Gary Stevens Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 There is also one issue that someone, such as myself, who is trying to draw new members and grow the sport has to consider, and that is perception. When a new shooter looks around and sees guns vastly different from his/hers such as long heavy dustcover 1911's with light rail cuts in them, they perceive that the equipment is what beat them. The truth is most likely though that it was the other shooters skill that beat them. If you try to control those other factors, such as long heavy dustcover guns, then the new shooter has less to focus on for their problems and will hopefully settle on the real problem, their lack of skill. Things such as these are easy to blow off with a shrug and a snort, but they are real, and all too often encountered. The problem with trying to formulate a rule, or policy is there is no easy answer. For every 50 shooters you please, you tick off 50 more, or so it seems anyway. Maybe that is just one of my perceptions Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 (edited) Gary, I get your worry about new shooters. I too am aware that without a constant influx of new shooters there is no future. However I also worried about going to far in that direction .. Think of it as a "Its for the children! so adults shouldnt own guns!". Also, at least in area gun shops, there about 50/50 guns with rails and those without. I'm guessing that is because they sell a lot of the rail guns. What do you tell the new shooter when he shows up with his rail gun? Edited February 1, 2006 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 What do you tell the new shooter when he shows up with his rail gun? "Welcome!" "Glad you could come out and shoot with us. Looks like your gear will be just right for Lim-10" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 After reading through all the well thought out and supportive posts in this thread I, having only shot one match so far this season, have only one thing to say: Being first loser is the closest I've come to winning a match yet! 2 Matthews, Dale A47843 U Single Stack Major No No 572.6997 95.610% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJONES5 Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 After reading through all the well thought out and supportive posts in this thread I, having only shot one match so far this season, have only one thing to say:Being first loser is the closest I've come to winning a match yet! 2 Matthews, Dale A47843 U Single Stack Major No No 572.6997 95.610% well you are doing better than me 10 Jones Pat A51446 C Single Stack Major N N Super Senior 261.4533 70.48% pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 What do you tell the new shooter when he shows up with his rail gun? "Welcome!" "Glad you could come out and shoot with us. Looks like your gear will be just right for Lim-10" Heheh .. I can say that to any 1911 shooter though. I'm just curious how it is going to come across when his $700 of the shelf gun would be considered "gamey" but people with $2000 hand built custom guns can say they are shooting just another 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 After reading through all the well thought out and supportive posts in this thread I, having only shot one match so far this season, have only one thing to say:Being first loser is the closest I've come to winning a match yet! 2 Matthews, Dale A47843 U Single Stack Major No No 572.6997 95.610% You rock! I hope you beat lots of Open and Limited shooters with your 8-rounders. I see your club also used "U". Is that a club or software thing? Classifications for SSTK are already entered for everyone (at least for me) on the USPSA website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 (edited) Vlad I think that most of it will come from a visual impression. A shooter watching another shooter load and make ready will be hard pressed to observe a Bar-Sto Barrel, checkering, or be aware of the hand fitting of slide and barrel to frame. They will be able to see a long heavy dustcover gun and perhaps draw a wrong conclusion as I outlined previously. As I said before, it is impossible to please everyone, it is useless to even try. However, I am trying to make informed decisions that are good for the organization as a whole and that will be the main focus. Gary Edited February 2, 2006 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Heheh .. I can say that to any 1911 shooter though. I'm just curious how it is going to come across when his $700 of the shelf gun would be considered "gamey" but people with $2000 hand built custom guns can say they are shooting just another 1911. Okay, I've given this about 10 seconds thought and have come up with the perfect answer. Now, I know it won't please everyone, but can we just give it a chance, please? We need the best USPSA salesman to approach the manufacturers of 1911 style pistols with a set of specs to produce the Official USPSA 1911 pistol. We need a great saleman because the manufacture must donate a truck load of these pistols to be distributed to all the clubs. No modifications are allowed and we shoot as identical a platform as possible. Which one has the largest advertising budget? I see your club also used "U". Is that a club or software thing? Classifications for SSTK are already entered for everyone (at least for me) on the USPSA website. They have me classified as well. I think the stats person, bless her heart for all the volunteer work she puts in, entered us as "U". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irishlad Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Just a IMveryHO, coming from other shooting sports, it's not bad being restrictive on equipment...particulary for new shooters. It can make it easier to bring in a "shooter" because the "discussion" of what is needed is short and sweet. Then, you can concentrate on the more important aspects of the sport which really matter. This "rail" fad will pass no doubt as the heavier weight and sharp edges really are not ideal for "practical" guns, on a 1911 anyway. Swat teams and the Marines excluded of course. Unless, you hang a flashlight on it which is the real "purpose" of a railed gun. Function over form in the more "practical" divisions is wise IMO. Now, if you are holding shoots in the dark, then it serves a function and should be allowed. Otherwise, if you allow a rail, why not a long dustcover?, 6" bbl, etc, etc and you are back to where you don't want to be as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ipscbob Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Otherwise, if you allow a rail, why not a long dustcover?, 6" bbl, etc, etc and you are back to where you don't want to be as I understand it. Why Not Indeed Then you have USPSA limited or limited 10. I would be very interested in knowing how many USPSA members have expressed interest in SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Otherwise, if you allow a rail, why not a long dustcover?, 6" bbl, etc, etc and you are back to where you don't want to be as I understand it. Why Not Indeed Then you have USPSA limited or limited 10. I would be very interested in knowing how many USPSA members have expressed interest in SS. Well, I believe Scorch said in another thread that 17 were signed up to shoot Single Stack in the Double Tap Championship. Add me to that and any others that may have signed up after his post. Probably 20 in that Level II match. and I believe the SSC/Nationals are nearly full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Isn't the SSC full every year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 The match had 183 entries last year. They are squadding for 220 this year. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Gary, Thanks for taking charge of the SS Divsion. You have done an outstanding job with it so far. I know my friends are supporting it. And major Kudos to Steve Horseman with the WSSSC. I suspect this was the first major match with single stacks for the division. Steve and crew put on a great match. The stages were great and as many of you know the props at Rio Salado are without peer. The RO were quite good and friendly -- not a d^@@&k head in the bunch. It was totally asesome to see 140+ single stacks in a match. I am looking forward to next year's match. With a little luck I may get another single stack match in this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Thanks for the kind words. I sent you a private e-mail about the match. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 The rules as written now are good for the next three years. Changes, if any, should be minor. In our area, the rail guns are not much of an issue. We stock about 50 1911 style pistols, from Kimber, Springfield, S&W, Para, SIG, and the other makers with quite a few rail guns. Some of the rail guns are getting ready for birthdays! The reason you see so many in our case, is they don’t sell that well. Standard 1911’s outsell rail guns 5:1 or more. Loaded or Target II’s are the outstanding best sellers, and appropriate for the Single Stack division. If the rules change enough at a later date, I’ll shoot an Operator at our club match, pig that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengu Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 I think it's pretty clear that rail guns are outnumbered by traditional 1911s and likely to remain so for the forseeable future. On the other hand, if they can be clearly defined in the rules and offer no competitive edge, why not allow them in single stack? Rails are a far cry from full length dust covers. One of the toughest things I've encountered in recruiting new shooters to our sport is the perception that expensive, specialized equipment is required. And if a new shooter shows up to a match and is told he can't compete in what seems to be the most rational division because of an essentially cosmetic (for competition purposes) difference in his gun, we're likely to lose that new shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 I think it's pretty clear that rail guns are outnumbered by traditional 1911s and likely to remain so for the forseeable future. On the other hand, if they can be clearly defined in the rules and offer no competitive edge, why not allow them in single stack? Rails are a far cry from full length dust covers. One of the toughest things I've encountered in recruiting new shooters to our sport is the perception that expensive, specialized equipment is required. And if a new shooter shows up to a match and is told he can't compete in what seems to be the most rational division because of an essentially cosmetic (for competition purposes) difference in his gun, we're likely to lose that new shooter. If you have a new shooter show up with a rail type 1911, why not explain that the rules for Single Stack Division (Provisional) do not allow that feature but Limited 10 does. If you had a new shooter show up with a box stock 1911 with a Doctor mounted, wouldn't you explain that that feature puts him in Open Division. Or the new shooter with an 8 shot .357, he can shoot in Revolver Division provided he does not fire more than 6 rounds before a reload (US Appendix D10, 16). If we, shooters, do not take the time to make new shooters feel like they belong it our sport then they probably won't stay and that is our fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengu Posted February 4, 2006 Author Share Posted February 4, 2006 If you have a new shooter show up with a rail type 1911, why not explain that the rules for Single Stack Division (Provisional) do not allow that feature but Limited 10 does. If you had a new shooter show up with a box stock 1911 with a Doctor mounted, wouldn't you explain that that feature puts him in Open Division. Or the new shooter with an 8 shot .357, he can shoot in Revolver Division provided he does not fire more than 6 rounds before a reload (US Appendix D10, 16). If we, shooters, do not take the time to make new shooters feel like they belong it our sport then they probably won't stay and that is our fault. Of course it's our obligation to new shooters to explain to them the different divisions and help them get set in the one that's appropriate for their equipment. And a lot of people are still going to enjoy our sport even if they don't have the most competitive equipment for the division they are in (hell, I've had fun a couple of times shooting open with my Mag-na-ported revolver!). But I'm talking about the frustration of new shooters who get stuck with their off-the-shelf rail 1911 into a group of guys with cutting-edge custom SVs and STIs, and might feel from their first match that they need to buy a new pistol to be competitive. On the other hand, an excuse to buy a new firearm isn't always a bad thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Gary...just dropping in to say hello. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 We have over 2,000 USPSA members living in states that do not permit citizens to own magazines that accept more than ten rounds. We have even more "prospective members in those states, and in Canada. I think our approach to a newer shooter needs to be, "Yes, we have a division for that 1911!" And then we should help them figure out the correct division. Basically, shoot SS if the gun & gear meet the rules for that division, and shoot L-10 if they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Basically, shoot SS if the gun & gear meet the rules for that division, and shoot L-10 if they don't. That's way too simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Basically, shoot SS if the gun & gear meet the rules for that division, and shoot L-10 if they don't. That's way too simple. Evidently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokarev Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 I think the 1911 owes much of its longevity to USPSA. Many of the changes to the basic design have come about as a result of the gun's use in competition. So why not allow guys to push the envelope and make changes as long as they fit into a defined set of rules? The SS division may hold the key to the next new frame material or "better mousetrap" slide modifications. Fiber optics are fine but a light rail isn't? An S&A mag well is legal but the same amount of material added to the dust cover makes the gun illegal? I'm happy to see the SS division and hope it becomes a permanent part of USPSA. I also hope we can iron out the rules to allow more people to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now