Rules Discussion: Holstered handgun while shooting Rimfire Pistol (8.1.8)

[ZackJones]

I've reached out to Troy to ask for an official DNROI ruling or to add this to the agenda for the rules audit for this year. I'll let you all know what I find out. 

 

Speaking from personal experience I think this is a good thing and here's why. At the Area 6 SCSA match I was shooting RFPO Saturday morning. On Outer Limits I tripped and fell while moving between boxes (No, it wasn't captured on video. I wish i had been though.) I was fortunate enough to not drop my gun but being a right handed competitor I can almost guarantee any handgun that had been holstered would have fallen out during the fall. I was told I hit and bounced a time or two during the process. 

 

Even though it's permitted with rimfire or PCC I always bag my handgun. One primary reason for doing that is being either MD/RM or stats officer I never now when I'm going to be called away from a stage to handle something and the last thing I need is to have to stop and find an RO to retrieve my dropped handgun should it fall out while responding to a call. 

 

[Hoops]

9 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

I've reached out to Troy to ask for an official DNROI ruling or to add this to the agenda for the rules audit for this year. I'll let you all know what I find out. 

 

Speaking from personal experience I think this is a good thing and here's why. At the Area 6 SCSA match I was shooting RFPO Saturday morning. On Outer Limits I tripped and fell while moving between boxes (No, it wasn't captured on video. I wish i had been though.) I was fortunate enough to not drop my gun but being a right handed competitor I can almost guarantee any handgun that had been holstered would have fallen out during the fall. I was told I hit and bounced a time or two during the process. 

 

Even though it's permitted with rimfire or PCC I always bag my handgun. One primary reason for doing that is being either MD/RM or stats officer I never now when I'm going to be called away from a stage to handle something and the last thing I need is to have to stop and find an RO to retrieve my dropped handgun should it fall out while responding to a call. 

 

Thanks Zack.

 

Totally agree with risk on Outer Limits.  But that can happen with a long gun also.  Shooter beware.

 

The issue, as I understand it, is what is the difference between a RFRO/PCC (okay) and and a Rimfire pistol (not okay) with a holstered center fire gun.

 

good luck,

 

Hoops

[Hoops]

For the record, I bag or cart everything.  I’m too old to be lugging around a holstered gun.

 

some folks do holster their gun.

 

so for me it’s wanting to get things right within the rules when I RO matches every week (when not on injured reserve list).  If I’m doing my job right all I do is issue commands and score and not interfere with the shooter.  I do yell for painters

[blackss06]

39 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

Speaking from personal experience I think this is a good thing and here's why. At the Area 6 SCSA match I was shooting RFPO Saturday morning. On Outer Limits I tripped and fell while moving between boxes (No, it wasn't captured on video. I wish i had been though.) I was fortunate enough to not drop my gun but being a right handed competitor I can almost guarantee any handgun that had been holstered would have fallen out during the fall. I was told I hit and bounced a time or two during the process. 

 

Me and everyone I shoot with bag our holstered pistols for OL because of this. I have seen far more people DQ from flagging themselves bagging and unbagging than I have from dropped holstered handguns on every stage to include OL though so other than slowing down matches, this still seems like a pointless rule to me. 

[GKB]

Was squad RO for a L1 match this weekend with a shooter doing RFPO and CO and he was bagging both.

 

This issue didn't even occur to me, in spite of following this thread, until he came up with his CO gun (shooting it 2nd) and unbagged it and I was like "Oh, yeah...."

[Reinholt]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:35 AM, Hoops said:

If you were not on Brian Enos Forum reading this topic, would you have made this change recently?  In other words, would you have even known about this discussion and continued on as you always had?

 

 

I changed before even knowing about the rule.  Main reason was I was shooting Open, didn't want paint overspray and potential of dropping the gun.  I was leaving my CO and SS in the holster before, just like the majority of guys at the ranges I shoot.  I believe I will be bagging all the time regardless of second gun, rifle or pistol.    

[Hoops]

57 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

I changed before even knowing about the rule.  Main reason was I was shooting Open, didn't want paint overspray and potential of dropping the gun.  I was leaving my CO and SS in the holster before, just like the majority of guys at the ranges I shoot.  I believe I will be bagging all the time regardless of second gun, rifle or pistol.    

Before this I bagged my Open too.  Hanging on a peg or one without a peg was way too risky for me.  In a CO holster….not so much.

 

I think we all agree about the risk factor and have been acting accordingly before this came up.  

What  got us going was the reason why a low ready pistol was not okay and a low ready long gun is okay.

 

I’m certain that Zack Jones is going to get this cleaned up and sooner the better for RO’s and shooter’s.

thanks for replying 

[zzt]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

I’m certain that Zack Jones is going to get this cleaned up and sooner the better for RO’s and shooter’s.

 

That is all that is required.  An explicit rule, rather than one where you have to 'infer'.

 

That will silence those that say, "show me the rule that says you can't".

 

FWIW, I RO SCSA matches.  Almost everyone bags their gun after a stage.  The only ones who don't are wearing light, plastic guns.

[Joe4d]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:01 AM, blackss06 said:

Confirmed with Zack that this is indeed now the “rule” and asked him to send something out to at least the certified ROs stating as such since, you know, this is never how SCSA matches up were run. 
 

Stupid as hell. Can’t wait to lose shooters and/or time every flight because people have to deal with either bagging and unbagging at the stage or running off to a safe table to do it instead of painting and reloading. Seems like Troy was talking out of his ass one day and because he’s DNROI this just became the new “rule”… that’s not published as a rule. 

that and yet another example of why USPSA has no business running steel challenge..
Guy probably has no idea there are handgun divisions that start low ready... FOr that matter who ever wrote that carbine rule, and the daisy chain of approvers probably didnt either.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Joe4d

[bigdawgbeav]

On 10/2/2023 at 12:59 PM, ZackJones said:

Speaking from personal experience I think this is a good thing and here's why. At the Area 6 SCSA match I was shooting RFPO Saturday morning. On Outer Limits I tripped and fell while moving between boxes (No, it wasn't captured on video. I wish i had been though.) I was fortunate enough to not drop my gun but being a right handed competitor I can almost guarantee any handgun that had been holstered would have fallen out during the fall. I was told I hit and bounced a time or two during the process. 

 

Even though it's permitted with rimfire or PCC I always bag my handgun. One primary reason for doing that is being either MD/RM or stats officer I never now when I'm going to be called away from a stage to handle something and the last thing I need is to have to stop and find an RO to retrieve my dropped handgun should it fall out while responding to a call. 

 

A holstered handgun could fall out any time, doesn't matter if you are shooting a rimfire pistol, rimfire rifle or a PCC.

 

I completely agree that there is no real reason to be walking around holstered at a SCSA match, but some people do it.  The same rules apply if the gun falls out of the holster during the course of fire.  

 

I honestly don't see the difference having a holstered centerfire gun and shooting ANY other gun from the low-ready.  But if the "rules committee" chooses to prohibit RFPs and a holstered centerfire then it needs to be spelled out in the rules so there is no need to interpret the meaning.  

[Hoops]

@ZackJones any discussion or movement on this?  Just curious 

 

Thanks

[ZackJones]

On 10/9/2023 at 5:44 PM, Hoops said:

@ZackJones any discussion or movement on this?  Just curious 

 

Thanks

There was a bit of back and forth between the NROI staff and myself about it prior to the last handgun nationals. They all worked the match so we haven't talked in a little while but it's on the radar. I see 4 possible solutions:

 

1 - No holstered guns for any division for any stage. 

2 - No holstered handguns while shooting other handgun (would have to add this to the rules)

3 - Holstered handguns permitted for any division for all stages except OL. 

4 - Holstered handgun permitted for any division for all stages.

 

Ultimately the rules committee will meet and we'll pick a path forward which will be presented to the BoD for final approval. After a couple of weeks of healing up from my fall I'm leaning towards #3 personally. We remain stationary on 6 of the 8 stages. On Showdown we don't move on the clock so I can see permitting it on all stages except OL.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

[GKB]

Thought:

 

Consistency.

 

If you can't have a holstered pistol when shooting on 1 stage, don't have it on any.  Easier to remember and manage for both the shooters and the RO.  Also more likely the shooter will remember to bring a bag for the pistol.

 

Else permit it when shooting anything.

[Joe4d]

5. If it aint in the rule book it isnt a rule,,, 

Far as new rule,, I say option 1, although the verbiage needs fixed..  I mean its what most people are doing anyway and is simplest option... One gun at a time, 

[zzt]

I also like the intent of #1.  Consistent, and absolutely no way to 'interpret' the rule incorrectly when worded properly.

 

 

 

[Gregg K]

I'm in favor of 1 or 4, all or nothing. Easy to apply. Number 4 puts the burden on the shooter to be responsible.

For consistency with USPSA rules, number one would be best. I would be good with either #1 or #4 but like I said I want it all or nothing.

[Hoops]

#1 or #4.  
 

 

[blackss06]

On 10/12/2023 at 7:39 PM, ZackJones said:

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 
Definitely 4. There are already provisions for what happens if it falls out after the “make ready” and we’ve all accepted the consequences for years and been perfectly fine doing it. 
 

Most of us will continue to bag our holstered guns for OL but don’t think it should be mandatory. Accept the risk or don’t. We’re all adults. 
 

Anything else is going to add time and headaches to being an RO for no reason other than to make some overly-babysitting rules. 

[bigdawgbeav]

I'm in favor of #4.  While a minority, some folks prefer to walk around holstered like they do for a USPSA match.  That is their choice, so banning that practice seems a little off-putting.  Just allow it and call it a day.  Obviously this only corresponds to those shooting a centerfire handgun and a low-ready firearm during the same session.

[Gregg K]

@ZackJonesAfter looking at this again I see I made an assumption because of the USPSA rules in my head. Choice one is not a good option if you can't stay holstered when shooting just one division. I would prefer another option that aligns with USPSA rules. This is the USPSA rule that I'm referring to ...

 

5.1.9 A competitor must never use or wear more than one firearm during a course of fire (see Rule 10.5.7).

 

Having a rule that matches up with USPSA rules would be helpful for the RO's especially since we are forced to be USPSA RO before we can be an RO for SCSA. Yes, this is also a dig at no separate path to RO SCSA.

 

Choice 4 is still good since it puts the responsibility on the competitor but doesn't match up with USPSA rules.

 

[Hoops]

@ZackJones, I totally get where @Gregg Kis coming from.  And I also agree that SC should have its own RO certification…..and it’s own rules.
 

But after thinking about it, I believe that number 4 should be the choice.  Why?

 

1.  SC matches would not happen if not for volunteer RO’s without certifications (Level 1) who have run squads safely in 1,000’s of matches following SC rules.  It’s a different game than USPSA.  Interjecting another USPSA rule IMO should not be the basis of the decision to make a change in this case. 

 

2.  Safety.  This should be the only basis for consideration.  It is not a “gaming” issue.  SC already has a rule for holstered guns and low ready long guns.  SC also has a rule for a dropped guns after the make ready commands.  Based on the recent interpretation of the rule in this forum for holstered guns, low ready long guns is okay and therefore safe, subject to the dropped gun rule.  Are pistols, in SC, not equally as safe?

 

3.  I don’t have the data, but I would guess that 99% of SC matches have had low ready long guns and low ready pistols with holstered guns without any thought from RO’s or shooters.  Me included.  

 

4.  Just make a simple SC rules clarification to add low ready pistols along with existing low ready long gun.  It’s clean and will not have a ripple effect for 99% of the matches trying to explain what the difference was between the two guns.  I can just hear the the arguments now.  So item 4 makes sense to me.  
 

Thanks
 

 

[old558]

45 minutes ago, Hoops said:

@ZackJones, I totally get where @Gregg Kis coming from.  And I also agree that SC should have its own RO certification…..and it’s own rules.
 

But after thinking about it, I believe that number 4 should be the choice.  Why?

 

1.  SC matches would not happen if not for volunteer RO’s without certifications (Level 1) who have run squads safely in 1,000’s of matches following SC rules.  It’s a different game than USPSA.  Interjecting another USPSA rule IMO should not be the basis of the decision to make a change in this case. 

 

2.  Safety.  This should be the only basis for consideration.  It is not a “gaming” issue.  SC already has a rule for holstered guns and low ready long guns.  SC also has a rule for a dropped guns after the make ready commands.  Based on the recent interpretation of the rule in this forum for holstered guns, low ready long guns is okay and therefore safe, subject to the dropped gun rule.  Are pistols, in SC, not equally as safe?

 

3.  I don’t have the data, but I would guess that 99% of SC matches have had low ready long guns and low ready pistols with holstered guns without any thought from RO’s or shooters.  Me included.  

 

4.  Just make a simple SC rules clarification to add low ready pistols along with existing low ready long gun.  It’s clean and will not have a ripple effect for 99% of the matches trying to explain what the difference was between the two guns.  I can just hear the the arguments now.  So item 4 makes sense to me.  
 

Thanks
I agree

 

 

[warpspeed]

# 1 or # 4 

 

Wonder what a poll on USPSA.ORG would come back with ?

[zzt]

3 hours ago, warpspeed said:

# 1 or # 4 

 

Wonder what a poll on USPSA.ORG would come back with ?

 

I'd bet it would be #1 only.  5.1.9.

 

BTW, no one is talking about banning holstered pistols.  The discussion is about wearing one pistol while shooting another, or a long gun.

Edited October 15, 2023 by zzt

[warpspeed]

6 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I'd bet it would be #1 only.  5.1.9.

 

BTW, no one is talking about banning holstered pistols.  The discussion is about wearing one pistol while shooting another, or a long gun.

 

See, now that's where you might be wrong.

 

Option # 1 from @ZackJones post above reads  "No holstered guns for any division for any stage." which to me indicates that when you walk to the box, you best not have your handgun in a holster on your belt.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by warpspeed