Limited Optics

[vluc]

On 1/16/2023 at 8:48 PM, ltdmstr said:

 

And cracks me up when they justify shooting minor on the fact that the LEO market has abandoned .40 and gone to 9mm when most agencies that have switched are using +P or +P+ loads, like Winchester Ranger, that are close to 160 pf.  That's almost making major.  Not 125 pf like they're shooting in CO.

 

Or sub-minor for "approved/certified "ammo

[vluc]

8 hours ago, Joetifosi said:

Doesn't anyone want to shoot iron sights anymore? 

 

When I can get a set of cloned eyes with 20/20 vision to replace these old ones, I'd be in.  I miss production but when you get old and can't see well enough, well....

[sfinney]

1 hour ago, vluc said:

 

When I can get a set of cloned eyes with 20/20 vision to replace these old ones, I'd be in.  I miss production but when you get old and can't see well enough, well....

I'm with you there. Not seeing well sucks, more so when you you used to not even need glasses.

 

But what's everyone else excuse, under 40 that see fine? Seems to be a rush to throw dots on everything, even tiny carry guns. 

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

9 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

 

At the rate things are going, in a couple years we'll have an airsoft division.

 

And so what if we do?  IPSC already has one.  Those that want to shoot it can and those that don't won't.

 

Indoor action air matches would be f*#king awesome in winter since they can be done in facilities that can't support firearms.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, sfinney said:

But what's everyone else excuse, under 40 that see fine? Seems to be a rush to throw dots on everything, even tiny carry guns.

 

Because reflex sights are superior in every way to irons.  They let us use our vision they way our brain wants to use it when facing a threat.  They provide incredible amounts of feedback which makes learning how to shoot much easier for anyone who pays attention.

 

In ten years no one will care about iron sights except a few holdouts.

[ltdmstr]

55 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

And so what if we do?  IPSC already has one.  Those that want to shoot it can and those that don't won't.

 

Indoor action air matches would be f*#king awesome in winter since they can be done in facilities that can't support firearms.

 

I can see why you're hot on CO.  I guess the logical progression will be Limited/Production, CO, airsoft, video games. I mean, think of all the new "shooters" we can attract!!  Even non-gun people!  Grow the sport!  It'll be awesome!

 

54 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Because reflex sights are superior in every way to irons.  They let us use our vision they way our brain wants to use it when facing a threat.  They provide incredible amounts of feedback which makes learning how to shoot much easier for anyone who pays attention.

 

In ten years no one will care about iron sights except a few holdouts.

 

This is complete BS.  There are significant downsides to reflex sights, which have been discussed previously, so not going to repost all that again.  But to say reflex sights are superior in every way is ridiculous.

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

25 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

I can see why you're hot on CO.  I guess the logical progression will be Limited/Production, CO, airsoft, video games. I mean, think of all the new "shooters" we can attract!!  Even non-gun people!  Grow the sport!  It'll be awesome!

This is typical of people who are left behind by progress and can't adapt.

 

 

25 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

This is complete BS.  There are significant downsides to reflex sights, which have been discussed previously, so not going to repost all that again.  But to say reflex sights are superior in every way is ridiculous.

The downsides exist for people who buy s#!t chinese optics and/or can't figure out how to screw one on to the slide without it falling off.  For the rest of us who buy quality optics and have the basic mechanical skills to tighten screws, not so much.

 

[pskys2]

4 hours ago, vluc said:

 

When I can get a set of cloned eyes with 20/20 vision to replace these old ones, I'd be in.  I miss production but when you get old and can't see well enough, well....

I had a pair of hunter gold's made, even got insurance to pay for the prescription part, with my shooting prescription in them.  

My shooting prescription reinforces the proper technique for shooting irons.  Focus is on the front sight and the target is a little blurred.

So age is just another challenge to adapt to.

But technology is driving the future.

[Sinister4]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

 

 

Indoor action air matches would be f*#king awesome in winter since they can be done in facilities that can't support firearms.

Agreed 110%   love to shoot indoor winter airsoft, .22, BB gun whatever 

[ltdmstr]

45 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

This is typical of people who are left behind by progress and can't adapt.

 

 

Basically a condescending and emotional response that's meaningless without context.  Just because something is different or new doesn't mean it's better.  Like has been discussed previously, there are positives and negatives to reflex sights.  You seem to only see the positive. 

 

45 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

The downsides exist for people who buy s#!t chinese optics and/or can't figure out how to screw one on to the slide without it falling off.  For the rest of us who buy quality optics and have the basic mechanical skills to tighten screws, not so much.

 

Yeah, like the RMR I bought that died for no reason.  And the two other name brand optics that died after a couple thousand rounds.  Or how about a real-world application failure.  Like the replacement RMR, which I intended to use on a nightstand gun.  Did a test where I woke up and grabbed the gun and the dot was so bright I was blinded, couldn't even look at it.  Tried again next night.  Same thing.  Sent it back to Trijicon.  Turns out, if you set it low, it reverts to the default setting.  By design.  Which renders the thing useless in low light situation.  But, you know, the military picked it.  So, must by the best there is, right?  What a joke.  That's just one example.  Your statement was that reflex sights are superior in every way.  They are not.

Edited January 18, 2023 by ltdmstr

[motosapiens]

dots have some uses, and advantages in some situations, and the worse your eyesight is, the more advantages they have.

 

but i'm not going to start carrying a gun with a dot anytime soon. simpler isn't always better, but it's always simpler.

 

I also expect that while CO will remain popular, before long we'll see people starting to drift back to other divisions. PCC was super popular for a year or two, and now is mostly only elderly and disabled people around here.

 

I'm back to Limited for 2023. We'll see how long it lasts. At 61 my eyes aren't getting any better, but they also aren't all that much worse than they used to be, and I can still hit headshots at 20 yards.

Edited January 18, 2023 by motosapiens

[Johnny_Chimpo]

23 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Basically a condescending and emotional response that's meaningless without context.  Just because something is different or new doesn't mean it's better.  Like has been discussed previously, there are positives and negatives to reflex sights.  You seem to only see the positive. 

 

 

Yeah, like the RMR I bought that died for no reason.  And the two other name brand optics that died after a couple thousand rounds.  Or how about a real-world application failure.  Like the replacement RMR, which I intended to use on a nightstand gun.  Did a test where I woke up and grabbed the gun and the dot was so bright I was blinded, couldn't even look at it.  Tried again next night.  Same thing.  Sent it back to Trijicon.  Turns out, if you set it low, it reverts to the default setting.  By design.  Which renders the thing useless in low light situation.  But, you know, the military picked it.  So, must by the best there is, right?  What a joke.  That's just one example.  Your statement was that reflex sights are superior in every way.  They are not.

 

Reflex sights are the future.  The technology will continue to improve and mature.  People with no vision cannot see anything but the present and past.

 

You must also be the most unlucky person in the world.  I have five Trijicon products, four of them pistol-mounted reflex sights.  All have worked perfectly since day one.  Even the one on a pistol that got tossed on gravel and landed upside down.  That SRO held zero and still works like a champ.

[Racinready300ex]

47 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

 

My shooting prescription reinforces the proper technique for shooting irons.  Focus is on the front sight and the target is a little blurred.

 

 

More shooters are moving toward target focus with blurry sights for irons too. A hard front sight focus is no longer the clear proper technique it once was. 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Reflex sights are the future.  The technology will continue to improve and mature.  People with no vision cannot see anything but the present and past.

 

 

I agree they probably are the future. But, you said above they are superior in every way which is a stretch. Lots of guys here, including me have broken SRO's. They still fail at a higher rate than irons,(I've also broken irons) and there can be some brightness issues as @ltdmstr mentioned. Getting water on the emitter makes shooting tricky too. Finding the dot is a problem for people who don't practice. 

 

There are positives and negatives to both, ...superior in everyway is not a accurate statement. I personally choose to use a optic the vast majority of the time. 

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

A hard front sight focus is no longer the clear proper technique it once was.

 

This new target focus approach to irons, has added one nuance to using iron sights beyond the others that have already existed.

 

Once again arguments on which system is best pointless.  It all comes down to the proficiency of the user.  Each system has pros and cons.

 

For me, as it is for many, it was easier to progress more quickly in shooting sports using dots in that you eliminate time time dedicated to learning all of those nuances when using Irons.  Learning all of the nuances is time consuming and something I did not care to learn.  When I started shooting a couple of years ago, my eyes started going as well.  It did not make any sense to invest any time into learning Irons, when the need for using a dot was fast approaching. 

 

Each person has their reasons for using either system for various applications.  To argue about it is a complete waste of time.  

 

I envy guys that are super proficient in both.  I am not, and I am ok with that. 

 

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

superior in everyway is not a accurate statement

 

Yup, they are not superior in every way.  They are just different types of systems both with Pros and Cons.  

[Racinready300ex]

51 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This new target focus approach to irons, has added one nuance to using iron sights beyond the others that have already existed.

 

Once again arguments on which system is best pointless.  It all comes down to the proficiency of the user.  Each system has pros and cons.

 

For me, as it is for many, it was easier to progress more quickly in shooting sports using dots in that you eliminate time time dedicated to learning all of those nuances when using Irons.  Learning all of the nuances is time consuming and something I did not care to learn.  When I started shooting a couple of years ago, my eyes started going as well.  It did not make any sense to invest any time into learning Irons, when the need for using a dot was fast approaching. 

 

Each person has their reasons for using either system for various applications.  To argue about it is a complete waste of time.  

 

I envy guys that are super proficient in both.  I am not, and I am ok with that. 

 

 

Yup, they are not superior in every way.  They are just different types of systems both with Pros and Cons.  

 

That was kinda my point. Front sight focus isn't the only technique these days. More than one way to skin a cat kind of thing. 

 

If you tell someone who's not a uspsa shooter but been shooting for a while that you target focus with irons they look at you funny. There was a time front sight was considered the only right answer and to many it still is. But that's not accurate any more. 

[RangerTrace]

Matt Cheely is a pretty salty GM and he uses target focus with iron sights.

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

Matt Cheely is a pretty salty GM and he uses target focus with iron sights.

 

There are dozens of people that do but do not talk about it.  From my understanding it is relatively new, but it makes sense when you think about it.  

 

[RangerTrace]

20 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

There are dozens of people that do but do not talk about it.  From my understanding it is relatively new, but it makes sense when you think about it.  

 

It doesn't make sense to me, but that's because I've been taught/trained/practiced front sight focus for 30 years.  But I'm on the dot bandwagon now......

[sfinney]

See what you need to see.

If you can focus on the target, and see enough from your index and general shape of gun/sights to get A's at 0 to 15yds or 20 + go for it.

 

But for longer or tighter shots -  you may need to see more... which is where the sights come back in, and transitioning your eyes from target to sights back to target- where getting old sucks at this skill set.

 

So these days, I shoot 90 % of my shots target focus with blurry sights, and do well enough. 

I tried corrected lenses for each eye, to force this dual vision, gives me a headache.

I want to try the new drops that give you a few hours of up close focus...

 

Red dots allow me to keep the target focus, and as I'm not focusing on the dot, see it perfectly.

 

But on the keep it simple comment earlier- 100%. If you carry an electronic dot on a defense gun, I'd practice how to shoot it turned off as well, for learning an index.... for just in case. Just like I have shot my Limited gun without sights just to learn....   anyways, figure most close in defense shooting would be index or point shooting for most anyway, in reality.

 

As for not being able to adapt or learn new things.... you do realize many of the people you are saying this too, started off shooting single stack 1911s or similar, and moved on to comped 1911 or EAA guns, then optic comp guns, and 2011 Open and Limited guns, then back to Production guns, then on to Carry Optic guns.... and that's only the pistols. Sounds like alot of adapting being going on over the years, and our sport is pointy end of the spear on gear and firearm development. Just because someone with "experience" does not agree with you does not mean they are stupid or to stubborn to adapt.

 

Cut everyone some slack and lets discuss these issues with respect and politeness for each others point of view. We are not all wrong, we just don't agree. 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

39 minutes ago, sfinney said:

As for not being able to adapt or learn new things.... you do realize many of the people you are saying this too, started off shooting single stack 1911s or similar, and moved on to comped 1911 or EAA guns, then optic comp guns, and 2011 Open and Limited guns, then back to Production guns, then on to Carry Optic guns.... and that's only the pistols. Sounds like alot of adapting being going on over the years, and our sport is pointy end of the spear on gear and firearm development. Just because someone with "experience" does not agree with you does not mean they are stupid or to stubborn to adapt.

 

Cut everyone some slack and lets discuss these issues with respect and politeness for each others point of view. We are not all wrong, we just don't agree. 

 

 

My comments were directed at one single person. 

[ltdmstr]

16 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

My comments were directed at one single person. 

 

Assuming that was directed at me, it's actually pretty funny.  I have handguns and rifles with dots on them, including a Prodigy, PCC and Marlin 1984.  I built 9mm single stack and 2011 guns probably 10+ years ago, before they were even a thing.  And I shoot all kinds of fun stuff with dots, irons, scopes, major, minor, handguns, rifles, shotguns, you name it.  But, because I disagree with your opinion that reflex sights are the only way to go, I'm a Luddite.  Right on, dude!

[Boomstick303]

I will say it is kind of telling it only seems one person's posts get deleted where the thread gets locked directly after the post is deleted. 

 

With that said, we are off in the weeds.  Probably should get back on topic of the OP before this thread gets locked up if we want any constructive conversation remaining on the topic.

[Covfefe]

26 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I will say it is kind of telling it only seems one person's posts get deleted where the thread gets locked directly after the post is deleted. 

 

With that said, we are off in the weeds.  Probably should get back on topic of the OP before this thread gets locked up if we want any constructive conversation remaining on the topic.

I’ll try. What’s the best optionality for someone pivoting to a dot but unsure about which division? 

 

I’m thinking of getting a Shadow 2 this year and shooting CO toward end of season.
 

I could then convert it to SAO if LO is approved, right? I read that it’s pretty cheap and easy. There is no slide mounted option other than one of those goofy dove tail jobs for Tactical sport as far as I can tell. 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Covfefe

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, Covfefe said:

I could then convert to SAO if LO is approved, right?

 

You wouldn't need to convert necessarily.  I imagine you could just start hammer locked safety on for LO and Hammer down for CO.  From my understanding you can get a better trigger with the SAO conversion which will give you a slightly better trigger in SAO, I do not think its necessary.  The Shadow 2 is kind of the perfect gun for both CO and the proposed LO Divisions. 

 

They make an optic version of the Shadow 2 that used CZ adapter plates.  Pretty slick setup.  If I were to buy that is the direction I would lean.  

 

Edited January 18, 2023 by Boomstick303