PCC unsafe gun handling rules question

[Johnny_Chimpo]

Yesterday I DQ'd a PCC shooter for trying to make ready before told to, but now that I replay the whole thing in my head and review the rules I think I should have DQ'd him as soon as he uncased his rifle.

 

He wants to unbag the gun but tells me there's someone downrange of him.  I don't remember if I asked the guy who was downrange of us to move back of if he overheard and moved on his own.  Once no one is in front of him shooter unzips the case, while it's pointed downrange (not at the side berm), pulls out the gun, goes to the stage and does the thing I DQ'd him for.

 

Now that I review the rules I think I should have DQ'd him for uncasing while not under RO supervision.

 

Here's the relevant rule

Quote

5.2.1.7 Carbines must be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction directly into and within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop. PCCs can also be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart under the direct supervision of a range officer with muzzle pointing at the backstop.  Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a cart will result in a DQ per 10.5.19.

 

Shooter did not have PCC pointed at side berm at all AND

Shooter did not have PCC within 2 yards of the backstop AND

Shooter was not under direct supervision of RO when he uncased while pointing at the backstop

 

What say ye?

[Gary Johnson]

Stop, ULSC, hand the shooter a gift card to Dairy Queen and call the RM.

[Sarge]

Seems pretty clear to me that he violated the rules

[Boomstick303]

DQ.

 

They way I interpret the rules are as follows:

 

49 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

Carbines must be case/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart with the muzzle pointed in a safe direction directly into and within 2 yards of a side berm or backstop.

 

Essentially allows the shooter to case/uncase their PCC without the supervision of the RO to get ready when the shooter is on deck.  Obviously they would not be able case/uncase against the backstop when the bay is active.  

 

I am sure you are aware but for others 10.5.19 does not allow for any other gun handling except to case/uncase.

"All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer."

 

49 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

PCCs can also be cased/uncased or removed/replaced on a cart under the direct supervision of a range officer with muzzle pointing at the backstop.

 

Essentially this is when the shooter brings his PPC cased to the line when they are ready to shoot.  I see this as a pretty common occurrence at indoor matches since there is no side berm.   They are not able to uncase until the make ready command is given by the RO.  Unless they are within 2 yards of the backstop, which would be a super rare instance like if the start position was at the front of the bay.  

 

From what you described he should have been DQ'd the second the PCC was uncased without being within 2 yards of the side berm or backstop.  

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

From what you described he should have been DQ'd the second the PCC was uncased without being within 2 yards of the side berm or backstop. 

 

That's what I thought so too after the fact yesterday.  Just making sure I wasn't misinterpreting the rule.

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Seems pretty clear to me that he violated the rules

 

In restrospect I agree.  At that point something seemed off but I wasn't sure, which led me to reviewing the rules then asking the hive mind here.

 

As you know he DQ'd himself "a few moments later"

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

 

 

As you know he DQ'd himself "a few moments later"

 

So what happened a few moments later?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

Just now, RJH said:

So what happened a few moments later?

 

He made ready without me telling him to

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

He made ready without me telling him to

That's no bueno 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

That's no bueno 

 

The he wanted to argue in a passive/aggressive way because "I talked too much to him"

 

Told him to argue with the MD

 

He later apologized

Edited January 10, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Boomstick303]

32 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

As you know he DQ'd himself "a few moments later"

 

They tend to do that when they don't know the basic rules.

 

You can usually tell with people you have not shot with relatively quickly if they have no idea what they are doing.  I never look to DQ people, but I do become super attentive when I get that gut feeling.  Especially where my body is in relation to the firearm.  

Edited January 10, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Johnny_Chimpo]

23 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

They tend to do that when they don't know the basic rules.

 

You can usually tell with people you have not shot with relatively quickly if they have no idea what they are doing.  I never look to DQ people, but I do become super attentive when I get that gut feeling.  Especially where my body is in relation to the firearm.  

 

This happened at a club one state over that I hardly ever go to because of the distance.  As such I had never met this guy before.  After the weird interaction I asked around and found out that he is A. not a new shooter and B. a bit odd

 

That same squad had three newer shooters who thankfully were relatively squared away in their gun handling.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[rowdyb]

You did the right dq. But also you hinted at extraneous chit chat. That really can throw people and lead to misconstrued communication. 

Say as absolutely little as possible outside the range commands.

Then the shooter can't question what they heard or not. 

[llamasabound]

11 hours ago, rowdyb said:

You did the right dq. But also you hinted at extraneous chit chat. That really can throw people and lead to misconstrued communication. 

Say as absolutely little as possible outside the range commands.

Then the shooter can't question what they heard or not. 

This times a million. Doesn’t matter who is up and how good buddies we are — after a shooter is called to the line (ideally by a tablet RO), the first thing they hear from me is “make ready.” If there are still people down range I stand obviously forward of the start position and wait to give the make ready. Any conversation with shooters prior to make ready is to be avoided. I can talk to them when I don’t have a timer in my hand.

[Thomas H]

On 1/10/2023 at 5:37 PM, llamasabound said:

This times a million. Doesn’t matter who is up and how good buddies we are — after a shooter is called to the line (ideally by a tablet RO), the first thing they hear from me is “make ready.” If there are still people down range I stand obviously forward of the start position and wait to give the make ready. Any conversation with shooters prior to make ready is to be avoided. I can talk to them when I don’t have a timer in my hand.

 

The part in bold REALLY works, and is easy and simple to do.  If the RO is standing in front of the start position and in front of the competitor (relatively speaking, you don't have to stand right in front of the shooter), the competitor would not be able to argue at all that they thought it was okay to make ready in the case of an issue.

 

More importantly, just the act of standing there makes it obvious that they shouldn't make ready, no matter what they think they hear. 

 

In every single case of a DQ I've seen due to someone pulling out a gun when the make ready command hadn't been given, either a) it was a relatively new shooter who thought the range was clear and ready to go, or b) the shooter thought the Make Ready command had been given either because someone said something that sounded like it, or the RO had been talking to them and they thought permission had been given.

 

If the RO stands downrange of the start position until it is time to give the Make Ready command (and they move uprange of the shooter right before they give the command), it is MUCH less likely that the shooter is going to make that type of DQ-able error.

 

I will on occasion talk to the shooter if they ask questions or something like that---but when I do, I'm downrange and facing them, so it is obvious that whatever I'm saying, I'm NOT telling them to draw their gun.   Since I've started doing this, I haven't had to DQ anyone for pulling a gun prior to the Make Ready command.

[JM_]

1 hour ago, Thomas H said:

 

The part in bold REALLY works, and is easy and simple to do.  If the RO is standing in front of the start position and in front of the competitor (relatively speaking, you don't have to stand right in front of the shooter), the competitor would not be able to argue at all that they thought it was okay to make ready in the case of an issue.

 

More importantly, just the act of standing there makes it obvious that they shouldn't make ready, no matter what they think they hear. 

 

In every single case of a DQ I've seen due to someone pulling out a gun when the make ready command hadn't been given, either a) it was a relatively new shooter who thought the range was clear and ready to go, or b) the shooter thought the Make Ready command had been given either because someone said something that sounded like it, or the RO had been talking to them and they thought permission had been given.

 

If the RO stands downrange of the start position until it is time to give the Make Ready command (and they move uprange of the shooter right before they give the command), it is MUCH less likely that the shooter is going to make that type of DQ-able error.

 

I will on occasion talk to the shooter if they ask questions or something like that---but when I do, I'm downrange and facing them, so it is obvious that whatever I'm saying, I'm NOT telling them to draw their gun.   Since I've started doing this, I haven't had to DQ anyone for pulling a gun prior to the Make Ready command.

Definitely going to start doing this and will recommend it to all the ROs I manage during our matches!

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 1/12/2023 at 10:15 AM, Thomas H said:

If the RO stands downrange of the start position until it is time to give the Make Ready command (and they move uprange of the shooter right before they give the command), it is MUCH less likely that the shooter is going to make that type of DQ-able error.

 

A good idea that wouldn't have worked in this case.  Not gonna stand downrange of someone holding a rifle in his hands.

 

Distractions or no distractions, none of that changes the fact that it's the shooter's responsibility to not handle his firearm until the command is given.  More than once I have asked the RO if he said make ready.

 

 

[Nolan]

13 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

A good idea that wouldn't have worked in this case.  Not gonna stand downrange of someone holding a rifle in his hands.

 

Distractions or no distractions, none of that changes the fact that it's the shooter's responsibility to not handle his firearm until the command is given.  More than once I have asked the RO if he said make ready.

 

 

 

What?  Double plugged and too many years of shooting, Harleys, and concerts, so yeah, I've asked more than a few hundred times!  LOL!

 

Nolan

[Chapo]

Def a DQ!  If I was the RO I would have done the same.

[Thomas H]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:37 AM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

A good idea that wouldn't have worked in this case.  Not gonna stand downrange of someone holding a rifle in his hands.

 

 

Wouldn't have worked?

 

It literally would have solved the problem because the shooter in the OP had a bagged gun on the line, and pointed out to the RO that there was someone downrange of him which is why he wasn't doing it yet.  If the RO had stood in front of the start position (which, I'll note, is not remotely the same thing as "stand downrange of someone holding a rifle in his hands") this wouldn't have happened.

 

Similarly, as an RO I've stood downrange of any number of people with rifles in their hands, as has anyone else who has run people who unbagged at the berm and brought it up to the line in a vertical orientation. 

 

And if you are standing downrange of the start position (you don't have to be standing directly in front of them---after all, they are normally try to look at the course of fire) then it will be obvious they shouldn't start making ready.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

The whole pcc Unbagging issue should have been straightened out and simplified and also run consistent with the pistol shooters. 
the board dropped the ball on this big time. 
There so many that should be DQ’d that there setting bad habits for the new pcc shooters just starting off. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

Wouldn't have worked?

 

It literally would have solved the problem because the shooter in the OP had a bagged gun on the line, and pointed out to the RO that there was someone downrange of him which is why he wasn't doing it yet.  If the RO had stood in front of the start position (which, I'll note, is not remotely the same thing as "stand downrange of someone holding a rifle in his hands") this wouldn't have happened.

 

Similarly, as an RO I've stood downrange of any number of people with rifles in their hands, as has anyone else who has run people who unbagged at the berm and brought it up to the line in a vertical orientation. 

 

And if you are standing downrange of the start position (you don't have to be standing directly in front of them---after all, they are normally try to look at the course of fire) then it will be obvious they shouldn't start making ready.

 

I was the RO who was there.  That's how I know your advice would not work in the situation I described in the OP.

[-JCN-]

On 1/9/2023 at 9:29 PM, Boomstick303 said:

DQ.

 

They way I interpret the rules are as follows:

 

 

Essentially allows the shooter to case/uncase their PCC without the supervision of the RO to get ready when the shooter is on deck.  Obviously they would not be able case/uncase against the backstop when the bay is active.  

 

I am sure you are aware but for others 10.5.19 does not allow for any other gun handling except to case/uncase.

"All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer."

 

 

Essentially this is when the shooter brings his PPC cased to the line when they are ready to shoot.  I see this as a pretty common occurrence at indoor matches since there is no side berm.   They are not able to uncase until the make ready command is given by the RO.  Unless they are within 2 yards of the backstop, which would be a super rare instance like if the start position was at the front of the bay.  

 

From what you described he should have been DQ'd the second the PCC was uncased without being within 2 yards of the side berm or backstop.  

 

At the indoor matches here there’s a safety table pointed at the side concrete wall where they let PCC shooters stage their guns unbagged. It kind of meets the “side berm” requirement but also the safety table bypass of the requirement. 
 

Then you carry it to the line vertical muzzle up and make ready on command. 
 

I thought there was a rules proposal to allow optic adjustment for PCC as long as remaining vertical?

 

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

The way the safety rules have been modified to allow rifles in irks me. 
the whole berm thing … 

whsts any difference them me going over to the berm and drawing my gun from the holster. 
idk the whole pcc different safety rules made me question even becoming an RO. 
but yes if nothing changes ,Allowing PCC to look through and adjust their sight  is no different than me adjusting the brightness of my dot by my guns in the holster

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Right now you unbag at berm and look through you sight. DQ