How much do you trust the 2011/1911 platform?

[whan]

The 2011 platform has rapidly grown in popularity outside the competitive shooting community over the past year or two, driven by STI's rebranding and focus on the tactical market as Staccato, as well as the expiration of the 2011 patent resulting in a ton of new manufacturers/builders. We're now seeing more and more people outside the competition world using them as duty and carry guns. Yet, I wonder whether this will be end up being another fad, or if it will be here to stay. At risk of sounding a bit elitist, it feels like the "normies" are enamored by the shootability of the platform, which admittedly is why they've been so popular in competition.

 

But a lot of us have been around the platform long enough to know that it's not the easiest to keep running 100%. Tuning mags (feed lips, mag catch heights), pickiness of ammo OAL and bullet profiles, extractor tuning, sensitivity to lube, potential to break ejectors on slide-lock reloads, are all things I've had to deal with in my years shooting single-stack and playing around with 2011s as well. I'm sure some of it is due to the 2011/1911 being a "platform" vs a single manufacturer's design who can control all dimensions/tolerances. But I feel that a good part of it is just the platform's fundamental drawbacks, and am doubtful that these issues are suddenly gone with the advent of guns like the Staccato P. And I wonder if the sudden surge in popularity with Staccato will eventually fade a decent bit (at least in usage as duty/ccw guns), as those people also start to face some of the realities with the platform. Or perhaps those people don't actually shoot enough to realize it?

 

My perspective is that while I'd be mostly comfortable carrying a 1911/2011 or using it more of a HD/duty type role if needed, I honestly don't quite trust them like I do a Glock or P365. But welcome other's thoughts - would you trust it enough to use over other guns like glocks, M&Ps, etc.

Edited July 4, 2023 by whan

[RangerTrace]

I've carried 2011 style guns at work for over a decade with no issues.  I predict Staccato will continue the evolution of the 2011 mag like they did in the CS.  Shorten the platform a bit to match the 9mm/40cal cartridge like WC did and it might become even more reliable than it already is.  The biggest issue for carry/duty is most people aren't dumb like me and won't spend 3k-6k for a duty gun.  

[Joe4d]

The people that know the platform know what it takes to make it run. The ones that dont,, wont ever shoot it enough to really matter. 
My STI's,  and Para's wide and SS all ran fine. Usually isnt until you start tryign for a lighter trigger, more capacity, and after market doodads that problems arise.
That being said  revolvers and grip safety XDM's suit my needs better. Just not keen on coming off a horse with a locked and cocked 1911. 

[RJH]

I carry a 1911 occasionally, but I wouldn't seriously carry a 1911 or 2011. And I'm talking as a carry gun, not a duty gun

 

It has less to do with reliability and more to do with weight. But it does have a little to do with reliability in the sense of in my experience you do have to maintain 19/2011s more than you do plastic fantastics. I don't mind that aspect, but my carry gun gets the hell beat out of it and cleaned occasionally. So I guess I wouldn't trust a 19/2011 if it got abused quite as much as my standard carry gun does.

 

 

[jcc7x7]

Been carrying them in different versions since 1975 or so.

Gov't, commander, Para Double stack, 2011 5" etc etc

Currently a LW commander in 9 and a steel commander in 45.

 

They all run and I've hammered on them in practice, drills and competitions.

Don't see the problem with Duty/Carry use.

 

I shoot my guns more than any LEO I personally know.

Do I think they should be issued NO!

Do I think they should be available to LEO YES!

Ranger Trace is good evidence of a person who CHOOSES to use a 191/2011

 

This is opinion, take it for what it's worth!

[RangerTrace]

2 hours ago, jcc7x7 said:

Been carrying them in different versions since 1975 or so.

Gov't, commander, Para Double stack, 2011 5" etc etc

Currently a LW commander in 9 and a steel commander in 45.

 

They all run and I've hammered on them in practice, drills and competitions.

Don't see the problem with Duty/Carry use.

 

I shoot my guns more than any LEO I personally know.

Do I think they should be issued NO!

Do I think they should be available to LEO YES!

Ranger Trace is good evidence of a person who CHOOSES to use a 191/2011

 

This is opinion, take it for what it's worth!

I confess that I mainly carry a 3.9" GGI Modern Classic P320 these days, but I will qualify with my Atlas Ares next week to keep it on the books.  

[whan]

Very valid points from all - I agree that weight/size is probably the biggest reason I wouldn’t consider it as a carry gun (I like how my P365XL just disappears and takes no effort to conceal). Also agree that for enthusiasts and very experienced/dedicated operators it can work well. 

 

RangerTrace, would be curious to hear more about your experiences with the 2011 in a duty capacity. Obviously you have a lot of expertise with the platform - did you need to use that expertise to make sure your guns ran perfectly (IE knowing how to choose the right ammo, mags, etc.) or were they pretty much plug and play? I guess the gist of my question is, for broader population who only have experience with glocks/p320s that are very plug and play with any ammo/drop-in parts, is switching to a 2011 actually a good move for them

[RangerTrace]

1 hour ago, whan said:

Very valid points from all - I agree that weight/size is probably the biggest reason I wouldn’t consider it as a carry gun (I like how my P365XL just disappears and takes no effort to conceal). Also agree that for enthusiasts and very experienced/dedicated operators it can work well. 

 

RangerTrace, would be curious to hear more about your experiences with the 2011 in a duty capacity. Obviously you have a lot of expertise with the platform - did you need to use that expertise to make sure your guns ran perfectly (IE knowing how to choose the right ammo, mags, etc.) or were they pretty much plug and play? I guess the gist of my question is, for broader population who only have experience with glocks/p320s that are very plug and play with any ammo/drop-in parts, is switching to a 2011 actually a good move for them

It would take some searching, but it's all well documented on here.  Sticking the the widebody platform, I've carried STI (starting in late 2008/9ish) SV/Infinity, CKarms, Cheely Custom  Gunworks and Atlas Gunworks.  I learned how to keep them running on here with a solid maintenance program and good magazines.  

 

When I retired from the Rangers and no longer open carry at work, I just didn't see the need to carry a 5K+ gun to beat up that nobody could even see.

[shred]

I think size and weight and cost are the big ones for carrying 2011s.

 

"reliability?"  Ehhh.  How many people shoot more than one club match worth of ammo through their carry gun every year?   The reliability image is distorted by volume (and low-cost/quality ammo used when 'it doesn't really matter').

 

When you shoot a gun ten thousand times a year, you'll see about ten one-in-one-thousand issues that year.  Shoot that gun less than 1K a year and it could be years between them.  Same gun, same reliability but one seems way more reliable than the other.

 

FWIW, someone did a survey years ago and most pistols sold at retail had less than two boxes of ammo shot through them ever.

 

[sundevil827]

7 minutes ago, shred said:

"reliability?"  Ehhh.  How many people shoot more than one club match worth of ammo through their carry gun every year?   The reliability image is distorted by volume (and low-cost/quality ammo used when 'it doesn't really matter').

 

 

FWIW, someone did a survey years ago and most pistols sold at retail had less than two boxes of ammo shot through them ever.

 

 

I don't know....

 

When you stop going to matches, but you still enjoy shooting, I found that I've shot the hell out of my carry gun the last few years, because. why not? I'm not running any of the competition guns, because they were really built for that purpose, and even if they are fun, I'm not trying to improve my proficiency with them. Still love going out to shoot, but while overall volume went down, I found that I was spending 75-80% of my time and rounds thru my carry gun, just because that's fun to do for me.

 

Flipping it though, was thinking about checking out one of the CAPS matches (Lol, was going to squad up with ya! Haha!) and seeing how interested I would be in getting involved again, but that's where I see math flipping. Once I want to go shoot matches, I'd expect to practice for that more, and then the reliability part and consistent shooting is less important to me on a carry gun.

 

I don't doubt that survey is accurate, but I also think the "sport shooting community" is a far different niche than most gun owners. When I see someone on a gun forum talking about reliability, and proving out a gun before feeling comfortable carrying it, the answers mean a lot more rounds and testing than the general public.

 

To topic, I think the platform matters far less, as long as the things Shred mentioned, size, weight, cost (and I'll add in carry-ability, and shootability, that maybe extended those just a hair.) are covered. I carried a higher end 1911, and didn't worry about reliability, the past couple of years I had carried an SFX9, and tried out, and considered a Staccato. I sold the SFX9, and decided to carry a Canik Mete MC9. So I went from high dollar to inexpensive. Based on rounds thru them, I'd have trusted my life to any of them. Do I think that some of the production guns take less regular service? Probably. I admit, I took better care of the 1911 than the Canik, but I also knew what level of commitment it took for me to feel comfortable.  I don't think the potentially higher commitment to service and care that goes with a 1911/2011 should be a barrier. 

 

 

[Trader]

I had 3 factory guns and 2 I built myself. Mags were all in .38 super but always ran 9 mm , never touched the feed lips on any of them . The last one I built (9mm) was done on a .40 slide, it runs flawlessly. I never carry any of them, triggers are too light.

[RangerTrace]

I'm gonna put this to test again.  I ordered a CS last night.......

[Nathanb]

I went to open this year and once the initial quirks were worked out it’s been incredibly reliable. I will say I’m fortunate to shoot with someone who knows the platform as well as anyone so my issues were easy to identify and resolve. I’m just glad he was willing to help and works for beer. 

[Bigzona]

Great discussion.

 

As stated above (and I agree), one thing is high volume competition 2011s that require attention to ensure all components stay in tune (particularly for major PF), versus a 2011 used for EDC/CCW that will get some occasional practice rounds.  Before being serious about competition, I owned all the Staccatos and ran them hard with virtually no malfunctions.  They've all since been sold, with exception to my EDC (a C2), and I have the utmost trust in them.  In contrast, all my competition 2011s in Open and Limited have had a number of malfunctions in the initial phase while I worked through tuning to my preference, as well as the learning curve of going to major PF.

[GunBugBit]

A 1911 or 2011-pattern pistol that’s built right is as trustworthy as any other.  Whether a person wants to carry one is another thing.

[ltdmstr]

My

1 hour ago, GunBugBit said:

A 1911 or 2011-pattern pistol that’s built right is as trustworthy as any other.  Whether a person wants to carry one is another thing.

 

That's exactly right.  My main practice/competition gun gets about 15-20k a year down the tube and is now close to 100k total.  An that's all major pf ammo, not 9mm target loads.  Never have a single issue with it.  Gets cleaned after 500-1k rounds, and routine maintenance like spring replacement, etc.  That's it.  I've seen Glocks with cracked slides after 20k, lots of Sigs that are just crap from the get go, and on and on.  So, the idea that 1911/2011 is somehow inferior is simply not the case.  Assuming it's a quality gun that's built by someone who knows what they're doing, it's going to run just fine.  Whether you want to carry one is a different matter.  And there are some factors that weigh against doing so.  Mainly size and weight.  But reliability is not one of them.  

[beltfedgoodness]

I might be off on this but another factor to consider is tolerance. I've played with a few "new" 2011's (Prodigy, Staccato) and they sure are nice for the lower price but no where near as tight as my PT, or other custom 2011's I've handled. 

 

To sum it up these factory pistols are made to factory specs and tolerances. Mass production is key for them thus looser tolerances albeit still great guns and shooters! 

[858]

The question should probably be "How much do you trust other people's 1911/2011?". The platform can be made reliable but I see more 1911/2011 failures than any other type of pistol. Off the shelf 1911/2011 often don't run right, custom guns often don't stay running right.

[ltdmstr]

2 hours ago, 858 said:

The question should probably be "How much do you trust other people's 1911/2011?". The platform can be made reliable but I see more 1911/2011 failures than any other type of pistol. Off the shelf 1911/2011 often don't run right, custom guns often don't stay running right.

 

Well, most shooters make little or no effort to understand the weapons they carry,  how to maintain them or how to use them in a defensive situation.  And those folks probably shouldn't carry a 1911 to start with.  Just like a revolver is more idiot-proof than a semi-auto, a striker-fired plastic gun is more idiot-proof than a 1911.  But that doesn't make it a better choice for everyone.  And certainly not for individuals with the proper training and skillset.