Single Stack Division Rules Issue

[Castle]

I am not discussing what you have purchased in the past. I own two single stacks without integrated light rails myself, that is because integrated light rails are a relatively new item. But the next pistol I am going to buy for my wife will have a light rail, so I can put a rail mounted light on it. So she can see at night and maintain both hands on the weapon. This is the same reason why the military's new service pistol will come with a light rail. It is also the same reason most SWAT elements have pistols with light rails. And if they do not, when it is time for their pistols life cycle replacement, they will replace it with a pistol with a light rail.

Now back to what I originally said, give me a good reason not to buy a pistol with an integrated light rail for home protection, carry, military or law enforcement. The only conceivable excuse is because of the size of the pistol with the light mounted for personal carry.

If you are trying to get more people to into the sport, do not exclude them because they already own a SS 1911 with rail, or if this happens to be their service pistol.

[ima45dv8]

The reason I don't want one with a light rail is I'm not fond of the idea of using a pistol as my flashlight. That's my personal decision and other's opinions may vary (and probably do). I'm very comfortable with several other techniques that utilize lights that are not weapon-mounted.

To each his own...

[Steve J]

Now back to what I originally said, give me a good reason not to buy a pistol with an integrated light rail for home protection, carry, military or law enforcement. The only conceivable excuse is because of the size of the pistol with the light mounted for personal carry.

If you are trying to get more people to into the sport, do not exclude them because they already own a SS 1911 with rail, or if this happens to be their service pistol.

This is not the forum to discuss it, but I can think of many reasons why a hand held tactical flashlight is superior to a gun mounted light and several reasons why a gun mounted light is impractical. I certainly would not want one on a carry gun. To be fair, a lot of people do like to have lights mounted on the guns they keep on their night stand, but I don't know anyone who competes with the gun he keeps on his nightstand.

As a 1911 afficionado, I don't like the way light rail mounts look, but for some (not all) of the reasons mentioned in this thread I could accept them as long as they are cut into a frame that is very close to the dimensions of the original.

[MBaneACP]

Small data point here...depends on what part of the country you're in as to rail/railless sales. I suspect that the rail fad won't fade, because it has very powerful, very heavily financed "drivers" — the light manufacturers, for instance, and the folks looking at military/LEO contracts. Not to mention the gun mags.

My experience traveling around has been that new shooters assume a rail is a big plus and buy accordingly, because that's what they've been reading and seeing for the last five years or so. Based on that, I'd say Gary's idea of a weight limit/length limit might be well-suited for the newer 1911 shooter he's looking to attract.

We're gonna film the Single Stack Classic this year and see what kind of response we get. I'm gonna shoot a new Sig obviously railless gun tuned by Bruce Gray.

Michael B

[Castle]

Now back to what I originally said, give me a good reason not to buy a pistol with an integrated light rail for home protection, carry, military or law enforcement. The only conceivable excuse is because of the size of the pistol with the light mounted for personal carry.

If you are trying to get more people to into the sport, do not exclude them because they already own a SS 1911 with rail, or if this happens to be their service pistol.

This is not the forum to discuss it, but I can think of many reasons why a hand held tactical flashlight is superior to a gun mounted light and several reasons why a gun mounted light is impractical. I certainly would not want one on a carry gun. To be fair, a lot of people do like to have lights mounted on the guns they keep on their night stand, but I don't know anyone who competes with the gun he keeps on his nightstand.

As a 1911 afficionado, I don't like the way light rail mounts look, but for some (not all) of the reasons mentioned in this thread I could accept them as long as they are cut into a frame that is very close to the dimensions of the original.

There is nothing wrong with hand held lights. But when I decide to shoot, I want both hands on the pistol.

Here is a test for you, seeing how this is a learning forum.

Go shoot the a modified version of the "Falling Plate" stage of the Bianchi Cup. The modification is after the 3rd plate conduct a mandatory magazine change. All time standards remain the same. While you are doing this hold your hand held tactical flashlight in manner you chose, just as if it were night. Let me know how you score.

Again, back to the original comment. If we want more people in the SS class, then don't exclude the guys that only own or only have access to a 1911 with a light rail. I compete solely with SS 1911s whether in Limited or Lim10 so it is not effecting me personally. Thankfully I am not one those guys that only owns a SS with a light rail, or I guess I would not be able to compete at the Single Stack Classic this year.

[Flexmoney]

First, it looks like the group has covered the bases on it not being acceptable to call things "stupid" around here.

Next, is their a substantial group that is being left out by excluding the lights railed guns? Most everybody that is stupid crazy old nostalgic traditional...ahhh heck ....most already have a 1911 without a rail, right?

Honestly, to meet some of the stated goals of the provisional division, I thought including rail guns would be a good idea. But, then again, that would exclude some of the other stated goals of the provisional division.

Finally, I've wrapped my head around the 1911 provisional division by thinking of it more along the lines of Cowboy Action. Not that I like it any better, but it seems to help by thinking of it that way.

(Gary, say the word and I'll close this thread down for you. I think the original questions have been answered long ago. Your call.)

[Steve J]

Here is a test for you, seeing how this is a learning forum.

Go shoot the a modified version of the "Falling Plate" stage of the Bianchi Cup. The modification is after the 3rd plate conduct a mandatory magazine change. All time standards remain the same. While you are doing this hold your hand held tactical flashlight in manner you chose, just as if it were night. Let me know how you score.

No need for the plate rack. We have the benefit of a half dozen or more IDPA style night pistol matches during the winter months. Both my club and another local club conduct them. Holding a Surefire with the tactical ring in the traditional manner between the third and forth finger and activating it with the palm of your hand, reloads are a piece of cake even in the dark. It's all about repetition and muscle memory. Light goes dark. Drop empty mag while your weak hand sweeps your jacket back. Grasp your magazine with your thumb, index finger and middle finger. Reload. Reestablish your grip. Light on. Shoot. After you do it a couple of times, you don't even notice the flashlight in your hand. Mounting a light safely and manipulating it once it's on your gun has its own challenges, but I won't get into that. I'll just stop now and apologize to everyone else for the thread drift.

Edited February 28, 2006 by Steve J

[Bdavis]

As someone who has been involved in the Single Stack Classic for 11 of the 12 years and who has handled registration and Stats for those years I can tell you that this year we have gained many shooters that we have not seen in the past, many with very low USPSA numbers. About 20% of the shooters for this years match were not USPSA members, but are now. We also have not seen some of our "regular" shooters, and I suspect that is due to the USPSA being involved. So, Gary, it is doing waht you intended. Thanks for your work.

The overwhelming response from the past 12 years has been that the SSC is a GREAT match, and in all that time we have never had an arbitration. We have sought over those years to make it a shooting match, not an equipment race. The unfortunate part of these discussions is that they overlook that all of the USPSA divisions have evolved into something their creator did not envision (or maybe intend, how else do you explain the "newer" divisions).

The other simple fact is that this match has been successful for 12 years without be affiliated with the USPSA. Staffed by some of the best people you will meet. We would (will) have this match every year with or without the USPSA. We are recruiting the ROs, taking care of registration, Stats, and everything else. Think of it as NASCAR versus IRL versis F1. This is where everyone has the "same" equipment and the shooter makes the difference. I understand the analogy breaks down because there will some shooting minor, some in .40 and others in .45. Each has an advantage as well as disadvantage. I believe if we could have figured a way out, we would have said .45 only with 8 round mags. There were most likley too many complaints because other owned something that would not be "legal."

As for me, I can't decide whether to shoot my Springfield Trophy in .45 or my custom Heinie Colt in 9x23. Whatever, it will be the most enjoyable match I shoot this year, as well as work.

Bill

[Gary Stevens]

Thanks Flex, but no thanks. I believe in an open, but polite, exchange of ideas. I represent a group of people in this sport, and need to know what they think, good or bad. This is the only way we can learn and progress.

I will say this, I guess it is a forum factor. New people come on the forum and want to get involved. That is great. But there are many many threads on more subjects than you can probably count on this great forum. Before one ventures into a subject perhaps a search for the areas you have issues with would serve everyone's best interest.

If such a search had been made, it would have been noted that I have publicly stated over and over that I am trying to work through a way to include light rail guns, without going outside of the founding ideas that this was built around. I feel comfortable that that will happen, but not before next year. Hopefully that will allow us to make informed decisions on rule adjustments based on solid data that we will gather this season.

Bill, I am very happy with the increase in numbers and the low USPSA numbers showing up at a match again. This is music to my ears, but it is still early in the process. There is much work to do before we can feel comfortable with the end product.

Gary

Edited March 3, 2006 by Gary Stevens