New Steel Challenge Rules: Effective 3-1

[bigdawgbeav]

8.3.8.2

Original rule: Rimfire pistol –show clear and holster or case. (Trigger need not be pulled.)

Updated rule: Rimfire pistol –show clear and holster or case. (Trigger need not be pulled.) RO may say "If clear, bag."

 

8.3.8.3

Original rule: Rimfire Rifle – show clear, flag, and case. (Trigger need not be pulled.) Note: The bolt must be closed on a chamber flag.

Updated rule: Rimfire Rifle –show clear, flag, and case/muzzle up. (Trigger need not be pulled.) Note: The bolt must be closed on a chamber flag. RO may say "If clear, flag."

 

8.5 and 8.5.1

New section and rule: Movement, Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard.

10.3.7

Original rule: Moving (taking more than one step) with finger inside of trigger guard.

Updated rule: Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in accordance with Section 8.5.

 

8.5 and 10.3.7 are going to change how competitors move on Outer Limits and how ROs enforce.  If I'm reading this correctly shooters CAN keep their fingers inside the trigger guard as long as they are aiming at one of the targets moving from box to box.  If they lower the muzzle off of a target then they will have to have finger outside the trigger guard.  Am I reading that correctly?

[zzt]

I don't know J.  That seems to be what is meant, but it is silly.  Am I going to DQ a shooter because the muzzle dropped half way down the post while they were moving?  I don't think so.  For now, I'll tell my squad to keep them fully outside the trigger until there is more clarity on this.

 

This sis what I don't get about USPSA/SCSA.  They had a perfectly clear, unambiguously enforceable rule and the mussy it up.  Same thing for USPSA.  Why are you DQing me?  I was aiming at a target.  No, you weren't.  A barrier is considered opaque and extends from ground up to infinity.   You know you are not allowed to shoot through it, so why do you think you can aim through it.  A couple of argument like that and now everyone keeps their finger out of the guard until the actually are aiming at a target.  I think the same will happen with those two rules.  Some DH will call a DQ, the MD will get involved, and there will be arguing.

[bigdawgbeav]

15 hours ago, zzt said:

I don't know J.  That seems to be what is meant, but it is silly.  Am I going to DQ a shooter because the muzzle dropped half way down the post while they were moving?  I don't think so.  For now, I'll tell my squad to keep them fully outside the trigger until there is more clarity on this.

 

This sis what I don't get about USPSA/SCSA.  They had a perfectly clear, unambiguously enforceable rule and the mussy it up.  Same thing for USPSA.  Why are you DQing me?  I was aiming at a target.  No, you weren't.  A barrier is considered opaque and extends from ground up to infinity.   You know you are not allowed to shoot through it, so why do you think you can aim through it.  A couple of argument like that and now everyone keeps their finger out of the guard until the actually are aiming at a target.  I think the same will happen with those two rules.  Some DH will call a DQ, the MD will get involved, and there will be arguing.

At least in SC there are no barriers leaving aiming a subjective call.  Personally I'll still take my finger out as that's the way I've always done it.  That's also why I voted the rule change was subjective.  Unfortunately match staff can't tell all shooters to keep finger out of trigger guard.  Well, they can say it, but can't enforce it if the shooter is moving and aiming at the targets.  So now not only is the RO looking at the feet and finger but now checking if the shooter is aiming at the next target.  It's going to take a new mindset when RO'ing OL.

 

I get why they did it as this aligns more with USPSA where you can move as long as you are aiming at your next target.

[zzt]

You aren't 'aiming' when you glance down to see where the center box is.  Why does SCSA have to align with USPSA in every way?  It's like the lunacy of requiring me to say hammer sown, holster to a RFPI shooter.  He doesn't have to pull the trigger, and he doesn't have a holster.  At least now we have an option.

[Gregg K]

On 3/1/2023 at 3:22 PM, bigdawgbeav said:

8.3.8.3

Original rule: Rimfire Rifle – show clear, flag, and case. (Trigger need not be pulled.) Note: The bolt must be closed on a chamber flag.

Updated rule: Rimfire Rifle –show clear, flag, and case/muzzle up. (Trigger need not be pulled.) Note: The bolt must be closed on a chamber flag. RO may say "If clear, flag."

So we still have 8.1.7 that says after removing the rifle from the case at a side berm it can be transported to the shooting box reasonably vertical up or down but then along comes the new and improved 8.3.8.3 that says you case or go muzzle up when you are done, cleared and flagged.

Make them both the same, I don't really care which they change but if muzzle up or down is good coming in the box then it should be good leaving.

[Joe4d]

well maybe if we didnt go full retard and allow rifles at a pistol match this wouldnt be an issue

[PeterParfinik]

On 3/1/2023 at 4:22 PM, bigdawgbeav said:

8.5 and 10.3.7 are going to change how competitors move on Outer Limits and how ROs enforce.  If I'm reading this correctly shooters CAN keep their fingers inside the trigger guard as long as they are aiming at one of the targets moving from box to box.  If they lower the muzzle off of a target then they will have to have finger outside the trigger guard.  Am I reading that correctly?

Thats the way it reads to me also.

[Thomas H]

On 3/1/2023 at 3:22 PM, bigdawgbeav said:

8.5 and 10.3.7 are going to change how competitors move on Outer Limits and how ROs enforce.  If I'm reading this correctly shooters CAN keep their fingers inside the trigger guard as long as they are aiming at one of the targets moving from box to box.  If they lower the muzzle off of a target then they will have to have finger outside the trigger guard.  Am I reading that correctly?

 

Truthfully, I thinks this makes it easier to enforce.

 

Here's why:  Under the old rule, if a person started to bring their gun up and put their finger in the trigger guard while stepping into the box on Outer Limits, that was supposed to be a DQ.  (They have certainly taken more than one step, and are currently in movement.)  And yet, that's what almost everyone does---their finger is in the trigger guard when they are moving.  By the original rule, that's a flat-out DQ.

 

But no one ever got DQed for it, of course.  That's because if they had lit one off, it wouldn't have been an unsafe situation, it would have been a foot fault since it was still outside the box but they were trying to hit the target.

 

Under the new rule, people will be treated exactly as they should---if your sights are on target, then your finger can be on the trigger.  Where-ever you are.  You might get a foot fault for taking a shot when you shouldn't, but the action itself isn't unsafe because you are aiming at a target. 

 

So yeah, if someone wants to slowly move across the distance in Outer Limits while aiming at the next target with their finger on the trigger the whole time, sure.  That shouldn't be a DQ.

 

The RO doesn't have to be able to judge "are they perfectly on target" because we don't equate "aiming at a target" to "getting hits".  (Just like shooting AT a target is sufficient to engage in USPSA, whether it hits or not.)  We equate "on target" to "aiming toward a target which automatically means a safe direction." 

 

The RO doesn't have to see the gun alignment.  At the same time, just pointing into a random berm isn't "at a target" either. 

 

Is the shooter trying to get on target, and as they do so, do they put their finger in the trigger? Then that's fine, whenever it occurs.

 

Under the old rules, all those fast kids who brought the gun up and had their finger in the trigger as they stepped into the center box on Outer Limits SHOULD have been DQed.  The new rule works a lot better, IMO.

[bigdawgbeav]

19 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

Here's why:  Under the old rule, if a person started to bring their gun up and put their finger in the trigger guard while stepping into the box on Outer Limits, that was supposed to be a DQ.  (They have certainly taken more than one step, and are currently in movement.)  And yet, that's what almost everyone does---their finger is in the trigger guard when they are moving.  By the original rule, that's a flat-out DQ.

 

If a shooter is stepping into the center box and putting their finger in the guard that isn't a DQ.  Once they are in the box they are no longer moving.  If it is a truly fast shooter they might not have the 2nd foot in, but as long as that isn't touching the ground they are "in the box".  Movement is defined as taking MORE than 1 step.  If a shooter starts moving their finger into the guard as they are making that last step into the box that is perfectly legal.

 

This new rule just means that a shooter can move to the center box with their finger in the guard as long as they are aiming at the targets.  zzt makes a good point that even if the shooter is pointing the gun towards the targets if they look down they are no longer aiming.  

 

Going back to my previous statement I, personally, will keep removing my finger.  I don't need to try and game the system and possibly slip, trip etc.  

[PeterParfinik]

8 minutes ago, bigdawgbeav said:

If it is a truly fast shooter they might not have the 2nd foot in, but as long as that isn't touching the ground they are "in the box".  Movement is defined as taking MORE than 1 step.  If a shooter starts moving their finger into the guard as they are making that last step into the box that is perfectly legal

I have always tried to get my finger in the guard as I was lifting my second foot off of the ground, did not always achieve it as fast as wanted to.

I have also had foot faults called when I discharged the gun with one foot in the air. 

I guess we are going to see how this is applied at Worlds this year and if some clarifications comes from it.

 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, PeterParfinik said:

I have also had foot faults called when I discharged the gun with one foot in the air. 

 

If one foot is in the box and the other is not 'out', you have established a legal presence.  You should have challenged the call.  Probably, the RO was a steel shooter without an NROI cert.  A USPSA RO would never have made that call.  If you, for some strange reason, decided to jump into the air for your last shot, that's fine.  There is no rule that says one or both feet must be on the ground.  Once you have established a legal presence, you are legal until a foot touches outside the box, or shooting area.

 

My current practice is to touch the trigger after I have established a legal presence.  I try to take the shot before the other foot is inside the box.  Doesn't always work.

Edited March 3, 2023 by zzt

[KelsonAK]

Yea - one foot in the air and one in the box is in.  That would have been a bad call.  

I mean, i've watched folks lift a foot on the second shot from the first box - that's also good to go as they are not out of the shooting area, therefore 'in.'  I've also seen folks swear up and down that their foot was in the air when they lit one off on entry to the shooting area but.... yea no.  What they thought they did and what they actually did were two different things...  That's part of the whole risk/reward part of the game

As an RO - this is where having multiple ROs watching is a good thing.  One can watch the gun/shooter upper body, one can watch the feet and if you are flush with staff, one to watch the targets.  It's dang hard to watch a fast shooter's gun, feet, finger, and targets when it's just you chasing with the timer - and you have to get to the ejection port side of things to get the shot to register reliably. 

[Squirrel45]

3 hours ago, bigdawgbeav said:

 

 

Going back to my previous statement I, personally, will keep removing my finger.  I don't need to try and game the system and possibly slip, trip etc.  

Agreed 

[Dr. Phil]

I think it's a rule in search of a DQ.

Every club where I have shot SC there have been those who never remove their finger when they move from box to box on Outer Limits. They mostly seem to be the sponsored people who have to perform at the higher levels, hence are never warned about it.  

In fact a few years ago at the Nats we noticed the group before us had several and our group did also. We asked the RO about it. He first said that it wasn't happening. One of our squad showed him like 6 video clips. His reply was, "Well, if they have an AD I guess we will have to act." My friend said, "Yeah, nice rule." 

Late in our squad, however, they did warn a guy - about a 15 year old kid shooting with his Grandpa. 

Make whatever rules you want. Somebody will always game the stage and get away with it.

PS

When they show SC on the shooting shows on TV you can usually find somebody moving with a finger on the trigger.

Maybe that's why so many want Outer Limits removed as a stage?

 

[zzt]

I haven't found that to be the case, at least in the area I shoot in.  At big matches the ROs are specifically told to stay ahead of the shooter on OL.  They warned shooters in the MB that fingers should be clearly outside the trigger guard, or DQ.  

 

Even at local matches, compliance is 100%.  The finger issue I see most often if when clearing a jam or correcting a malfunction.  Fingers are not usually on the trigger (I'd call a DQ), but they are not clearly out.  I warn them.

[Joe4d]

Well now we are having to think for the shooter again.. I see same issue in SC as USPSA, in that negligent discharges arnt unsafe. Always seemed asinine to me.  Guy could be moving box to box light a round off, jump out of his skin,, stop , look at RO,,, But then continue,,, and just gets a foot fault when he lies and says he was aiming at a target. Long as said round lands between 10 foot from his foot and top of berm.
Buy yeh Outer Limits doesnt belong, plenty of other games sprinters can play.

[Thomas H]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:42 AM, bigdawgbeav said:

If a shooter is stepping into the center box and putting their finger in the guard that isn't a DQ.  Once they are in the box they are no longer moving.  If it is a truly fast shooter they might not have the 2nd foot in, but as long as that isn't touching the ground they are "in the box".  Movement is defined as taking MORE than 1 step.  If a shooter starts moving their finger into the guard as they are making that last step into the box that is perfectly legal.

 

This new rule just means that a shooter can move to the center box with their finger in the guard as long as they are aiming at the targets.  zzt makes a good point that even if the shooter is pointing the gun towards the targets if they look down they are no longer aiming.  

 

Going back to my previous statement I, personally, will keep removing my finger.  I don't need to try and game the system and possibly slip, trip etc.  

 

Regarding the part in bold:  You literally are using the word "stepping" to describe what is happening here, and even better, said "stepping" is part of a multi-step movement.  Movement is indeed defined as taking more than 1 step---and your LAST two steps (the step into the box, and then bringing your other foot off the ground to also put it in the box) is literally the end of a series of steps.  (Which is definitely "more than one step.")

 

"If a shooter starts moving their finger into the guard as they are making that last step into the box that is perfectly legal."

No, that was literally a DQ, under the old rule.  No one would call it, though, which is why the rule needed to be fixed.

 

Which is why it is good that the rule was changed to this, because now it ISN'T a DQ.

 

"This new rule just means that a shooter can move to the center box with their finger in the guard as long as they are aiming at the targets"

Ok.....so what is the problem?  How is this an issue?  If a shot goes off, it is in a safe direction (they were aiming at the target, after all, and merely get a procedural for a foot fault.  If people want to do something that makes them slower, that's completely their choice.  (Moving while aiming is flat-out slower than moving.)

 

I guess I'm not understanding the issue here----literally, people can now prepare to fire (and even fire) while their body is in motion to/into the center box on Outer Limits, which is what everyone has been doing in the first place.  (And what everyone SHOULD be doing.)  And now the rules won't say they should be DQed for it.

 

How is this a problem or an issue? 

 

Dr. Phil wrote:  "Every club where I have shot SC there have been those who never remove their finger when they move from box to box on Outer Limits."

Sounds like that club's ROs need someone to mention that to them so they can start doing their job.  The clubs I shoot at would call that a DQ.

 

Joe4d said:  "Guy could be moving box to box light a round off, jump out of his skin,, stop , look at RO,,, But then continue,,, and just gets a foot fault when he lies and says he was aiming at a target."

Just because the shooter says it, doesn't mean it is true.  If the RO is noticing that the finger is in the trigger guard, they'll also notice whether or not the person is aiming through the sights/optic, AND in the direction of the target.  If they weren't, then it is a DQ.  Fairly straightfoward.  If the shooter wants to argue, they can submit an arb.  (Which they will lose.)

 

"Buy yeh Outer Limits doesnt belong, plenty of other games sprinters can play. "

 

No one needs to sprint to move laterally 6 feet quickly, particularly in the situation of Outer Limits.  The people who do well, move smoothly immediately after finishing their second shot, and start shooting immediately upon creating a presence in the center box.  Sprinting isn't at all what it looks like.

 

 

[Almo]

Maybe the question we should be asking is why even have the rule to begin with in Steel Challenge.  If you're pointing the gun in a safe direction, does it really matter if your finger is in the trigger guard where the only movement is about three steps while aiming at the next target.  It seems USPSA is dictating Steel Challenge rules where they don't apply.  It's a little different than in USPSA, where you might be running 20 yards.  By the way, I always try to remember to take my finger out of the trigger guard just to be in compliance.

[Dr. Phil]

I always remove my finger also, but I keep the gun at eye level as much as possible. 

Like I said prior, I think this "new rule" will be the cause of DQ for some shooters. Many have not trained to remove their finger and I don't believe they will be able to learn it on the run.

I think those who want to will usually get away with it because many (most?) ROs follow the shooter, not lead into the next bow and they usually time the last shots from inside rather than outside the shooter.

At least in my experience.

[bigdawgbeav]

On 3/4/2023 at 9:39 PM, Thomas H said:

 

Regarding the part in bold:  You literally are using the word "stepping" to describe what is happening here, and even better, said "stepping" is part of a multi-step movement.  Movement is indeed defined as taking more than 1 step---and your LAST two steps (the step into the box, and then bringing your other foot off the ground to also put it in the box) is literally the end of a series of steps.  (Which is definitely "more than one step.")

 

"If a shooter starts moving their finger into the guard as they are making that last step into the box that is perfectly legal."

No, that was literally a DQ, under the old rule.  No one would call it, though, which is why the rule needed to be fixed.

 

 

 

 

First off, usually all of this happens so fast it's hard to watch it all unless it's blatant.  And yes I did say "stepping", referring to that last step into the center box.  Once that foot hits the ground inside the center box then they are no longer moving.  Doesn't matter about the other foot.  As long as it's not touching the ground.  So that is literally NOT a DQ.  Foot in box = no longer moving.  Foot about to hit the ground in the box = not MORE than one step, that A step.  Under the previous rule as long as their finger was outside the guard when they took MORE than one step it's fine.  

 

The new rule clearly makes this discussion moot.

[Hoops]

Rimfire Rifle.  I seem to recall a past clarification (by SCSA) that stowing/securing carbines in 3-gun style carts (and/or modified strollers) or 4 wheeled carts, was to be considered "cased".  

 

[Flatland Shooter]

On 3/7/2023 at 3:36 PM, Hoops said:

Rimfire Rifle.  I seem to recall a past clarification (by SCSA) that stowing/securing carbines in 3-gun style carts (and/or modified strollers) or 4 wheeled carts, was to be considered "cased".  

 

I hope so.  At our local Steel Challenge matches probably 9 out of 10 competitors are using carts.

[Thomas H]

On 3/5/2023 at 9:20 AM, Almo said:

 If you're pointing the gun in a safe direction, does it really matter if your finger is in the trigger guard where the only movement is about three steps while aiming at the next target.

 

Yes.  Because if they don't have the control to have their finger out of the trigger guard while moving, then it is unlikely that they are managing to also keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.  I can't think of a single competition type (or firearms instructor, for that matter) that doesn't agree with "finger out of the trigger guard while moving unless you are actively shooting/aiming."

 

 

On 3/5/2023 at 1:31 PM, Dr. Phil said:

Like I said prior, I think this "new rule" will be the cause of DQ for some shooters. Many have not trained to remove their finger and I don't believe they will be able to learn it on the run.

 

It should be a DQ.  After all, under the old rule, it was ALSO a DQ. 

 

Original rule: 10.3.7 (DQ offense): Moving (taking more than one step) with finger inside of trigger guard.

 

If someone was moving with their finger in the trigger guard, it should have been a DQ, period.  That's always been true.

 

On 3/5/2023 at 8:56 PM, bigdawgbeav said:

Once that foot hits the ground inside the center box then they are no longer moving.  Doesn't matter about the other foot.  As long as it's not touching the ground.  So that is literally NOT a DQ.  Foot in box = no longer moving.  Foot about to hit the ground in the box = not MORE than one step, that A step. 

 

That's not how that works.  Literally, even once the first foot hits, there is still movement (unless you are claiming that people freeze once their foot hits).  We don't define movement as "more than one step after the part we are calling movement."  If they are taking more than one step, then the entire process after that until they halt (which is defined as "stop moving their feet") is called "movement." 

 

Everyone can see it, everyone knows it.  This, again, is why the rule was changed because of course people were starting to aim as they hit the new box, and were technically supposed to be DQed under the old rule. 

 

The parts in bold, above, are incorrect.

 

And again, BECAUSE they are incorrect, the rule needed to be updated so that people weren't doing things that should have gotten them DQed under the old rules, though they weren't actual safety issues.

 

On 3/7/2023 at 3:36 PM, Hoops said:

Rimfire Rifle.  I seem to recall a past clarification (by SCSA) that stowing/securing carbines in 3-gun style carts (and/or modified strollers) or 4 wheeled carts, was to be considered "cased".  

 

 

Not exactly, though close the same thing.  The main difference between "in a cart" and "in a case" shows up in 8.3.8.7, where it ends with "The muzzle of the rifle must point in a safe direction while in the cart."  In a case, we don't care about the direction, but in a cart, the safe direction is still important.  So...carts that carry the rifle horizontally (and not in a case) aren't going to work, but ones that hold the rifle vertically down will work fine.

 

We get a lot of carts, too, especially in matches where they can shoot multiple guns on the same squad.  All the ones that don't use cases use vertical carry carts, many of the ones that use cases have horizontal carry carts.

[Hoops]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

not exactly, though close the same thing.  The main difference between "in a cart" and "in a case" shows up in 8.3.8.7, where it ends with "The muzzle of the rifle must point in a safe direction while in the cart."  In a case, we don't care about the direction, but in a cart, the safe direction is still important.  So...carts that carry the rifle horizontally (and not in a case) aren't going to work, but ones that hold the rifle vertically down will work fine.

 

We get a lot of carts, too, especially in matches where they can shoot multiple guns on the same squad.  All the ones that don't use cases use vertical carry carts, many of the ones that use cases have horizontal carry carts.

I rarely get a stiff neck about stuff, But If that is the position, this will create lot of negative reaction from people, especially if they were to be DQ’d over a cart.  Carts are not cheap and 100’s of thousands of dollars have been invested by shooters and by companies that sell them.  And, they are perfectly safe. 
 

I’m betting there will be plenty of carts at the WSSC in a few weeks and that no one will be DQ’d as a result.

 

I personally had an email in 2021 from USPSA/SCSA that agreed carts were not prohibited as long a secured and flagged.  I doubt anything has happened across the country safety wise that would have specifically prompted a rule to prohibit them.

 

Zack Jones….if you are reading this I would suggest a phone call to USPSA and a subsequent post here before the WSSC match.  Just a thought.

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, Hoops said:

I rarely get a stiff neck about stuff, But If that is the position, this will create lot of negative reaction from people, especially if they were to be DQ’d over a cart.  Carts are not cheap and 100’s of thousands of dollars have been invested by shooters and by companies that sell them.  And, they are perfectly safe. 
 

I’m betting there will be plenty of carts at the WSSC in a few weeks and that no one will be DQ’d as a result.

 

I personally had an email in 2021 from USPSA/SCSA that agreed carts were not prohibited as long a secured and flagged.  I doubt anything has happened across the country safety wise that would have specifically prompted a rule to prohibit them.

 

Zack Jones….if you are reading this I would suggest a phone call to USPSA and a subsequent post here before the WSSC match.  Just a thought.

Every cart I have ever seen that had mounts for an uncased gun was situated to point the gun mostly down, so as to avoid pointing it at people. This doesn't seem like rocket surgery, and I hope your neck is OK. I don't know of anyone who has spent money on a cart to hold their gun so it points at people, and if I did,  I would ask them to fix their cart if they brought it my match.