What has SIG done to accuracy?

[Stuey]

11 hours ago, jpm2953 said:

my X-five legion was terrible in the accuracy department. 4-5" groups at 15 yards.  My CZ shadows shoot circles around it. Not even a comparison. 

 

I have a couple Sig P226's that are stupid accurate. The P320 Legion was a disappointment. 

I sold my CZ Shadow to get the SIG Legion and I regretted that.  It was horrible in accuracy and I could not get use to the grip.  Sold the Legion and bought an AXG, accuracy is better but not great.  I think I am done with Siga.  

[tt350z]

I’m confident with headbox at 15 yards plus at my speed with my OZ9 and Shadow 2. Not so much with the AXG Pro. I have to slow down and be deliberate.

[oddjob]

I know the old thread indicated that 147's were poor in the accuracy department and 124's were acceptable.  Same here I'm guessing? 

[Rich406]

1 hour ago, oddjob said:

I know the old thread indicated that 147's were poor in the accuracy department and 124's were acceptable.  Same here I'm guessing? 

Coated bullets are usually the issue. 

[erwos]

3 hours ago, tt350z said:

I’m confident with headbox at 15 yards plus at my speed with my OZ9 and Shadow 2. Not so much with the AXG Pro. I have to slow down and be deliberate.

TBH, this was when I knew I had a problem. Took out my 2011, blew out the head box. Realized I could shoot perfectly fine.

 

I have a couple KKM barrels on order, so we'll see if that fixes the problem. Or at least helps it a bit.

[Miranda]

ah well   into a rabbit hole...

 

I have not found a line where it is me  as opposed to the gun or yet another problem

with the ammo...

 

so ya blast at a target.   the paper says you missed center by 10 inches.

the ammo caused the flyer...  how can you be sure?

the pistol caused the flyer... how can you be sure?

and finally, I yanked or pushed or blinked.  maybe?

until you are pretty sure you did your part,  you have to accept your

equipment is doing what it should.

 

I learned to aim with open sights over a 22LR lever my cousin owned.

my ability at 25 yards and averaged over any given ten shots; 8 pretty tight and 2 random flyers

that would have missed even a large rabbit...

it will do nothing for your confidence should you go hunting rabbits.

Did I miss or what that a random flyer? 

( I missed the only rabbit I saw when we went hunting)

 

Most guys here claim (and have some photos as proof) more accuracy than

what I see on my targets.  There is a real limit to what a pistol can do as accuracy.

Compared to a rifle for accuracy, a pistol is second.

My complaint of all pistols is that I'd want more accuracy.

 

If the thread had been started as

what-has-sig-done-to-reliability   I would be waaay more concerned...

 

In the chase for that ever vanishing center, I want the pistol to bark without question.

Most pistols can be given a tune up to get closer to aim point.

Should I spend extra to add accuracy,  I will add that cost  (if known)

to the price of a given firearm to help with price/performance considerations.

 

once you get a pistol that is more accurate than you are...

Be careful about chasing accuracy up that asymptote,

it is ephemeral as well as expensive.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RangerTrace]

I agree with MIranda to a point.  Can I shoot groups better with a nice 1911 than I can with my Sigs.  Absolutely.  I blame the groups on the trigger.  

 

At match speed, I've noticed than my hits are better with my GGI/Sigs than with 1911s and I think I've figured out why.  I can pull the trigger faster than I can see the sights which causes less than perfect follow up shots.  My eyes can keep up with the longer pull of the Sig.  The hits on target seem to support my theory.  But, I will never when a bullseye contest with them......

[mpeltier]

20 hours ago, oddjob said:

I know the old thread indicated that 147's were poor in the accuracy department and 124's were acceptable.  Same here I'm guessing? 

 

No not the same here. 147's were the most accurate, but not great.

 

 

19 hours ago, Rich406 said:

Coated bullets are usually the issue. 

 

Not in my case, I do not shoot coated or plated. All test ammo was FMJ either reloaded or factory loaded. The only ammo my P320 X5 shot remotely accurate was 147 FMJ factory loads.

 

This particular SIG reminds me of the issues I experienced with an early M&P. Ended up being an early unlocking problem. This may be similarly a locking issue. The barrel does depress an unusual amount when in battery. My P320 M17 doesn't budge. The M17 is very accurate with any ammo. The slide and barrel may well both contribute to the problem. It is a real problem, just not sure I am willing to go any further by throwing more $$$ at it. Shame on SIG for a swing and a miss on this dog.

[erwos]

11 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

At match speed, I've noticed than my hits are better with my GGI/Sigs than with 1911s and I think I've figured out why.  I can pull the trigger faster than I can see the sights which causes less than perfect follow up shots.  My eyes can keep up with the longer pull of the Sig.  The hits on target seem to support my theory.  But, I will never win a bullseye contest with them......

I had this problem initially when making the switch from X5Ls to 2011s, but it seems like the problem has mostly resolved itself. Last time I used a Limited Optics-style 2011 at a match, it may as well have been a laser beam.

 

I'd love to write off the accuracy of the X5L as "good enough", but the reality is that if you've got to deliver on tight shots, it's not helping you. This sucks, because I absolutely love everything else about the gun.

[mpeltier]

Well, I fixed it. Its as good as most of my competition guns now. 

 

I decided to do some side to side comparisons with other P320's and a couple M&P's. All of which shot much better than my XFive.

 

In a nutshell my conclusion was that barrel to slide was as good but the way the slide rested in the FCU was so much worse with the XFive. Even with my M17 top end on it there was excessive play. If you pinched the front of the slide to the dustcover there was .032 of free play. Considerably more than any of my other Poly pistols. I had read in another thread about this I believe.

 

I figured the worse I could do was trash an FCU.......down to the workshop (where the big hammers live) and did some swinging.

 

First I took some measurements of the FCU so I could gauge my progress. I needed to lower the rails by .020. At least that was my goal and wanted to approach this number with caution and slowly. It took some real good taps, with the help and trust of my son holding the FCU. But I got er done, and didn't break it.

 

The process widened the rails so they had to be massaged with a file to get a good fit with the slide. I progressed until it was sorta a hard fit then stopped, lubed and re assembled. It actually was like the original Fives in as much as if you rode the slide home it would stop short but released from slide lock went home nicely.

 

Took it outside to my range and it ran flawlessly, and grouped about one third the size as previously and best of all...no flyers at all.

 

First target was a group under 2"

 

 

 

 

Next target was 50rds rapid fire as fast as I could pull the trigger......3-1/4" group.

When I tried that last weekend 1/4 of the hits were off the 8x11 paper.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by mpeltier

[MikeBurgess]

stock 320s have a LOT of vertical clearance from the locking lug on the barrel and the locking pin in the FCU,  I have welded up and re-machined a few barrels on friends guns and most have needed +0.020" to get a decent lockup. all have reported better accuracy specifically the lack of unexpected flyers 

 

 

[Miranda]

hmmmm...  a snug fit on the slide you say.

 

I wonder If my vise will give me more control in the bending.

 

miranda

[RangerTrace]

Impressive results.......

[iflyskyhigh]

On 3/6/2023 at 6:18 AM, GJM said:

The problem isn't the barrel it is the 320 Legion slide. Original 320 X5 pistols shot great. Substituting an original X5 slide solves the accuracy problems. Also the GGI Lockwood slides shoot great. 
 

First picture is my first five rounds of PMC 124 freestyle at 20 yards from a new Lockwood, second shot is after adjusting the R3 Max. 

 

You’re saying you shot those 5 shots off hand / no support at 20 yards?

Edited March 8, 2023 by iflyskyhigh

[mpeltier]

5 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

stock 320s have a LOT of vertical clearance from the locking lug on the barrel and the locking pin in the FCU,  I have welded up and re-machined a few barrels on friends guns and most have needed +0.020" to get a decent lockup. all have reported better accuracy specifically the lack of unexpected flyers 

 

 

 

When I first started analyzing the issues I thought my barrel had some play in the slide by pushing down on it. After careful inspection of this it was actually pushing the slide back slightly when I did this witch resulted in the barrel starting to cam downward. Wasn't anything wrong there. But all that free vertical play, more up front than in the back just struck me as wrong. After some careful measuring I was pretty sure it was a tolerance issue with the FCU shell as it was stamped at the factory. These stamped FCU housings are not the most precise pieces and rely on the dies that strike them for their tolerances. I think SIG needs new dies. Or better yet offer a CNC machined FCU to better control and tighten this up. The FCU housing is amazingly simple. A good CNC machine could spit one out in no time.

[Miranda]

50 minutes ago, iflyskyhigh said:

You’re saying you shot those 5 shots off hand / no support at 20 yards?

 

Rut roh.  do you really want to chase that claim here on the internet?

 

most of the posters here have me believing they are all

handsome as a young Clint and can shoot hanging ropes at 500 yards

while mounted on horseback.

 

I don't ask out of fear one may find a way to prove it.

 

he says improved accuracy, lets go with that?

 

miranda

[cheby]

17 minutes ago, Miranda said:

 

Rut roh.  do you really want to chase that claim here on the internet?

 

most of the posters here have me believing they are all

handsome as a young Clint and can shoot hanging ropes at 500 yards

while mounted on horseback.

 

I don't ask out of fear one may find a way to prove it.

 

he says improved accuracy, lets go with that?

 

miranda

I can assure you that he is capable of  shooting that group. 

[HOGRIDER]

9 hours ago, mpeltier said:

Well, I fixed it. Its as good as most of my competition guns now. 

 

I decided to do some side to side comparisons with other P320's and a couple M&P's. All of which shot much better than my XFive.

 

In a nutshell my conclusion was that barrel to slide was as good but the way the slide rested in the FCU was so much worse with the XFive. Even with my M17 top end on it there was excessive play. If you pinched the front of the slide to the dustcover there was .032 of free play. Considerably more than any of my other Poly pistols. I had read in another thread about this I believe.

 

I figured the worse I could do was trash an FCU.......down to the workshop (where the big hammers live) and did some swinging.

 

First I took some measurements of the FCU so I could gauge my progress. I needed to lower the rails by .020. At least that was my goal and wanted to approach this number with caution and slowly. It took some real good taps, with the help and trust of my son holding the FCU. But I got er done, and didn't break it.

 

The process widened the rails so they had to be massaged with a file to get a good fit with the slide. I progressed until it was sorta a hard fit then stopped, lubed and re assembled. It actually was like the original Fives in as much as if you rode the slide home it would stop short but released from slide lock went home nicely.

 

Took it outside to my range and it ran flawlessly, and grouped about one third the size as previously and best of all...no flyers at all.

 

First target was a group under 2"

 

 

 

 

Next target was 50rds rapid fire as fast as I could pull the trigger......3-1/4" group.

When I tried that last weekend 1/4 of the hits were off the 8x11 paper.

 

 

 

@mpeltierCongratulations on the results of your experimentation!  Definitely proved what results can be had.

 

I remembered seeing a similar post a while back that also showed what could be done by bringing the FCU rails down to get rid of that excessive play:

 

 

Would definitely jump on the opportunity to purchase a precision CNC machined FCU to improve the slide to FCU fit!

 

Thanks for sharing your results!

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by HOGRIDER
sp

[Miranda]

2 hours ago, cheby said:

I can assure you that he is capable of  shooting that group. 

Hi Cheby, 

for a moment please go back and appreciate the humor in my post and

that is is/was intended to avoid the need for braggadocio.

 

That said, here on a forum you CAN"T prove anything...

Allow me to explain.  Lets say I can shoot inside an inch

at 5 yards, do you believe I can do that? how could I prove it?

You will have to take my word for it...

and why do you question me if I say I can shoot inside an inch and a half

at 25 yards? any chance you would believe me that I can hit bullseyes at 50 yards

with a pistol free hand? 

and again how can I prove that claim?

 

To be clear, I do not know how fast and accurate I am with my pistol.

I can't match the claims I have read here for speed and accuracy. 

The ranges I visited did not like timers or draws and I had at least

one range master tell me to stop the bill drills I was doing.

he said it was unsafe to spray bullets.

he did leave me alone after he saw the target.

 

I am not stating the targets presented are faked. I believe them

and that is not the same thing as proof.

 

miranda

 

 

 

[cheby]

1 hour ago, Miranda said:

Hi Cheby, 

for a moment please go back and appreciate the humor in my post and

that is is/was intended to avoid the need for braggadocio.

 

That said, here on a forum you CAN"T prove anything...

Allow me to explain.  Lets say I can shoot inside an inch

at 5 yards, do you believe I can do that? how could I prove it?

You will have to take my word for it...

and why do you question me if I say I can shoot inside an inch and a half

at 25 yards? any chance you would believe me that I can hit bullseyes at 50 yards

with a pistol free hand? 

and again how can I prove that claim?

 

To be clear, I do not know how fast and accurate I am with my pistol.

I can't match the claims I have read here for speed and accuracy. 

The ranges I visited did not like timers or draws and I had at least

one range master tell me to stop the bill drills I was doing.

he said it was unsafe to spray bullets.

he did leave me alone after he saw the target.

 

I am not stating the targets presented are faked. I believe them

and that is not the same thing as proof.

 

miranda

 

 

 

Postmodern post:)

[GJM]

13 hours ago, iflyskyhigh said:

You’re saying you shot those 5 shots off hand / no support at 20 yards?

Yes, absolutely off hand/free style. I was probably as surprised as you are, because they are the best groups like that I have shot, and I shoot a fair number of groups messing around with different pistols and optics. Made my wife look at them at the time.  The  Lockwood/PMC 124 combination is a good one. 
 

Here is the post I made at the time, and I probably texted Cheby a picture because they were so crazy.

 

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37340-SIG-P320-XFive-Legion/page17

 

[tt350z]

Man I forgot I had a gen 1 M&P Pro. That thing had such terrible accuracy as well. Swore off M&P’s to this day because of that gun.

Edited March 9, 2023 by tt350z

[mpeltier]

24 minutes ago, tt350z said:

Man I forgot I had a gen 1 M&P Pro. That thing had such terrible accuracy as well. Swore off M&P’s to this day because of that gun.

 

I had one too. When I first shot the SIG, I thought, here we go agin.....Just like the original M&P. an Apex bbl fixed that M&P. I no longer have that gun but do have a 9mm and .40sw M&P 2.0 and they are very accurate out of the box.

[Miranda]

Hi mpeltier,

I have to give you an apology because after re-reading this thread,

I realized I conflated you and boomstick303.

please accept that I meant you no harm or slight in my mistake

 

You have given me a gift in that I have a better idea of what is

possible in pistol accuracy... :--D  and a great excuse to find another

and better pistol. 

miranda

[GJM]

Pretty busy day, with travel from MT to AZ, but I made it to the range late this afternoon. I needed to check some zeros on a number of pistols, so I brought the 4.7 Lockwood Sig and some PMC 124 ammo. B8 at 20 yards. I even filmed the group shooting but no one wants to watch over a minute of me slow firing. This was my 10 round group -- not nearly as tight as those back in December. I tried another and it was about the same. 
 

I then shot a new Glock 47 that I had never shot before -- same B8/20 yards. It is the second photo. Repeated a similar group, that I also filmed. 

 

Next shot my Cameron Super Comp and it was tighter than the Glock group. My wife had lost interest in videoing by then, saying it was cutting into her practice.
 

Not sure what to make of this. Initially, I thought I was just having a bad day, but the Glock and Cameron groups were fine. Could the Lockwood have loosened up in the approximate thousand rounds I have through it? Will try it again some time next week and see what I get.