Limited optics strong early showing

[RJH]

33 minutes ago, rishii said:

Except it’s still a provisional division and subject to change, it wouldn’t be the 1st time USPSA changed the rules and pissed people off.

locally there’s 1 guy with a prodigy, most of the LO shooters are either using their CO guns with magwells or putting dots on their old 40 limited guns

so in my small sample size if major was allowed, it would be popular

 

 

Do you think it would be popular if they just kept capacity at 20 and left it all minor?

 

At the local match this weekend where I'm at it's the third largest division behind carryouts and open. Still a few days to sign up, so I don't know how it will all end up shaking out. But I have already seen several guys with new custom 9 mil 2011's. I don't know how many at the match this weekend will be shooting Sao guns versus carryop legal guns with a MAG well.

 

 

As far as USPSA changing the rules to accept major, I don't think there's anyway that's happening. So I'm kind of done discussing that part. If y'all want to have a major minor thread go ahead and start it LOL

[Racinready300ex]

32 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

unless the stages are really hosey, CO shooters seem to always beat limited shooters of equivalent skill.

 

I see no problem here. Maybe we could give the major guys a little something else. But you'll never balance it, not really. 

[MHicks]

I still think people are underestimating how many people want to shoot 9mm minor ammo, that many can buy cheaply, in a high cap division without being at a disadvantage to those shooting major.

[Joe4d]

37 minutes ago, MHicks said:

I still think people are underestimating how many people want to shoot 9mm minor ammo, that many can buy cheaply, in a high cap division without being at a disadvantage to those shooting major.

yep, that has more to do with CO numbers than the optic.
If they had just done a A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want division, or a 140 mm mag rule for production. WOulda been game over for most other divisions. I am an avid reloader, and really it isnt worth my time , and never really has been to load 9mm. Even now, seems factory 9mm prices have dropped faster than primers and powders are really high.
Been saying for 10 years USPSA would do good with less divisions 
Limited same
A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want, box , weight, add on rules.
Open,
Open minor current CO/LO rules.
Locap,, 10 minor/8 major, 125 pf scores major in revolver.
 

[GigG]

21 hours ago, RJH said:

Do you think it would be popular if they just kept capacity at 20 and left it all minor?

 

 

So your thought is to make what is a racegun class (LO) have a lower capacity than the production class (CO).

[Racinready300ex]

43 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

So your thought is to make what is a racegun class (LO) have a lower capacity than the production class (CO).

 

Yeah that sounds silly.

 

I think the move is either roll them both together or add more restrictions to CO. Maybe it's capacity, maybe it's weight or both. Minimum trigger pull rule could be easy to enforce while still allowing people to modify their guns as they wish. 

 

I think CO could still be interesting with lighter guns and heavier triggers making the guns harder to shoot. But, I think I'm in the minority. 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, GigG said:

 

So your thought is to make what is a racegun class (LO) have a lower capacity than the production class (CO).

 

That is one thought, and an easy way to keep from obsoleting current limited guns that people might want to shoot limited optics in. And it would be a way to do that without forcing a new division to be tied to a dying caliber.

 

I'm also fine with it being just like it is now, I do think the provisional division rules are just about perfect. But if they drop the capacity limit to 20 so that old limited guns would be able to be shot at no disadvantage, that would seem reasonable to me.

 

From a shooting aspect, 18, 20, or 24 rounds doesn't make much difference. From a competitive aspect the differential between those can make a difference

[truespode]

32 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

From a shooting aspect, 18, 20, or 24 rounds doesn't make much difference. From a competitive aspect the differential between those can make a difference

 

I load my Carry Optics mags to 21 on average except a couple here and there b/c they are easier on seating and does not impact where I make my reload during COF. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think the move is either roll them both together or add more restrictions to CO. Maybe it's capacity, maybe it's weight or both. Minimum trigger pull rule could be easy to enforce while still allowing people to modify their guns as they wish. 

 

I think CO could still be interesting with lighter guns and heavier triggers making the guns harder to shoot. But, I think I'm in the minority. 

I think this is the sensible path. rolling them both together is obviously stupid and will result in yet another division where custom 2011's are the overwhelming choice, but enforcing a lighter weight and/or lower capacity or shorter mag length might return CO to being a practical division based at least roughly on guns that people actually carry for defense or duty.

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I think this is the sensible path. rolling them both together is obviously stupid and will result in yet another division where custom 2011's are the overwhelming choice, but enforcing a lighter weight and/or lower capacity or shorter mag length might return CO to being a practical division based at least roughly on guns that people actually carry for defense or duty.

 

I'd be more interested in that option. And I've talked to a few CO shooters who have expressed similar thoughts. 

[BritinUSA]

Use the original concept of Production Optics at 15 rounds (same as IPSC, very limited mods allowed)

 

Limited Optics (with 140mm mags), and trash Carry Optics. 
 

Anyone who has spent a ton of money customizing their CO guns can just slide into Limited Optics.

 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Use the original concept of Production Optics at 15 rounds (same as IPSC, very limited mods allowed)

 

Limited Optics (with 140mm mags), and trash Carry Optics. 
 

Anyone who has spent a ton of money customizing their CO guns can just slide into Limited Optics.

 

 

I personally think the ipsc limits on modifications are stupid and pointless, and that's why CO was dead when it was restricted, but I'd be cool with 15 rounds and the reasonable sorts of modifications that reasonable people do, which is pretty much anything imho. It's retarded to punish people for having a different hand shape.

[RJH]

So, here's how it shook out this month at the local match I shot. Out of about 31 shooters, 11 were carry outs and six were limited optics with the remainder scattered among all the other divisions. I know at least three of the guys shooting limited optics we're shooting Sao guns, I don't know about the rest. It wasn't a huge match, but it was over 100°, so I wouldn't expect to have a giant turnout

 

 

That's a strong early showing, I do believe limited optics will be the biggest division there is within a few years. I think USPSA is going to have hit it out of the park with this division. The only division that might keep up is carry-ops, and that's simply because of the giant manufacturer exposure, but when most people are spending the money out of their own pockets and they can get a decent lo gun for the cost of a nice carryops gun, I think they'll end up just spending the money for the lo gun.

[2011BLDR]

Giting racey around hear:

1 Atalas sight block

1 DS9 

1 Prodigy with EGW Internals & a Steal grip replacement 

So far.

[RJH]

I saw a post that Jake Martin's had made on the book of faces the other day and since limited optics started on May 1st it has made up 10% of the activity. For reference both limited and open we're at about 14%, and carry optics was huge at I want to say 40ish percent. Of course limited optics numbers could be slightly inflated with people trying to get classified, but in reality carry optics numbers could be slightly inflated because Nationals just happened. Also at 10% limited optics did rank fourth out of all divisions.

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

I saw a post that Jake Martin's had made on the book of faces the other day and since limited optics started on May 1st it has made up 10% of the activity. For reference both limited and open we're at about 14%, and carry optics was huge at I want to say 40ish percent. Of course limited optics numbers could be slightly inflated with people trying to get classified, but in reality carry optics numbers could be slightly inflated because Nationals just happened. Also at 10% limited optics did rank fourth out of all divisions.

 

I saw that, it's a pretty crazy number. I'm sure CO and PCC weren't anywhere near that number. It would not surprise me in the least for LO to be the #2 division before the one year mark. I could even see it surpassing CO in under 3 years. 

[shred]

They will probably declare it a 'success' with a rule-set that can't be changed, because 'success'...

 

[truespode]

13 minutes ago, shred said:

They will probably declare it a 'success' with a rule-set that can't be changed, because 'success'...

 

 

I think anything can be criticized but so far I like LO. I thought I would just shoot it to get classified then go back to CO since I'm using the same gun and just added a magwell. I ended up liking the magwell more than I thought. I shot Limited before and liked my magwell but didn't realize how much I like my grip when shooting it.

I changed my sign up for NC Sectionals to LO and will probably stick to it even though I have a better chance at getting B in CO (my high % was 59% but had a string of 40's recently). 

[RJH]

2 hours ago, shred said:

They will probably declare it a 'success' with a rule-set that can't be changed, because 'success'...

 

 

 

Well, I really can't think of anything that should be changed, so not changing anything wouldn't be the end of the world. I wouldn't mind a 20 round of mag limit, but I don't see that happening. Other than that limited optics is pretty perfect for the world we live in today

[Boomstick303]

I always go back to essentially they have created a Division that you can truly shoot what you brought for the most part, and not be at a scoring disadvantage. 

 

Is that a bad thing?

[ColoradoNick]

33 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I always go back to essentially they have created a Division that you can truly shoot what you brought for the most part, and not be at a scoring disadvantage. 

 

Is that a bad thing?

Amen. Only thing keeping me from LO next year is if they introduce major PF. Then I'll stick to Carry Optics. 

[HOGRIDER]

58 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I always go back to essentially they have created a Division that you can truly shoot what you brought for the most part, and not be at a scoring disadvantage. 

 

Is that a bad thing?

AGREE !!!!

 

[motosapiens]

8 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

I always go back to essentially they have created a Division that you can truly shoot what you brought for the most part, and not be at a scoring disadvantage. 

unless you didn't buy a custom 2011. then you are at a disadvantage.... LO is basically a division for people that want to spend a s#!tload of money on a custom gun, but don't like reloading or are worried about recoil. Not that there is anything wrong with that.....

Edited July 1, 2023 by motosapiens

[truespode]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

unless you didn't buy a custom 2011. then you are at a disadvantage...

 

What disadvantage? It's a hobby for me and most. I get to shoot the gun I want which is a lot more capable then I am. I will not finish higher with a 2011 than I do my 509 because I don't train. Most shooters don't. 

 

It may make a difference in the top 10% but none of us are catching them if we have STI and they have M&P. I do want a MPA but mostly for bling factor

 

I like the division. I like hicap minor with a magwell. If they combine LO and CO I won't care. If they leave it alone I won't care. 

 

You may be one of the few here that gets this reference but put me on a 500AF and Dungey on a TTR125 and Dungey wins hands down :). I witnessed similar in Illinois when the maker of the 500AF who had a pro card but but top level beat solid B class riders who were riding 250's and he was on a TTR.

 

There is a lot that can change for personal preferences but except at the top it won't really have a significant competitive equity impact, in my opinion.

[shred]

That's pretty much true for any division and a sufficiently-skilled top shooter.  

 

Doesn't keep them from turning into 'you must have this hotness pistol' divisions though.  Glock .40s have been legal for limited since before STIs were but about nobody shoots one; they all have custom 2011s no matter how good they aren't.