key to the next new frame material or "better mousetrap" slide modifications.

I have to completely disagree with you here. The 1911's longevity is due to it's own merits in spite of USPSA and changes in design as a result of competition. The 1911 morphed into a 2011 double stack modular framed pistol for competition in Limited and Open. 2011 does not equal 1911.

IMHO the SS Division is needed to get the 1911 back into the sport. There is no need or reason to allow the SS Division to turn into another better mousetrap race.

Obviously, there is some leeway here, but not all models and configurations offered by current 1911 makers can be allowed. Some modifications simply deviate too much.

[Vlad]

I kinda asked this before .. deviate from what? Is there some Iconic 1911 perfection the 1911 Division was developed around?

[SteveZ]

IMHO the SS Division is needed to get the 1911 back into the sport.

already done. L10!

[Tokarev]

I think the 1911 owes much of its longevity to USPSA. Many of the changes to the basic design have come about as a result of the gun's use in competition. So why not allow guys to push the envelope and make changes as long as they fit into a defined set of rules? The SS division may hold the key to the next new frame material or "better mousetrap" slide modifications.

I have to completely disagree with you here. The 1911's longevity is due to it's own merits in spite of USPSA and changes in design as a result of competition. The 1911 morphed into a 2011 double stack modular framed pistol for competition in Limited and Open. 2011 does not equal 1911.

IMHO the SS Division is needed to get the 1911 back into the sport. There is no need or reason to allow the SS Division to turn into another better mousetrap race.

Obviously, there is some leeway here, but not all models and configurations offered by current 1911 makers can be allowed. Some modifications simply deviate too much.

I'm not saying that Para's LDA-series should be allowed but if enough people want to try them again traditional 1911's, why not? And how is adding a light rail to the bottom of the frame or allowing 9x23 to compete in major any different from a fiber optic front sight or an S&A mag well?

The 2011 IS a 1911. Sure, the frame is bigger/different to acccept a double stack magazine. But the design and method of operation remain unchanged. Is a Glock 36 no longer a Glock because it has a sinlge stack magazine? The 2011 uses standard 1911 parts with the exception of the mag, mag release and trigger. Even these different parts are just modified 1911 components.

I'm not saying open the Single Stack rules so that anything goes as long as the pistol still uses a thin magazine. I just think there should be enough room in the rules to allow creativity or "breakthrough" ideas to come forward. The rules should be flexible and "bendable" to allow for changes in holsters, guns and ammunition. We've already got one shooting discipline with rigid rules. It's called IDPA.

[JFD]

It would have been so much easier to simply make L-10 a "SS only" division.. You want to use race gear, it's allowed. You want to use Production gear, it's allowed. You want a stock 1911, you're good to go. Want a highly modified 1911, you're good to go. You want to shoot something other than a 1911, you're good to go. Please note that all of this wonderful freedom of choice is allowed RIGHT NOW in L-10.

The vast majority of USPSA members will never shoot an area match or the nats and will rarely see a downloaded Limited gun in L-10. From MANY posts on this site, it should be obvious that L-10 SS shooters don't give a damn if someone with a downloaded Limited gun shoots L-10. Yet downloaded Limited guns seem to be the reason for this "1911 only" provisional division. That, and some oddball attachment to mandated carry gear.

I really wonder what our BOD is thinking sometimes....

OK, I'll go away now.

[Gary Stevens]

Well it is really pretty simple. It is spelled out in the mission statement of the division. In addition to that I have discussed it to no end on this forum. And in addition to that I have answered numerous private e-mail questions as to the who, what, why, and how.

Perhaps the problem is not on the BOD's end.

Gary

[Carmoney]

I happen to think the provisional Single Stack 1911 division is the best move USPSA has made since I renewed my membership a couple years ago. The idea has been very well received at our local club. I can't wait to participate in the 2006 Single Stack 1911 National Championships (aka the Single Stack Classic), which I understand is nearly sold out.

I have nothing but compliments to the BOD on this subject!

Edited February 11, 2006 by Carmoney

[Tokarev]

Well it is really pretty simple. It is spelled out in the mission statement of the division. In addition to that I have discussed it to no end on this forum. And in addition to that I have answered numerous private e-mail questions as to the who, what, why, and how.

Perhaps the problem is not on the BOD's end.

Gary

Please don't interpret my "suggestions" as my being unhappy with the single stack division. I'm glad to see it and plan on shooting in it pretty much exclusively. Why should my STI 2011 have all the fun?

I hope that we, as competitors, can reach an understanding with regard to the rules and that they will become accepted like the rules for limited and open are by most people.

[Gary Stevens]

No suggestion is unwelcome, but it has to be something that helps move the ball down the field, based on the mission statement. The goal was simply to try to increase membership and to increase manufactuers participation with USPSA. I think you will see 'tweaks" to the provisional rules at the end of this year, and perhaps at the end of next year. I don't anticipate any huge, major, earth shattering adjustments at this time, but simple movements based on what we are learning through out the year. That is why they were deliberately called provisional, so that we could learn what was the best product to present to the membership.

Keep those cards and letters coming

Gary

[JakeMartens]

While I might not totally agree with all the rules (really just the lightrail thing, and no I don't own a 1911 with a light rail nor would I) I got to say that I really appreciate all of Gary's hard work and his conitnues effort in getting this off the ground and explaining the whys and whys nots. I also would like to say that I am glad he has stuck to his guns (literally in this case) and not made any knee jerk re-actions to a bunch of us whiners (yes me included) about what some of these issue.

I think that it is a very smart business decision to bring this in to our sport and keep L10.

Hey the rules could have been the only guns allowed should be to the exact specs of the original JMB spec's, instead they cover almost all the standard upgrades.

Let's realize that no matter how many examples and persuasive agruements we can come up with, it is set for at least this year. So either support it by shooting in it or shoot in another division.

Instead of shooting in SS or L10 this year (which is what I did all last year) I am going to shoot production. Two reasons

1. Right now I have 17 seven round mags and do not wish to buy a bunch of eight rounders

2. With the way my Nowlin is set up and the mags I have I would have to trim all the base pads and I don't want to do it.

Gary, thanks for all your hard work

[jasmap]

I have to agree with Tokarev. How can you argue for one and not the other? Who honestly thinks that adding a light rail is going to give any real advantage? As long as there is a weight limit then what does it hurt? How is a light rail any more of an advantage than a S&A magwell that can help speed up your mag change? Its a 100% valid argument. If the "it's not on the original design" argument is used then why do we allow beavertails, fiber optics, adjustable sights, magwells, different guide rods, etc...? I don't even own a 1911 with a light rail but I have NO problem with them in the SS division.

And how is adding a light rail to the bottom of the frame or allowing 9x23 to compete in major any different from a fiber optic front sight or an S&A mag well?

Tokarev

[Gary Stevens]

9x23 does not compete at Major in Single Stack. As I have said soooooo many times before the problem may be more of perception than reality. If it is perceived by those who we are trying to target that this is just another tricked out race gun division then we may not achieve what we are trying to accomplish. I think I have stated on at least several dozen times that I am not against light rail guns and am looking for a fair way to factor them in, but it won't happen in 2006.

Gary

[Castle]

These arguments for Single Stack restrictions are ridiculous. If you want to restrict the number of people that enter the Single Stack division, then go ahead and place more restrictions on the gun. Does a full length dust cover give you an advantage? Does a tungsten guide rod give you an advantage? YES and NO! I am sure there is some very small measurable advantage you will gain from shot to shot on one target. There is also a very small measurable disadvantage you will gain transitioning from target to target. Open up the restrictions and let more people in if you want it to be successful.

The biggest thing is make it a single stack gun with a magazine capacitiy limit, not length restriction. All guns regardless of caliber should only be able to hold the same number of rounds.

In this day and age if you buy a single stack for home protection, personal carry protection, or military or law enforcement service, you would be stupid not buy a single stack with an integrated light rail. None of the shooting organizations are really practical anyhow, they all are only competitive shooting organizations, so let it go.

[Gary Stevens]

Castle says:

"In this day and age if you buy a single stack for home protection, personal carry protection, or military or law enforcement service, you would be stupid not buy a single stack with an integrated light rail. "

Gee, if Alvin York had only known.

Gary

[dwt]

Why don't we make it real interesting and use copy's of the good sargents gun ,no modifications of any kind and stop all this BS .

I'm in , who's with me ?

Dale

[38superman]

I will throw my .02 cents in.

I personally don't see a reason to restrict light rails, but I'm sure the rules committee put it in there for a reason.

There must be some rationale behind it.

It seems clear that the intent of the BOD was to foster competion with the 1911 in a pure form, or at least as close to it as possible.

We have to start somewhere.

This new division is in its infancy and I'm sure the rules will be tweaked in the future.

Isn't that why it's provisional?

Let's just take a deep breath and see how things unfold.

Tls

Edited February 27, 2006 by tlshores

[diehli]

Good lord....

As Gary has said repeatedly, and then again, and again, and again, this Division is PROVISIONAL, which means that the rules have to go on as they are currently written until (i.e. when, not if, but that's just my opinion) it is an official Division. My guess is that then the rules will be amended to allow light railed guns as long as the light-railed dustcover is the same length as—or, maybe, within a 1/4-inch of—a standard dustcover.

Until then, y'all can keep futilely opining for what should have been.

[Gary Stevens]

Uhhh...What he said.

Gary

[Castle]

If Sgt York would have had a light or the option to mount the light to the gun and shoot with two hands instead of shooting strong hand only and hold a light with the weak hand, I am pretty sure which one he would have chosen.

[Tokarev]

If Sgt York would have had a light or the option to mount the light to the gun and shoot with two hands instead of shooting strong hand only and hold a light with the weak hand, I am pretty sure which one he would have chosen.

Sgt. York shot OPEN CLASS!

[mscott]

Come on now, guys. All this whining is just wrong. I really doubt anyone has the ability to start a new division and please everyone. It's obvious that some things may need changed, but at least the rules seem pretty clear. I'm a new shooter in these games, but it seems that there is a class for me no matter what gun and gear I bring that day. I'd like to say thanks to all the guys that makes this sport run the way it does. I personally can't imagine keeping track of national scoring and the numerous classifications, let alone light rails and triggers.

[ima45dv8]

In this day and age if you buy a single stack for home protection, personal carry protection, or military or law enforcement service, you would be stupid not buy a single stack with an integrated light rail.

Castle,

Welcome to the BE forums. There's a great deal of combined experience and wisdom available for you here, and you probably have a lot of each to offer as well.

The BE Forum is also probably the best-mannered shooting-related site in existence. This is largely because such declarative statements that paint a large group of people as "stupid" because they do not agree with your choice in firearms are generally reserved for in-laws, out-laws and out-houses.

...Mark

[PJONES5]

These arguments for Single Stack restrictions are ridiculous. If you want to restrict the number of people that enter the Single Stack division, then go ahead and place more restrictions on the gun. Does a full length dust cover give you an advantage? Does a tungsten guide rod give you an advantage? YES and NO! I am sure there is some very small measurable advantage you will gain from shot to shot on one target. There is also a very small measurable disadvantage you will gain transitioning from target to target. Open up the restrictions and let more people in if you want it to be successful.

The biggest thing is make it a single stack gun with a magazine capacitiy limit, not length restriction. All guns regardless of caliber should only be able to hold the same number of rounds.

In this day and age if you buy a single stack for home protection, personal carry protection, or military or law enforcement service, you would be stupid not buy a single stack with an integrated light rail. None of the shooting organizations are really practical anyhow, they all are only competitive shooting organizations, so let it go.

I guess me stupid,4 single stacks and not one with a rail.

pat

[Alan Meek]

I guess my seven 1911s with no light rail groups me with PJONES

LOL

Alan