9mm Explosion

[HesedTech]

2 hours ago, OptimiStick said:

I don't think crimping really helps much with neck tension.

The subject of crimping and setback has been debated well here on the forum. Set back comes from not enough neck tension due to case sizing and is why many use U dies for their process. 

 

1 hour ago, shred said:

You don't get brass going all over unless there's space for it to go into.

True, but the destruction of the brass exceeds what would be considered normal for an out of battery discharge.  

 

14 hours ago, 1911in9mm said:

My PDP will drop the striker well OOB, so much so I rarely ever shoot reloads in it.  

I know many who shoot reloads in Walthers with zero issues. If someone is having and issue with their reloads in any gun then there needs to be some work done on their process. 

 

As a side note, I heard the whole reason for the Walther chamber is to improve accuracy. Good idea, just doesn't prove to actually improve it in a measurable way over other guns.

[GMM50]

On 1/11/2023 at 11:59 AM, HesedTech said:

 

 

 

Serious? We must be looking at a different picture. You must mean Muay's kaboom. 

No signs of high pressure on the primer.  Pressure high enough to rip open the case if nothing is supporting that case.

[HesedTech]

35 minutes ago, GMM50 said:

Pressure high enough to rip open the case if nothing is supporting that case.

Yes that will happen, but...

 

35 minutes ago, GMM50 said:

No signs of high pressure on the primer.

which picture are you commenting about? The OP has total destruction beyond an unsupported discharge.

 

Here's a good picture of an out of battery discharge, notice the primer condition. The OP had something else happen, overcharge combined with not being fully in chamber.

 

 

Now compare to a known over charge:

 

 

Looks like the OP's brass.

 

For the OP the question needed to be answered is how to prevent a repeat of what happened. Was it only an overcharge, combination OC with OB and if so how did the gun fire OB? 

 

Added:

 

I spent more time looking at the OP's brass and destroyed extractor and then compared to pictures of the Walther barrel with a fully seated round. 

1. The OP's round was most likely almost fully seated in the chamber. We know this by the Walther chamber step markings on the brass.

2. It is highly likely the case failure began at the feed ramp where the case is least supported and the propagated around.

3. The damage is severe, with case splitting, hammering/flow of the brass against the breech face, primer ejected and the pocket severely damaged and distorted, and the extractor broken off, all evidence of an overcharged case. OB Discharges normally do not have the same extensive damage.

4. Walthers do not seem to have a history of OB discharges.

 

Best conclusion? From what I see in this limited space and lack of detail; the leading cause of the failure was an overcharge.

Edited January 12, 2023 by HesedTech

[Miranda]

ya kno...
it takes a lot of knowledge, thinking and careful study
to use a few photos to decide what is the cause.

 

I am going to state that HesedTech seems to be familiar with the type of weapon
so if he says the markings near the case mouth mean the pistol was in battery
I will make that assumption.

That leaves us with case cracks and over charging.

this is a tough call for me...because what I see in the photos look like
oxidized cracks and then fresh metal tears.

 

so then I have to wonder,  chicken or egg.
I do not know the history of the failed case.

One scenario is that the ammo was over charged by some amount
and held up in firing and started cracks and after
a couple more times of that treatment it finally let loose.

 

second scenario is a lucky coincidence where a cracked case got a small overcharge.

I have found some cases with cracks at the bottom...
because they were tumbled in SS pin media, (I purchased the cases...)
I could see the cracks.
My dry tumble cases are too dark to see such cracks.

 

so beat-up brittle work hardened brass or a exceptional mistake.
hard call to make.

 

miranda

[Miranda]

On 1/11/2023 at 8:58 PM, Cherokeewind said:

How much pressure is required to cause brass to "flow" as it appears to have done here?

I googled

elastic deformation of brass

got

For brass alloy, the stress at which plastic deformation begins is 345 MPa and the modulus of elasticity is 103 Gpa.

 

that 345 mpa to psi  is   50038 ... psi

I am not certain that is the answer to your question

the number I recall is lower and I have no idea idea where the memory came from.

 

the pressure clearly exceeded the ability of the brass to hold.

hmmmmm

 

miranda

[RGA]

For comparisons sake I added 2 pics of factory S&B cases fired in my Q5. The 3rd pic is from the OP BlackApache's case failure. It looks like I see 2 ring markings from the stepped chamber. Considering that it concerns a reloaded case this could indicate the case was not fully chambered the 2nd firing.

Edited January 13, 2023 by RGA

[RudyVey]

5 hours ago, RGA said:

For comparisons sake I added 2 pics of factory S&B cases fired in my Q5. The 3rd pic is from the OP BlackApache's case failure. It looks like I see 2 ring markings from the stepped chamber. Considering that it concerns a reloaded case this could indicate the case was not fully chambered the 2nd firing.

I shoot a lot of reloads in my Walther , the ring is normally very thin and fine.

[HesedTech]

6 hours ago, RGA said:

It looks like I see 2 ring markings from the stepped chamber. Considering that it concerns a reloaded case this could indicate the case was not fully chambered the 2nd firing.

It could also indicate as the round went "kaboom!" it began it's slide backward.

 

I really don't get why many want to disregard an overcharged round here. 

 

Here's what the OP needs to do; fix the gun and pay attention or change to their reloading process to prevent this from happening again. Yes it's fun to share opinions about someone's problem and then try to solve it. Also, we can learn from this experience so it doesn't happen to us.

Edited January 13, 2023 by HesedTech

[RGA]

Just trying to help. Have a nice weekend!

 

[Jim Watson]

On 1/12/2023 at 2:09 PM, HesedTech said:

Here's a good picture of an out of battery discharge, notice the primer condition.

 

The main condition I see is a firing pin indention right in the middle of the primer.

Hard to see how you can get "out of battery" enough to expose case sidewall without the Browning pattern barrel tipping down enough to take the firing pin to the edge of the primer if not completely off of it.

 

I have a design for a testbed but my FLG may be too retired to make it for me.

[Miranda]

hi hesedtech,
I do agree the case was overcharged.
(which firing was over the line is a question)

What the discussion and pointing out facts and meanings
is to carefully understand how this case failure came to pass.

 

the three usual suspects are
overcharge, outta battery, and case cracks.

 

The one I want it to be is OOB. Because that one means I have nothing to worry about.
Add that I am suspicious of my wanting it to be that failure.

 

Your arguments for it not being OOB are well founded.
Others are not in agreement on that point.  After all,
they look at the details and see different.

 

For the person looking to avoid case failures...
make sure of your cases are crack free before you fill 'em.
make sure you are not overcharging.
look at your fired brass for over pressure tell tales.

 

I think that case was cracked before it was reloaded.
Also it easily could have been overcharged at that same time.
how can any of us be certain past that point?

 

both of those ... considerations? can point to a pattern of overcharging.
this time the question is how many times can you run that pressure
before the case fails in service.

 

The OP didn't mention any details of how many reloading done or source
or inspections done...
gick.  I been known to reload without clean and inspect.

so this thread has me re-thinking my reloading process
It never hurts to understand why one is inspecting and
checking powder weights.(again...)

 

and I no longer begrudge the cases lost to inspections.

 

miranda

[GrumpyOne]

My guess is OC, not OOB. As stated, Walthers are not known for firing OOB, not saying that it couldn't happen, as even pigs can fly for short time if you throw them out of a plane....but, over charges happen much more frequently.

[Farmer]

I’ll throw another fly in the soup. Case was overcharged, bullet didn’t seat fully and was jammed into the lands holding it slightly OOB but not enough to not fire. Or set the bullet back into the case. Either way a bad deal and glad no body parts were harmed. 

[1911in9mm]

To my understanding, OOB doesn’t necessarily mean the cartridge WASN’T completely in the chamber.  It can mean the fully chambered cartridge inside the barrel hadn’t reached battery.  My definition of battery, fully chambered cartridge inside barrel fully seated/locked with slide.  
Why OOB becomes problematic, it allows the slide to start reciprocation/recoiling before peak pressure has subsided and the bullet has left the barrel.  
Well why is that problematic?  Because it starts stripping the BRASS casing out of a STEEL chamber that’s designed to contain peak chamber pressures.  Brass casings just hold primers, powder, and bullets.  They don’t contain 30K psi pressures or greater very well.  
Is it possible or even probable it was a high pressure event?  Most certainly, could be from any number of reasons, over charged, double charge, set back, grossly over crimped, etc.   

But as we know guys shoot 9 major quite regularly at highly unknown pressures much higher than standard 9mm and don’t blow cases up, so long as they’re fully contained in a chamber FULLY in battery.  
Reason I don’t believe it was a double charge?  The polymer grip looked to be mostly intact.  I would have expected much more polymer damage or cracking if it were a double charge.  Would I believe it was into the NATO or +P range pressure wise, certainly so?   
Thats just my understanding of the term OOB, hell maybe I’m entirely wrong.  

[9x45]

Buddy of mine recently blew up a G17 loading a 147gr Bayou over 3.3 grains of TiteGroup on a Dillon 550. Well he ended up pulling the handle twice while looking at the TV, KaBoom. However a 147 gr will easily fit into a case with 6.6 grains of TG. 

 

OP, what press where you loading on? That's the reason to use a low density high volume powder on a manual indexing press that occupies at least 70% volume so it would spill over on a double. I run a 125gr HiTek over 4.0 grs of TG on my Square Deal, but use 4.6grs of BE-86 on my 550.

Edited January 14, 2023 by 9x45

[GrumpyOne]

1 hour ago, 9x45 said:

Buddy of mine recently blew up a G17 ...

Whoa...hold on there...You have a Buddy? 

 

Just kidding. Glad to see you are still alive and kicking!

[Knight85]

Hope no one was hurt ?

[Knight85]

Hope no one get hurt ?

[9x45]

No one got hurt. Just a bruised shooting hand. Thanks Grump, just haven't been here in a while.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by 9x45

[Cherokeewind]

Ouch!!  That hurts way over here!!

[shred]

Already said it, but there is no way the slide was locked in battery when that went off.  There's just nowhere the brass could go like that unless the chamber is gone too. 

 

We double-triple-charged a round and shot it behind a squib in the barrel and it didn't do that.

 

[Miranda]

and there we have it,

two people who are pretty sure and use experience for the conclusions they have.

 

I have no tie breaker to offer

but I would look hard at any possible cause for firing OOB.

 

miranda