Rules Discussion: Holstered handgun while shooting Rimfire Pistol (8.1.8)

[bigdawgbeav]

I'm going to try and keep the background brief, but I would love to hear the opinions on what follows...

This weekend I was the RM for the East Coast Steel Challenge Championship. Prior to the start of one of the sessions, another local match RM talked to me about shooters wearing a holstered pistol (revo, co, open, ltd, etc) and shooting a 2nd pistol (rfpo, rfpi) and that it's verboten.  I expressed that I had not heard of this in the rules and it would be something rare as most shooters don't typically wear a holstered handgun all day.  He said he had a letter from NROI saying this "double pistol" was not allowed. My response was I have never heard about this and would look at the rules.

 

Fast forward a couple of hours and one of my ROs came to me with this EXACT scenario.  Talk about coincidence... I told him to just let it go and I'll look into it.  So I started digging.  

 

The only mention of this is Rule 8.1.8:

Competitors entered in a long gun and a handgun division may wear a holstered handgun while competing with the long gun. The handgun may not be loaded or drawn while competing with a long gun. A dropped handgun while competing with a long gun will be a disqualification per 10.3.3

 

OK, we have a starting point.  But this only mentions long guns.  The idea of a "double pistol" is not mentioned in the rules anywhere.  That being said, I see this as if it is not explicitly prohibited in the rules, then by default it is allowed.  However, that previously mentioned RO reached out to DNROI for clarification:

 

From: Troy <rules@uspsa.org>
To: [redacted]
Date: Sunday, 17 September 2023 9:02 PM EDT
Subject: Re: Clarification on SCSA rule 8.1.8
 

8.1.8 only specifies having a holstered handgun while shooting a long gun, so it's not legal to have a holstered handgun while shooting another handgun.  The rules are silent on a specific penalty for this, but the best thing to do would be to inform the competitor that it's not allowed prior to them receiving the Make Ready command, and having them remedy the situation by removing and bagging the holstered handgun under RO supervision or at a safe area.

 

Regards,

 

Troy

 

—

Troy McManus

Director, National Range Officers Institute

https://nroi.org

https://uspsa.org/

https://steelchallenge.com/

"I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery".  Thomas Jefferson

Audemus jura nostra defendere

So, according to DNROI, this double pistol is illegal as the rule only mentions a long gun.  My contention is since the rule does not mention a 2nd pistol, how can it be illegal.  

 

I'm really curious to everyone's thoughts on this.  Is it worth even having a potential argument with a competitor when you ask them to bag up their holstered handgun?  I can see having this same, lengthy, discussion at a stage with someone that asks the same questions I'm asking.  Am I to carry the DNROI opinion around to show the shooter?  I can just see it now:

RO: When I tell you to "Make Ready" please unholster and bag your handgun before readying your rimfire pistol

Shooter: What? Why?

RO: It's not allowed.  Rule 8.1.8 only mentions shooting a long gun with a holstered handgun, therefore you can't shoot a 2nd pistol.

Shooter: But it doesn't mention a 2nd pistol specifically right?

RO: Correct

Shooter: Then show me the rule that specifically mentions a holstered handgun and a rimfire pistol

RO: I have this email from the DNROI that says it's illegal

Shooter: Where is the specific rule?

RO: Rule 8.1.8

Shooter: Which doesn't mention a 2nd pistol...

(and the back and forth continues)

 

OK, have at it.  I'm open to hearing what everyone thinks.  

 

ETA: Completely understand that 10.3.3 would still apply should the holstered gun fall out during the course of fire with the rimfire pistol.  BTW: that DID NOT happen in this scenario.  There was no dropped gun and no DQ, just the question of legality of holstered centerfire and shooting rimfire pistol

Edited September 18, 2023 by bigdawgbeav

[GKB]

Not being a RO (yet) my thought....

 

Is it a safety issue?

Is it a competitive advantage issue?

 

If no to both, the rules should be updated to explicitly allow it.

Edited September 18, 2023 by GKB

[Matt1911]

Not in the rule book. Not going to enforce. 
If the 2nd pistol remains in the holster while the rimfire is being shot, I see nothing wrong. 

[zzt]

I asked George Jones about this and was told no.  Since the rule specifically mentioned long guns and not pistols, I could infer that pistols were not permitted.  I suggested the wording be changed to eliminate the confusion.

 

After thinking about it, I can see the reasoning.   Consistency.   Only a shooter shooting RFPx and a centerfire pistol could manage this. A 2-gun shooter shooting two centerfire pistols could not, because the pistol must be drawn from a holster that is already occupied.

 

 

[blackss06]

This is silly AF. Having shot over a dozen majors in 2 years (including WSSC) and over 100 SCSA matches, never seen it done like this and the only person that should be weighing in is @ZackJones . There is 0 safety risk and the only purpose this would server is adding even more time to each shooter as they bag/unbag their rimfire AND centerfire gun. 

[Gregg K]

No rule that says you can't, just in inference that carries no penalty. Pretty hard to enforce an inference with no penalty.

They should just write this into the rules to make it ok in writing but I doubt that will happen. I tried to get them to re-write 8.15 and 8.17 to align with each other but couldn't make any headway. 8.1.7 says you can bring a flagged rifle to the box muzzle up or down but 8.1.5 says it must be in a bag or muzzle up to leave. If you can come to the box muzzle up or down you should be able to leave muzzle up or down. I'm afraid this will just be another one of those inconsistencies in the rules.

 

Personally I think it's smarter to just bag the extra gun since it's just a liability. Just think about Outer Limits, if you trip or bounce the extra gun out you're DQ'ed and all for nothing when you could have just bagged the extra gun and probably moved better without the extra gear.

[Joe4d]

Enforce the rules as written until they are changed. Put Troys email print outs in the porta john where they are actually useful.

[zzt]

I disagree.  NROI has clarified 8.1.8 pertains ONLY to a shooter registered in a pistol and a long gun Division.  It should be enforced.  There doesn't have to be a penalty specified.  It is not needed, because the RO CANNOT start the shooter until they are in compliance with the rule.

[Hoops]

A private email from Troy to a member should not constitute a rule clarification.  Especially one that is subject to debate and not made “official”.

 

My guess is 99% of match RO’s, me included, would have never given this the slightest thought.  I’ve run countless people who shoot a low ready gun first (or second) with their centerfire gun holstered.  @Gregg K had it right.  Anyone with a holstered gun on Outer Limits, even with a long gun, runs the risk of a dropped gun and DQ.  It’s a personal decision.  
 

Instead of a private email to an individual, Troy should issue a formal “bulletin” to the membership if he believes it is important enough.  Private emails cause far too many unnecessary disagreements and hard feelings….. and match delays.  Until then, the vast majority or RO’s who haven’t read this post most likely will continue as usual.

[bigdawgbeav]

6 hours ago, Hoops said:

A private email from Troy to a member should not constitute a rule clarification.  Especially one that is subject to debate and not made “official”.

 

My guess is 99% of match RO’s, me included, would have never given this the slightest thought.  I’ve run countless people who shoot a low ready gun first (or second) with their centerfire gun holstered.  @Gregg K had it right.  Anyone with a holstered gun on Outer Limits, even with a long gun, runs the risk of a dropped gun and DQ.  It’s a personal decision.  
 

Instead of a private email to an individual, Troy should issue a formal “bulletin” to the membership if he believes it is important enough.  Private emails cause far too many unnecessary disagreements and hard feelings….. and match delays.  Until then, the vast majority or RO’s who haven’t read this post most likely will continue as usual.

He actually addressed it in a recent NROI Podcast (not sure how many people listen to it).  But it still didn't make sense to me.  To add insult to injury the opening disclaimer to the podcast states "rules discussions do not constitute an official ruling" and "the only official rulings are published..." 

 

Yes: 8.1.8 is published but again, not mentioning a 2nd handgun.  IANAL and I don't write legalese but my opinion is that just because a long gun is mentioned that doesn't automatically make a rimfire pistol verboten.  If they want to ban this 2 handgun behavior then add it to the rule book.  Again, I know this entire situation is somewhat rare in Steel Challenge.

Edited September 19, 2023 by bigdawgbeav

[sc68cal]

Quote

Competitors entered in a long gun and a handgun division may wear a

holstered handgun while competing with the long gun.

 

This rule implies that this is the only acceptable time under which a competitor can have a holstered handgun while competing with another gun. If a competitor is shooting a handgun while also having a handgun holstered that they are not going to use, this to me indicates that they have not assumed the correct start position under 8.2.4 and must be instructed to assume the correct starting position, which includes only having one handgun.

 

Basically, summarizing what @zzt already stated.

Edited September 19, 2023 by sc68cal

[Hoops]

On 9/19/2023 at 1:08 PM, sc68cal said:

 

This rule implies that this is the only acceptable time under which a competitor can have a holstered handgun while competing with another gun. If a competitor is shooting a handgun while also having a handgun holstered that they are not going to use, this to me indicates that they have not assumed the correct start position under 8.2.4 and must be instructed to assume the correct starting position, which includes only having one handgun.

 

Basically, summarizing what @zzt already stated.

@sc68cal did you consider that handgun in question would be low ready rimfire gun that was unbagged at the make ready command while the centerfire gun was holstered?  At the end of the stage, the rimfire gun would be bagged and at some later date the shooter would then proceed to shoot the centerfire gun.

 

So I suppose the logical question would be what is the difference between a low ready carbine and a low ready pistol with a gun holstered?  It just seems illogical to me that there is some safety issue between a low ready carbine vs low ready pistol.  

 

Also, the problem with any rule that "implies" something would be subject to all sorts or interpretations.  We have numerous CO shooters that also shoot rimfire and never have we had an issue or ever had anyone ever question this if the rimfire happened to be a pistol.  

 

USPSA rule bulletin via broadcast email to members would be the simplest and quickest method should there ever be any situation where safety is an issue.....and I assume that this is the basis.

 

By the way.....this not meant to be contraian or to besmirch anyone who had a different opinion.  Just reasonable debate because who knows, there may be in the future another issue that comes up that could have real safety issues and for us RO's on the ground running stages every week, I would hope USPSA.org would respond swiftly with bulletins and fully notify the membership.  

[Joe4d]

just another example of dysfunction when it it comes to USPSA people trying to manage  Steel Challenge and trying to shoehorn it into USPSA rules whether they make sense or not.
USPSA rules does have  5.1.9 and 10.5.7 prohibiting using or wearing more than one firearm..
Steel challenge does not.   Rule book is a a book of cants,,, not a book of cans...  Rule book doesnt say I can scratch my ass at make ready... but ?

 

[Runswithwood1]

But i thought rimfire handguns started from low ready or something? I'm not really a steel challenge guy but I'm genuinely curious

[Hoops]

Rimfire pistol low ready.  Rimfire carbine and PCC low ready.  All centerfire pistols holstered.  SCSA

[Texaspaul]

So, if I have a CO pistol on my side - I must remove my centerfire from the holster and bag it before I can shoot the rimfire pistol?  I can shoot a rifle and not have to remove the holstered gun. This only applies to the pistol and not a rifle. Does this make sense?  

[zzt]

12 hours ago, Texaspaul said:

So, if I have a CO pistol on my side - I must remove my centerfire from the holster and bag it before I can shoot the rimfire pistol?  I can shoot a rifle and not have to remove the holstered gun. This only applies to the pistol and not a rifle. Does this make sense?  

 

No, but it's the rule.

[Hoops]

I was reading the USPSA rules and ran across a section on the subject of whenever NROI makes an interpretation that required clarity, there is a formal procedure that is followed.  
 

I could not find similar language in SCSA rules.  I do see in Both USPSA and SCSA a rules change log section.

 

Does anyone know if NROI relative to SCSA follows the language in USPSA for rules interpretations?

 

at yesterday’s match I brought this up to several people…RO’s and (1) they had no clue what I was talking about, and (2) they saw no technical difference between a low ready long gun vs a low ready pistol.  

 

 

[zzt]

@Hoops the only reason I delved into this was a semi-official (who helps run the matches) called out to the shooter and told him to stop.  He was wearing his CO gun in a holster and preparing to shoot a long gun.  I told the man he was incorrect.  He argued and became incensed.  I told him to read 8.1.8.  I then went up to the shooter and told him he was perfectly legal, and he did not have to case the CO gun.   He chose to do so anyway, just to calm things down.

 

That's when I asked George Jones about the issue.  I mentioned his response in an earlier post.

[warpspeed]

Had this exact situation at yesterday's match. I asked the shooter which one he was shooting to clarify for scoring.  Nothing else.  

 

Personally, I don't think competitors should be allowed to walk around with holstered pistols when not under control of a RO but that's just me.  If they made that a rule, I would not object. But it isn't so all good, just don't drop it.

 

Troy should know how the rules work and not be offering his opinion.  Another reason he should not have the job.

 

 

 

 

[cautery]

IF we are going to enforce proscriptive emails as the means of governing this sport, it would be 1) a HUGE surprise to me, and 2) a MASSIVE shift in the philosophy of USPSA rule-making that I was taught by folks who have 2 decades more than MY 17+ years.

Yes, I "get" that this is Steel Challenge....  It's still utterly inconsistent.  Having inconsistent policies/philosophies between the two sports is confusing and potentially UNSAFE.  IF SCSA is going to be under the USPSA umbrella, it needs to follow the same policies and philosophies as closely as possible for consistency, sanity, and safety.

I'm sorry, but if there is NOT a rule that specifically prohibits this situation, then it should be permissible.

You cannot go around making up rules willy-nilly.  NO ONE in this organization has that power. ANYONE exercising power in this organization like this is wrong.

It is a violation of everything I was taught...  It is a violation of the very spirit of this sport.

Edited September 24, 2023 by cautery

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

@Hoops the only reason I delved into this was a semi-official (who helps run the matches) called out to the shooter and told him to stop.  He was wearing his CO gun in a holster and preparing to shoot a long gun.  I told the man he was incorrect.  He argued and became incensed.  I told him to read 8.1.8.  I then went up to the shooter and told him he was perfectly legal, and he did not have to case the CO gun.   He chose to do so anyway, just to calm things down.

 

That's when I asked George Jones about the issue.  I mentioned his response in an earlier post.

@zzt Hey, I get it.  As volunteer Level 1 RO’s we all try our best to follow all the commands correctly and be safe….and enjoy the match.  So I do pay attention to Enos posts that include rule discussions.  
 

We have several combination CO and RFPO shooters so this discussion caught my attention.  Fortunately we didn’t have that combination on our squad yesterday.  
 

Honestly, I’m not sure which way it should be at this point.  I wonder if anyone who knows Troy could revisit this with him?  No one wants confrontation with a shooter at any match….kinda ruins a nice day.
 

 

 

[Reinholt]

I shoot this combination quite often.  Yes, recently I have been bagging my center fire.  Following to see if more info arises.  

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, Reinholt said:

I shoot this combination quite often.  Yes, recently I have been bagging my center fire.  Following to see if more info arises.  

If you were not on Brian Enos Forum reading this topic, would you have made this change recently?  In other words, would you have even known about this discussion and continued on as you always had?

 

 

[blackss06]

Confirmed with Zack that this is indeed now the “rule” and asked him to send something out to at least the certified ROs stating as such since, you know, this is never how SCSA matches up were run. 
 

Stupid as hell. Can’t wait to lose shooters and/or time every flight because people have to deal with either bagging and unbagging at the stage or running off to a safe table to do it instead of painting and reloading. Seems like Troy was talking out of his ass one day and because he’s DNROI this just became the new “rule”… that’s not published as a rule.