Is shooting Limited still cool?

[waktasz]

No way on earth they make it anything but Minor only

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, waktasz said:

No way on earth they make it anything but Minor only

 

I want to believe this, but I've also seen some nroi rulings lately

[Racinready300ex]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I want to believe this, but I've also seen some nroi rulings lately

 

At least it's not really up to him, the BOD is the one that votes to approve it. 

[usmc1974]

If LO is scored minor, are magwells and thumb rest Important enough to change categories ?  As for Single action only triggers, triggers today On striker fired guns are pretty great. I don't believe USPSA Can support another Category based on this alone. It would not be enough to make me change categories. Just saying.

Edited February 24, 2023 by usmc1974

[motosapiens]

On 2/24/2023 at 2:35 PM, usmc1974 said:

If LO is scored minor, are magwells and thumb rest Important enough to change categories ?  As for Single action only triggers, triggers today On striker fired guns are pretty great. I don't believe USPSA Can support another Category based on this alone. It would not be enough to make me change categories. Just saying.

not to be pedantic, but you are talking about divisions. for you to change categories, you would have to have a sex change, get older, get an LE job, etc.....

 

Anyway, striker-fired triggers don't all suck now, but DA/SA triggers are better, and real SA 2011 triggers are hella better. Is that enough to make a difference to a paid professional? Of course not. If you pay me, I will swear up and down my striker trigger is the equivalent of any 2011, but you and I both know that everyone with a job will choose a 2011 in any division where it is allowed.

 

I think the most sensible way forward is as follows:

1) introduce a provisional minor-only LO division, with magwells and whatever.

2) gather data, anecdotes, and opinions to see how LO shooters do against CO in the overall.

3) assuming that most people feel like shadow 2's and tanfos can compete straight up against 2011's,  adjust the rules of CO to be more forgiving to less modified guns, and more reflective of actual real-world duty (and carry) rigs (for example, 15 rds, 40 oz weight limit with magazine, no magwell, etc...)

 

Then we would have a racy optic division, and a pretty darned practical optic division that many cops could shoot with their duty gear, and many civilians could shoot with their carry gear or home defense gun, as long as they carry a normalish compact like a p01 or whatever s#!tty glock is that size, and not a pocket gun). I would go straight to LO with my shadow and extended mags, and feel good about it. But I would probably give a more practical CO a look in the future.

 

Even if they didn't shoot CO with their actual carry gun, it would be plausible to shoot with a slightlier racier version of your carry gun. I dunno. Maybe I'm the only one who enjoys shooting practical guns from time to time. When I shoot IDPA once or twice a year, I use the same gun, mags and holster that I carry when I take mrs moto out to dinner, or go grocery shopping.

Edited February 26, 2023 by motosapiens

[usmc1974]

17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

not to be pedantic, but you are talking about divisions. for you to change categories, you would have to have a sex change, get older, get an LE job, etc.....

 

Anyway, striker-fired triggers don't all suck now, but DA/SA triggers are better, and real SA 2011 triggers are hella better. Is that enough to make a difference to a paid professional? Of course not. If you pay me, I will swear up and down my striker trigger is the equivalent of any 2011, but you and I both know that everyone with a job will choose a 2011 in any division where it is allowed.

 

I think the most sensible way forward is as follows:

1) introduce a provisional minor-only LO division, with magwells and whatever.

2) gather data, anecdotes, and opinions to see how LO shooters do against CO in the overall.

3) assuming that most people feel like shadow 2's and tanfos can compete straight up against 2011's,  adjust the rules of CO to be more forgiving to less modified guns, and more reflective of actual real-world duty (and carry) rigs (for example, 15 rds, 40 oz weight limit with magazine, no magwell, etc...)

 

Then we would have a racy optic division, and a pretty darned practical optic division that many cops could shoot with their duty gear, and many civilians could shoot with their carry gear or home defense gun, as long as they carry a normalish compact like a p01 or whatever s#!tty glock is that size, and not a pocket gun). I would go straight to LO with my shadow and extended mags, and feel good about it. But I would probably give a more practical CO a look in the future.

 

Even if they didn't shoot CO with their actual carry gun, it would be plausible to shoot with a slightlier racier version of your carry gun. I dunno. Maybe I'm the only one who enjoys shooting practical guns from time to time. When I shoot IDPA once or twice a year, I use the same gun, mags and holster that I carry when I take mrs moto out to dinner, or go grocery shopping.

How about I send you a roll of toilet paper? 

[deerslayer]

33 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I think the most sensible way forward is as follows:

1) introduce a provisional minor-only LO division, with magwells and whatever.

2) gather data, anecdotes, and opinions to see how LO shooters do against CO in the overall.

3) assuming that most people feel like shadow 2's and tanfos can compete straight up against 2011's,  adjust the rules of CO to be more forgiving to less modified guns, and more reflective of actual real-world duty (and carry) rigs (for example, 15 rds, 40 oz weight limit with magazine, no magwell, etc...)

 

Then we would have a racy optic division, and a pretty darned practical optic division that many cops could shoot with their duty gear, and many civilians could shoot with their carry gear or home defense gun, as long as they carry a normalish compact like a p01 or whatever s#!tty glock is that size, and not a pocket gun). I would go straight to LO with my shadow and extended mags, and feel good about it. But I would probably give a more practical CO a look in the future.

 

Even if they didn't shoot CO with their actual carry gun, it would be plausible to shoot with a slightlier racier version of your carry gun. I dunno. Maybe I'm the only one who enjoys shooting practical guns from time to time. When I shoot IDPA once or twice a year, I use the same gun, mags and holster that I carry when I take mrs moto out to dinner, or go grocery shopping.

This would make sense.  There are enough dot shooters to support two dot minor divisons, as long as they are somewhat different.  Creating LO (assuming minor only) and maintaining current CO rules would be dumb.  

Edited February 26, 2023 by deerslayer

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

How about I send you a roll of toilet paper? 

That would be great. I'll PM you my address. Appreciate the kind thoughts....

[usmc1974]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

That would be great. I'll PM you my address. Appreciate the kind thoughts....

Will you be sure to do that because I really do believe you are 1 self righteous pc of crap . And I've been around long enough to recognize 1

Edited February 26, 2023 by usmc1974

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, usmc1974 said:

Will you be sure to do that because I really do believe you are 1 self righteous pc of crap . And I've been around long enough to recognize 1

appreciate the observation. it seems clear that we must have miscommunicated somehow. as a fellow veteran i probably tried to make a joke that wasn’t funny. please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.

Edited February 26, 2023 by motosapiens

[usmc1974]

40 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

appreciate the observation. it seems clear that we must have miscommunicated somehow. as a fellow veteran i probably tried to make a joke that wasn’t funny. please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding.

OK, As a vet and an old LEO from the sheriff department. Sometimes I leave my sense of humor in my other shirt. Thanks

[ddc]

On 2/24/2023 at 2:35 PM, usmc1974 said:

snip... I don't believe USPSA Can support another category ... snip

 

In what way does USPSA support a "category" (i.e. division) and why should we care?

 

Hypothetical: Let's say there were 15 divisions. And then let's say that at most matches the same 5 divisions had zero or a very limited number of entries.

 

In what way does that hurt you or me or USPSA? Why do I care that USPSA would have 5 divisions that hardly anybody shoots? Personally I couldn't care less. 

 

If someone enters one of those divisions I would just chuckle and think that they were either a new shooter or someone looking for a participation trophy. Sort of like L10 is today. Is that really that big a deal? 

 

[Boomstick303]

14 minutes ago, ddc said:

Sort of like L10 is today. Is that really that big a deal? 

 

It is only a big deal if USPSA tries to create a National event that loses money based on those "Low Participation" divisions.  That is the only place it matters.  Otherwise, it does not.  

 

Low CAP divisions are dead or are in the process of dying.  The board should STOP placating what seems to be 4-5% (if that) of the membership?  I do not care if they keep them around, but they should create a classic division that includes all of these "Low Participation" divisions into one division and create some sort of equality between all of the Low Cap divisions.  Not only does this keep that increasingly shrinking part of the membership happy but it also gives them more people to compete with on a match to match basis.  

 

 

 

 

[shred]

People that want to be the actual 'winner' of something want enough competitors to achieve a valid result.

 

10-round divisions are stuck because the vocal minority of 10-round-staters keep demanding them.  Yet when you ask, Open and CO are more popular than Production or L10 in each of those states.  If there's an issue between people with grandfathered mags and those without, we have a rule for that; 3.3.1.

 

To answer the 'but when I go out of state..." line, make the new, higher-capacity limit something that can be met by over the counter mags that are easily bought, borrowed or rented in free states with a very high chance of working 100%.

 

If the problem is ROs can't count that high, we could invent some sort of electronic gizmo that logs each shot and the time it happened that the RO could carry around and check.  Even better, one that records video as well for later review if necessary.

 

[Darqusoull13]

Limited Major (40) is as close to 3 gun (irons) fun levels of pistol shooting as I've experienced in USPSA. It's insanely enjoyable. A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want for locals is also spectacular practice for 3 gun (irons). 

Is it cool? Absolutely. 

 

Is it popular? Not like it once was. 

Could it grow in popularity again? I think so. With Irons being separated out Nationally, CO being early in the year and Open being paired with PCC I think a lot of guys that used to run Limited will come back to it at the high end. With more major players making power factor ammo it's easy to switch to limited for fun for a while without the investment in a caliber for reloading. 40 is relatively easy to load as long as you know you have access to a roll or push through size. 

[deerslayer]

18 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

40 is relatively easy to load as long as you know you have access to a roll or push through size. 

 

Agreed.

 

I don't understand or necessarily believe the "nobody wants to mess with loading .40 argument", as if it's hard to load.  If somebody doesn't want to add a second caliber I get it, but I would rather load .40, mainly because I encounter a lot less oddball brass.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, deerslayer said:

 

Agreed.

 

I don't understand or necessarily believe the "nobody wants to mess with loading .40 argument", as if it's hard to load.  If somebody doesn't want to add a second caliber I get it, but I would rather load .40, mainly because I encounter a lot less oddball brass.

agreed. 40 takes less physical effort to resize, the bullets are bigger and easier to handle, and pretty much all the brass is fine (unlike 9mm). With ginex primers, I do pick out the s&b and cbc brass, because those are so hard to seat with those primers, but everything seems work ok with normal primers.

[deerslayer]

19 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

agreed. 40 takes less physical effort to resize, the bullets are bigger and easier to handle, and pretty much all the brass is fine (unlike 9mm). With ginex primers, I do pick out the s&b and cbc brass, because those are so hard to seat with those primers, but everything seems work ok with normal primers.

I have almost mastered the art of feeling an S&B case before seating a primer.  Almost

[RJH]

I don't think it is any more difficult to load, just more expensive and range chickening the brass sucks. I wasn't even going to pick up 9 brass the other day cause I have so much but it was basically in a pile so I was able to scoop up a match worth of brass in about 2 square feet and there was another match or two worth of brass in the same spot. 

 

When I shoot 40 or 45 I got to hunt all over for it and I'm lucky if I get half a match of brass back. Used to 40 was easy to get a decent amount of your brass back, but not so much anymore. And I actually want my 40 and 45 brass back. With nine if it's hot or cold or rainy I probably won't even pick it up, if I do that with 40 or 45 my pile starts to dwindle really quick 

[Darqusoull13]

36 minutes ago, RJH said:

I don't think it is any more difficult to load, just more expensive and range chickening the brass sucks. I wasn't even going to pick up 9 brass the other day cause I have so much but it was basically in a pile so I was able to scoop up a match worth of brass in about 2 square feet and there was another match or two worth of brass in the same spot. 

 

When I shoot 40 or 45 I got to hunt all over for it and I'm lucky if I get half a match of brass back. Used to 40 was easy to get a decent amount of your brass back, but not so much anymore. And I actually want my 40 and 45 brass back. With nine if it's hot or cold or rainy I probably won't even pick it up, if I do that with 40 or 45 my pile starts to dwindle really quick 

Get some red Dykem and mix that in with your lube on brass before you size. Open guys have been doing it forever and it works really, really well. 

I bought mixed brass for a few years when it was cheap. I gave pops all the 45, kept the 9 and 40 knowing eventually I'd run a 40 in limited. Ended up with a massive supply of 40. Even nowadays a bunch of guys just get factory 40 and leave the used brass on the ground at matches. 

[shred]

33 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Get some red Dykem and mix that in with your lube on brass before you size. Open guys have been doing it forever and it works really, really well. 

...As long as you are cool with having red-tinged hands and anything they touch after the match from shooting, loading mags and picking up brass.

 

[RJH]

40 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Get some red Dykem and mix that in with your lube on brass before you size. Open guys have been doing it forever and it works really, really well. 

I bought mixed brass for a few years when it was cheap. I gave pops all the 45, kept the 9 and 40 knowing eventually I'd run a 40 in limited. Ended up with a massive supply of 40. Even nowadays a bunch of guys just get factory 40 and leave the used brass on the ground at matches. 

 

Are you saying so I can identify my brass? Cuz if I've got to pick out my three pieces of 40 out of the six total pieces of 40 I find on a stage, while sifting through 400 pieces of 9 mm, that makes it even worse. And I don't know about a bunch of guys shooting 40 and leaving it on the ground, at least not here. You're lucky if there's two or three guys shooting 40 at a match of 40 people at this point. They're easy to tell because they're the three guys out there that look like range chickens

 

I know because if I shoot 45 I'm out there with them

 

 

It's crazy because 5 years ago if there were 40 people at a match in my area at least half of them were shooting 40 it seemed like. But Time Marches on and the future is now, in the future is 9 mm

[zzt]

40sw is super easy to load for.  If you use a Lee FCD as your crimp die, you don't have to roll size or push through size.  9mm is a PITA.

 

When I switched from Limited to Open I stayed with 40.  40 Open is so much easier, flatter and softer than 9mm major, because you have so much more case capacity.  I never bought the lower capacity argument.  You had 20 in a mag for Limited.  You have the same for Open.  Stage plan is the same.  Even for the 170, 26 is just fine.  Even now with 29 in the mag, I'll only use it for 20-21 round stages.  Any more than that and I'm planning on reloading.

 

If anyone offered a one-piece barrel/comp in 40 when I built my first Open gun, I'd still be shooting 40.

 

If LO major becomes a thing, I'll shoot it.  I already have the gun with slide mounted optic, and it's a 40.

[Joe4d]

40 does seem to be dropping off.  Although even buying used brass over all it isnt that expensive.
Used to be 40 was used by an awful lot of folks getting taxpayer funded ammo..So was really cheap and easy to come by if you had a few connections or shot at the same range  the agencies used.
I still think its the best gamer round. can go from minor to major to near 10mm levels if you need it .
Never used or needed a roll or push through sizer.. 

[CC3D]

My biggest issue with shooting limited is the brass. I dont like paying for stuff I can get for free, but I find myself not being able to find enough range .40 brass to sustain my shooting and need to buy a box of it here and there. Not the end of the world, but much less convenient than loading 9mm.