PCC unsafe gun handling rules question

[racerba]

7 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I never uttered the words make ready.  If he thought I did he should have asked, like I have asked before when I wasn't sure.

you don't need to give the command "make ready" for the shooter to be "under RO supervision"...

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, racerba said:

you don't need to give the command "make ready" for the shooter to be "under RO supervision"...

I said (and gave an explanation) of this in my post just before yours. However, I don't believe the OP ever uttered a word to him other than to DQ him because the shooter basically started himself from what I gathered.  

[racerba]

20 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I said (and gave an explanation) of this in my post just before yours. However, I don't believe the OP ever uttered a word to him other than to DQ him because the shooter basically started himself from what I gathered.  

I agree with your explanation.

 

I'm not arguing the legitimacy of his DQ of the shooter making ready before the command.  The OP was questioning if he should have DQ the shooter for uncasing before going to the line.  I just wanted to know if the shooter was under the impression that he was under the supervision of the RO when he uncased the PCC.  because according the the OP, it could be that the shooter was under the assumption he was under the supervision of the RO since he was there watching the downrange competitor with the shooter.  depending on the situation, it may not be a DQ - it makes a big difference.

Edited January 25, 2023 by racerba

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, EricJ said:

That being said, "under the supervision of a range officer" is not defined by "make ready" - any time an RO is asked to perform RO duties for a firearm related action (or any other action that requires an RO be present) and said RO agrees to do so, you are now under the direct supervision of the RO until said action is completed

 

Except that unbagging a PCC at a berm doesn't require RO supervision.

 

I think I'm going to ask NROI about what they consider to be under RO supervision.

 

The only instance that I can think of, which doesn't require the make ready command, is when an RO is summoned to recover a firearm dropped outside of the stage boundaries.  Someone dropping a firearm during the course of fire is, by definition, already under RO supervision.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, racerba said:

I just wanted to know if the shooter was under the impression that he was under the supervision of the RO when he uncased the PCC.  because according the the OP, it could be that the shooter was under the assumption he was under the supervision of the RO since he was there watching the downrange competitor with the shooter.  depending on the situation, it may not be a DQ - it makes a big difference.

 

The shooter was trying to unbag at the side berm.  He's not required to have RO supervision to do so.

 

I can't speak to what he thought.

[racerba]

11 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The shooter was trying to unbag at the side berm.  He's not required to have RO supervision to do so.

 

but he wasn't at the side berm, according to the OP.  I'm guessing that there was a table near the start position where the shooter was trying to unbag and eventually unbagged after the downrange competitor moved.  OP was standing near him to have the discussion of said competitor.  once the competitor moved to a safe location, the shooter removed the PCC and they both walked to the line (start position) where the shooter commenced with making ready without the make ready command.  this is the scenario that I'm thinking happened.  more clarification is needed to correctly determine if removing the PCC from the bag warrants a DQ.  I don't think it's cut and dry as earlier posters think it is.

[RJH]

Here's a tangent that only has to do with the "under the direct supervision of an RO" portion of this thread.

 

I have more than once, while under the direct supervision of an RO, unholstered and bagged my pistol in the middle of a bay. Obviously since I am bagging my gun this is not under make ready. This is generally done at the end of the day and I am fixing to help tear down or something like that and it saves me the walk to the safe table.

 

I don't see any issue with this, but maybe there is one.

[Climbhard]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

Here's a tangent that only has to do with the "under the direct supervision of an RO" portion of this thread.

 

I have more than once, while under the direct supervision of an RO, unholstered and bagged my pistol in the middle of a bay. Obviously since I am bagging my gun this is not under make ready. This is generally done at the end of the day and I am fixing to help tear down or something like that and it saves me the walk to the safe table.

 

I don't see any issue with this, but maybe there is one.

Whenever we bag handguns after a stage or end of the day an RO gives a "make ready", "unload and ..... etc..  This is clearly stated in the rules.

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, Climbhard said:

Whenever we bag handguns after a stage or end of the day an RO gives a "make ready", "unload and ..... etc..  This is clearly stated in the rules.

 

Yeah, I guess that'd be a more technically correct way to do it

[Climbhard]

14 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

 

 

I think I'm going to ask NROI about what they consider to be under RO supervision.

 

The only instance that I can think of, which doesn't require the make ready command, is when an RO is summoned to recover a firearm dropped outside of the stage boundaries.  Someone dropping a firearm during the course of fire is, by definition, already under RO supervision.

I have written NROI.  I still believe (at least its unclear) that you can unbag at the start position under direct supervision of the RO (BEFORE MAKE READY).  Otherwise, the last sentence of 5.2.1.7 is meaningless.  

 

"Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm OR BACK STOP during casing / uncasing.... will result in a DQ per 10.5.19"  My reasoning is...

1. You can't uncase pointing at the back stop in front of the side berm.  Therefore
2. Pointing the muzzle "towards the backstop" must refer to uncasing away from the side berm  i.e. maybe the start line)
3. It has to refer to uncasing BEFORE "make ready" because you can't get DQ'd AFTER "make ready" for pointing it somewhere other than the back stop (like say a target somewhere downrange).

So what they MUST be saying is that under the direct supervision of an RO you can uncase pointing at the back stop but any other action like removing the chamber flag playing with the optic, etc. has to wait for "make ready".

Edited January 26, 2023 by Climbhard

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, racerba said:

but he wasn't at the side berm, according to the OP. 

 

I didn't really make it clear in the OP.  I will now.

 

The shooter placed his bagged pcc on a table (not a safe area) at the side berm, almost at the uprange edge of it, with the muzzle pointing downrange. 

 

I looked around for my next shooter and he (from the table by the side berm) looked at me and mentioned the guy downrange as the reason he hadn't unbagged.  I said nothing.  Downrange guy became aware (maybe he overheard shooter, he wasn't far) and moved out of the way.

 

PCC guy unzips and unbags, muzzle pointed downrange and not pointed at the side berm like he's required to in that case.  The ol' gotta be within 2 yards of the berm with muzzle pointed at that berm.

 

At that point I should have DQd him but didn't because I was hazy on the exact rules.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

6 hours ago, Climbhard said:

I have written NROI.  I still believe (at least its unclear) that you can unbag at the start position under direct supervision of the RO (BEFORE MAKE READY).  Otherwise, the last sentence of 5.2.1.7 is meaningless.  

 

"Failure to point the muzzle at a side berm OR BACK STOP during casing / uncasing.... will result in a DQ per 10.5.19"  My reasoning is...

1. You can't uncase pointing at the back stop in front of the side berm.  Therefore
2. Pointing the muzzle "towards the backstop" must refer to uncasing away from the side berm  i.e. maybe the start line)
3. It has to refer to uncasing BEFORE "make ready" because you can't get DQ'd AFTER "make ready" for pointing it somewhere other than the back stop (like say a target somewhere downrange).

So what they MUST be saying is that under the direct supervision of an RO you can uncase pointing at the back stop but any other action like removing the chamber flag playing with the optic, etc. has to wait for "make ready".

 

None of that is correct.

 

If you want to unbag before the make ready command (ie w/o RO supervision) you have to choices:

• Go to a spot within 2 yards of the side berm, point the carbine to the side berm, unbag, go to the start position with the muzzle in a vertical orientation
• Go to a spot within 2 yards of the back stop, point the carbine to the back stop, unbag, go to the start position with the muzzle in a vertical orientation

 

In either of those two cases you can do no manipulations or even a sight picture until you are under RO supervision which means you have received the make ready command.

 

That's what NROI is going to tell you.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[racerba]

17 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I didn't really make it clear in the OP.  I will now.

 

The shooter placed his bagged pcc on a table (not a safe area) at the side berm, almost at the uprange edge of it, with the muzzle pointing downrange. 

 

I looked around for my next shooter and he (from the table by the side berm) looked at me and mentioned the guy downrange as the reason he hadn't unbagged.  I said nothing.  Downrange guy became aware (maybe he overheard shooter, he wasn't far) and moved out of the way.

 

PCC guy unzips and unbags, muzzle pointed downrange and not pointed at the side berm like he's required to in that case.  The ol' gotta be within 2 yards of the berm with muzzle pointed at that berm.

 

At that point I should have DQd him but didn't because I was hazy on the exact rules.

With that clarification, I agree that a DQ would have been justified...

However, you watched him unzipping the bag...at that point, you should have reminded him to point the bag towards the side berm.  I realized you have no obligation to do so, but remember, we, as ROs, are here to assist the shooter by monitoring their actions.  if possible, we try to prevent any unsafe actions about to be committed by the competitor.  

similar to at the end of the stage and the shooter is facing to the right(right handed shooter) of the bay (179).  I would generally advise the shooter to face down range and ULSC.  

[Sarge]

33 minutes ago, racerba said:

With that clarification, I agree that a DQ would have been justified...

However, you watched him unzipping the bag...at that point, you should have reminded him to point the bag towards the side berm.  I realized you have no obligation to do so, but remember, we, as ROs, are here to assist the shooter by monitoring their actions.  if possible, we try to prevent any unsafe actions about to be committed by the competitor.  

similar to at the end of the stage and the shooter is facing to the right(right handed shooter) of the bay (179).  I would generally advise the shooter to face down range and ULSC.  

I agree and disagree with this logic. I will generally not get involved in a shooters gun handling. Maybe for a brand spanking new shooter I’ll “remind” them to face downrange before holstering etc but I’m not doing that for every shooter. I don’t do it at all at Majors. One should know better by then.

 I DQed two shooters for not putting 2011’s on safe before holstering in one day at a major a few years back. Sort of got roasted for it but when we’re they ever going to get busted for it? Hopefully before blowing their foot off. Another shooter on the squad told me one of them gets warned about it all the time. Guess what? It wasn’t working.

 Besides, in this very thread people have said stick to the range commands. “Please face directly downrange, and while insuring the muzzle doesn’t break the 180, unload and show clear”, is not an authorized range command.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Sort of got roasted for it but when we’re they ever going to get busted for it?

 

Truly amazing you were for getting roasted for that.  The rule is there for a reason.

 

Holstering and holstering guns is where people shoot themselves more often than any other evolution in shooting.  Not putting a 2011 on safe when holstering where the triggers are typically running sub 2 pounds is definitely putting the shooter at risk.  

 

 

 

[racerba]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

“Please face directly downrange, and while insuring the muzzle doesn’t break the 180, unload and show clear”, is not an authorized range command.

I can respect that, and I understand...but I'm there to help them be safe.  Yes, I realize it's not authorized range command...but I rather not see the shooter let one off while the gun is pointing uprange.  I don't get that much involved with all that wording...I just remind them - face downrange, ULSC. if they don't listen...then it's on them.
I rather stop them before they holster an unsafe gun than to let them blow their foot off...worse yet, blow MY foot off...

[Boomstick303]

8 minutes ago, racerba said:

I just remind them - face downrange, ULSC.

 

Are you a certified USPSA RO or CRO?

 

The reason I ask is because in the USPSA RO/CRO classes they are very explicit to say only the Range Commands in the Rule Set once the shooter is on the line.  The reason for this is USPSA is shot around the world, and the commands are given in English.  This is to prevent misunderstanding for people where English is not their first language and prevent them from being DQd due to this type of misunderstanding.  In the class the trainers do mention you can help new shooters in preventing them from going home with some coaching, but mostly stick to range commands.  They teach you to not chatter to others and/or the shooter while performing RO duties once the shooter is at the line.  Thus, preventing any misunderstandings.  

 

The shooter attends a safety course before they are allowed to attend their first match, and must have a basic understanding of the rules before stepping to the line.  If they break a rule and get DQ'd, that is part of the learning process.  I got DQ'd at my very first match which was an IDPA match for breaking the 180 on a reload.  I felt I did not break the 180, and the SO even mentioned in his terms he thinks I broke the 180, but I did not argue the call. I chalked it as a learning experience and moved on.  Of course as ab RO you will stop shoooters to keep things safe, but in stopping them if the broke a rule to where the are to be DQ,d  they need to be DQ'd.

 

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

The shooter attends a safety course before they are allowed to attend their first match, and must have a basic understanding of the rules before stepping to the line.

 

I wish it were so but it's not.  USPSA doesn't require it so it's a club by club thing.

 

Nobody in my local are requires such a course.  The most I see is a new shooter briefing the morning of the match.  Some are short, concise, and to the point.  Others just confuse the s#!t out of new shooters.

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

I wish it were so but it's not.  USPSA doesn't require it so it's a club by club thing.

 

Thinking about it after you mentioning it, that is correct. It is not a requirement in the Rule set.  I am thinking of how our section conducts itself.  That is unfortunate.  

[Sarge]

4 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Thinking about it after you mentioning it, that is correct. It is not a requirement in the Rule set.  I am thinking of how our section conducts itself.  That is unfortunate.  

I wish USPSA as a whole would adopt something. Something along the lines of the IPSC black badge course but not quite as stringent. 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Sarge

[racerba]

6 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Are you a certified USPSA RO or CRO?

 

Yes I am, and I said before that I agree it's not a range command.  In the class, it is also noted that we are to assist the shooter to safely complete the course.  I will not knowingly have the shooter accidentally point his gun uprange when I can prevent it.  Part of what I can do is issue the STOP command.  I will stop a competitor from doing something dangerous if I can help it.  yes, there are competitors from around the world that English is not their first language.  however, what they expect is ULSC.  if they did not understand "face downrange", they are still going to ULSC because that's what they expect to hear...if they don't break the 180, no harm-no foul.  If they break the 180...they were going to do so anyway.  I see no harm in trying to prevent a dangerous action. 

What you say is more important to not make idol chit chat at the beginning of the course of fire.  the shooter comes to the line and expects to hear Make Ready.  if you do idle chit chat, the shooter may make ready without you giving the MR command thinking you gave the MR command..  

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, Sarge said:

I wish USPSA as a whole would adopt something. Something along the lines of the IPSC black badge course but not quite as stringent. 

 

Agreed.  It would help immensely.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

20 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Agreed.  It would help immensely.  

 

I've had shooters at their first match whip their pistol out of a bag, in the middle of a shelter used for shooter's meeting, and point it right at me while manipulating to holster it.

[EricJ]

On 1/27/2023 at 9:08 PM, racerba said:

Yes I am, and I said before that I agree it's not a range command.  In the class, it is also noted that we are to assist the shooter to safely complete the course.  I will not knowingly have the shooter accidentally point his gun uprange when I can prevent it.  Part of what I can do is issue the STOP command.  I will stop a competitor from doing something dangerous if I can help it.  yes, there are competitors from around the world that English is not their first language.  however, what they expect is ULSC.  if they did not understand "face downrange", they are still going to ULSC because that's what they expect to hear...if they don't break the 180, no harm-no foul.  If they break the 180...they were going to do so anyway.  I see no harm in trying to prevent a dangerous action. 

What you say is more important to not make idol chit chat at the beginning of the course of fire.  the shooter comes to the line and expects to hear Make Ready.  if you do idle chit chat, the shooter may make ready without you giving the MR command thinking you gave the MR command..  

What class did you take where it was stated that we are to "assist the shooter" in safely completing the course?

[motosapiens]

On 1/26/2023 at 9:08 AM, Climbhard said:

Whenever we bag handguns after a stage or end of the day an RO gives a "make ready", "unload and ..... etc..  This is clearly stated in the rules.

well said. This is what I do, because it feels weird and wrong to just tell someone "ok, you can bag your gun now".