Limited Optics

[Rich406]

I’ve kind of been sitting back and watching this thread, and figure now it’s time to add my 2 cents..

 

For background, I’ve been shooting a P320 of some sort, in CO for the last 5 years.  
 

When LO was first announced, I just kind of shrugged my shoulders. My opinion at the time was, 2011s should just be added to CO.

 

For a fun thing to do this offseason, I picked up a fairly high end 2011 and have been shooting it fairly regularly the last few weeks. I basically picked up the gun and was as good or better than I had been with a p320, with very little time behind the trigger.
 

There is no question the 2011 is easier to shoot and it makes me a better shooter. How much is debatable. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the relative gain increase, the weaker the fundamentals and skill level of the shooter.  
 

All that said, how does this apply to LO? Well, my opinion is now that allowing 2011s in CO will invalidate most plastic guns. Most serious shooters will want every edge, real or perceived. 
 

People like to bring up Nils winning limited nationals with a canik. Nils is a hell of a shooter, but he’s paid to shoot a canik. He flat out would have won by 5%, instead of a fraction of a point, if he had been shooting a proper 2011 in major.  
 

[Boomstick303]

8 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

if he had been shooting a proper 2011 in major.

 

Agreed, but is that due to Major scoring and/or the 2011?  I completely agree with your statement of:

 

11 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

How much is debatable. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the relative gain increase, the weaker the fundamentals and skill level of the shooter.

 

I think marginal shooters would gain more than those at the top.  However I was surprised about what @Dazhihad indicated his performance difference was between the platforms which he mentioned earlier in this thread if my memory serves me correct, since he is near the top.  

 

 

I would be curious if 2011s were allowed in CO for arguments sake, how the top 10 would shake out at CO nationals with a mix of 2011s and Striker fired guns?  I am not advocating for this with the possibility of LO as a provisional.  I think it is important to capture the data of LO and CO being separate divisions.  But it would never the less be interesting.  If LO gets big enough and becomes a stand alone division in whatever final rule set becomes law, if LO and CO were combined at the same Nationals.  Who knows what the future holds.

 

What do you intend to shoot mostly if LO becomes a Provisional?  LO or CO or a mix?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, HesedTech said:

my comment really is about the lack of FPB in the Shadow 2.

 

That's what the safety notch on the hammer is for.  That's where CZ says it needs to be

[Rich406]

2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Agreed, but is that due to Major scoring and/or the 2011?  

A combo of both. A shooter of Nils talent has lesser gains, but I’d argue there is still a difference.

 

It took Nils a couple years of shooting the canik before his match results caught up to what they had been previously. He was consistently 10% behind Max for the first couple years in CO. 

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

He was consistently 10% behind Max for the first couple years in CO. 

 

Speaking of Max, would one assume he will be rocking the new Sig P226 in LO or continue to shoot CO?  Seems he has fallen of the pace as of late, but I am curious to what he will be shooting if LO becomes a thing.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Boomstick303

[HesedTech]

3 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

That's what the safety notch on the hammer is for.  That's where CZ says it needs to be

I think you just want to argue this, and you well know CZ made a competition Production gun based on the successful TS competition gun and not a “carry gun.”  Also I owned a first gen TS and it had an amazing trigger for an out of the box gun. Sold it to shoot Production many years ago. 
 

You also know most owners , polish, change the trigger, hammer, springs, extended FP and possibly more. All of this is far outside your “CZ says it needs to be” statement, and such it is in competitive sports of any kind. 
 

Is the gun safe? Yes, as any competition gun is. 
 

Chill a bit and enjoy the day. 
 

 

[Rich406]

35 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I would be curious if 2011s were allowed in CO for arguments sake, how the top 10 would shake out at CO nationals with a mix of 2011s and Striker fired guns?

 

What do you intend to shoot mostly if LO becomes a Provisional?  LO or CO or a mix?

I think you’d see a fairly similar split to what we currently see in limited. Paid shooters shooting plastic guns, and a good portion of everyone else using a 2011.

 

It boils down to this, most any gun can be shot competitively, but it takes much more skill and time to shoot some guns on the same level as others.  
 

Also the difference in quality of sponsorship is huge, Canik pays Nils an actual salary to shoot. A sponsorship from a custom shop is a mediocre discount or free use of a gun if you’re really good. 
 

You can hardly blame the guy for going the route he is. He’s making a decent salary to do what he enjoys. Even if he’s artificially limiting his top performance in some divisions.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, HesedTech said:

I think you just want to argue this, and you well know CZ made a competition Production gun based on the successful TS competition gun and not a “carry gun.”  Also I owned a first gen TS and it had an amazing trigger for an out of the box gun. Sold it to shoot Production many years ago. 
 

You also know most owners , polish, change the trigger, hammer, springs, extended FP and possibly more. All of this is far outside your “CZ says it needs to be” statement, and such it is in competitive sports of any kind. 
 

Is the gun safe? Yes, as any competition gun is. 
 

Chill a bit and enjoy the day. 
 

 

 

Your idea would have merit if you required everyone to engage their safety anytime they're moving after the start signal.  Until then the start condition is really irrelevant.

[ddc]

3 hours ago, HesedTech said:

I shoot a Shadow 2 quite well in CO, DA and all. Done it so long I don’t even think about the DA shot at all.
 

But my comment really is about the lack of FPB in the Shadow 2. And without revisiting an old thread, I believe the gun is in a safer condition holstered with safety on over hammer fully forward.

 

I will forgive you for your out of place comment though. 

 

So now we are going to debate whether or not a gun is appropriate for LO/CO based upon if it has an firing pin block or not?

I must have missed something...

 

[HesedTech]

8 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Your idea would have merit if you required everyone to engage their safety anytime they're moving after the start signal.  Until then the start condition is really irrelevant.

No merit to it, it’s already what is done in Limited Division. You just want to argue a point, engage safety while moving, that is absurd and has no merit.  

 

The rules are the rules today, and we start hammer forward, my comment is really simple make the rules the same for CO and Limited make ready and gun condition at the start of a run. 

Keep with, USPSA has rules about the starting condition and holstered condition of a competitor’s gun before, during and after their run. They need to be harmonized across all Divisions.

 

 

8 hours ago, ddc said:

 

So now we are going to debate whether or not a gun is appropriate for LO/CO based upon if it has an firing pin block or not?

I must have missed something...

 

You did miss something, it’s about the LO division and the differences with the current CO division, such as gun models and start condition of the gun. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, HesedTech said:

USPSA has rules about the starting condition and holstered condition of a competitor’s gun before, during and after their run. They need to be harmonized across all Divisions.

 

No such thing needs to be done.  Yours is the answer to the question nobody asked.

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Covfefe]

I just found this on Reddit and don’t know if real.
 

Assuming it is and LO happens, how would you see the new % in 3 years? 

 

Eyeballing chart: 

CO 35%

Lim 20%

open 14%

pcc 13%

prod 12% 

ss 6%

revo 1%

 

Perhaps quote this and write estimate next to my figures. Also curious if the classifications look accurate. 

 

 

 

DC2AB896-FAA2-4E33-9D61-380D7E5F9F40.webp

Edited January 22, 2023 by Covfefe

[HesedTech]

49 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

No such thing needs to be done.  Yours is the answer to the question nobody asked.

 

 

 

Not true, it's been discussed, starting with safety on and not hammer down,  and debated across multiple forums, as well as the LO idea, for a number of years now. 

 

In fact this a the very debate of LO guns and why they can't be used in CO, not on production list and so on...

 

And in case you forgot the thread is about LO, dates back to December, and is a place for people to give their opinions about it. Just because you don't care doesn't mean others do ad will bring up questions. For instance; I'm also for giving the choice of "Major PF" to the LO Division. I sent that to USPSA in their comments request.

 

Oh well moving on this thread obviously demonstrates the need for people to get fired up about something.

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

Not true, it's been discussed, starting with safety on and not hammer down,  and debated across multiple forums, as well as the LO idea, for a number of years now.

 

 

By whiners who can't grasp that they can't shoot their 2011 in any division they want and complain about minor pf

 

The safety argument for cocked and locked start is bulls#!t and everyone knows it, especially when same guns (2011s w/o FPB) are being held off safe while running all over the place

 

LOL

[Climbhard]

On 1/9/2023 at 2:19 PM, GrumpyOne said:

To make everyone laugh, that's why! 

I’d pay to see that. 

[motosapiens]

14 hours ago, Joetifosi said:

Your not piling on and I agree that's why we do them. It was just too damn cold for that kind of match. 

 

i guess I don't see what difference the temperature makes. We shoot the same sort of matches in 15 degree weather that we shoot in 80 degree weather, with the possible exception of making movements shorter if there is snow on the ground (less ground to shovel clear).

 

I think it is definitely possible to overdo it with challenging shots, and maybe that's what happened at your club. I don't have any issue with 15-20 yard zebras, but most people don't want to see several of them on every single stage. shooting is more fun to most of us when there are diverse challenges.

Edited January 22, 2023 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

By whiners

 

Just curious is to why when someone's opinion is different than yours they are a whiner?  

 

It would seem that the board has come up with a logic decision to the whole 2011 minor guns, and yet you still are bitching and complaining calling people whiners consistently.  From the point of the announcement of LO as a possible provisional division you are the only one still bitching.  

 

Some of us are under the opinion that there should be a place in the game for SA minor guns (not just 2011) to play and not be at a scoring disadvantage.  Just because you don't share the opinion does not make them a whiner.  

 

Like it or not 9mm Minor seems to be the future of shooting sports.  This has become all to obvious, if you care to recognize that is of no consequence to the sport or others.  

 

 

[Sinister4]

16 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

 

Like it or not 9mm Minor seems to be the future of shooting sports.  

 

 

I think the only way this will not come to pass as time goes on is to up the score % given to major, not a lot but right now it does seem to be slightly low, this would in effect make the decision to shoot major much easier.  ( id also for sure bump it back to 175)  but just my opinion  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

28 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

It would seem that the board has come up with a logic decision to the whole 2011 minor guns, and yet you still are bitching and complaining calling people whiners consistently.  From the point of the announcement of LO as a possible provisional division you are the only one still bitching. 

 

Have you Lo, I don't care.  Leave SA out of CO and Production

[Boomstick303]

15 minutes ago, Sinister4 said:

I think the only way this will not come to pass as time goes on is to up the score % given to major, not a lot but right now it does seem to be slightly low, this would in effect make the decision to shoot major much easier.  ( id also for sure bump it back to 175)  but just my opinion  

 

I am not sure anything saves Major from where I sit.  It has more to do with market economics than it does the sport itself.  I think Major dies a slow death much like production just not as abrupt.  Due the market, optics and the lack of reasonably priced Open/Limited guns due to the nature of wear on Limited and Open guns will cause a slow phase out.  

 

I do not know about others, but literally there are zero shooters that show up, stick around long enough for a cup of coffee in our Section end up shooting Limited and/or open. They almost 100% move to CO.  It seems to me to be zero interest in the Major PF divisions.   

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

I do not know about others, but literally there are zero shooters that show up, stick around long enough for a cup of coffee in our Section end up shooting Limited and/or open. They almost 100% move to CO.  It seems to me to be zero interest in the Major PF divisions.   

co is an excellent beginner division, and a great way to have fun while learning the sport, but i have already seen a number of people step up to open after a season or two. i dont know what will happen with limited, but right now its the only real option for folks who like irons. i doubt either of them are going away anytime soon.

[2011BLDR]

3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

 

 

Some of us are under the opinion that there should be a place in the game for SA minor guns (not just 2011) to play and not be at a scoring disadvantage.  Just because you don't share the opinion does not make them a whiner.  

 

Like it or not 9mm Minor seems to be the future of shooting sports.  This has become all to obvious, if you care to recognize that is of no consequence to the sport or others.  

 

 

At our Tuesday night informal indoor USPSA ish/ Practice Match.  In the blast 8 months we have 8 new shooters show up with 2011 ish guns with RDO attached all 9mm had to put all of them in Open, they are sticking with it only because we don't draw any Open / Limited Major guys on a regular basis  ... only 1 guy has committed to an atlas .40 Limited gun and has joined us in real outdoor USPSA matches... So 7 young new shooters that have committed the $3000+for a Tactical Optics set up and want to shoot matches but we cant interest them in USPSA because of the Open minor thing..USPSA is 6 years behind the tactical / carry pistol market.... the lounger we stay committed to our outdated set of divisions the quicker our decline and death will be.... Its sad the with the 2023 IDPA rule changes their Divisions are the closest to the Tactical / carry market ( ie comps, barrel porting Single action and magwells' in CO)( the rest of their rules suck and are not for me)\,,,,  But I'm only a 30 year member so its just my opinion

[Johnny_Chimpo]

f-it not worth it

Edited January 22, 2023 by Johnny_Chimpo

[ltdmstr]

46 minutes ago, 2011BLDR said:

. . . the lounger we stay committed to our outdated set of divisions the quicker our decline and death will be.

 

Seems the rumors of USPSA's impending death are a bit premature.  All the L1 matches around here are sold out, usually with a pretty sizable wait list.  And there isn't any realistic way to increase frequency or capacity.  And, from what I understand, the National matches all sell out as well.  So, I don't understand the constant push to attract new shooters when we can't even accommodate those we have now.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Just out of curiosity !

is the 2011 platform an advantage ?

and if it’s a huge advantage what would you say would be fair to even the playing field out if they were allowed in CO.
40oz weight limit ?

35oz 

or is there no way to have a competitive advantage platform be able to compete with other styles ?

Personal I think there an advantage but to have enough experience with them to say if the were ….. 34oz  it would even it out. 
 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Superkaratemonkeyfighter