Limited Optics

[pskys2]

28 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I think this is ultimately what will happen; Just about every production gun out there has mag-wells available, either factory or 3rd party. Add in the thumb-rests and I suspect CO will lose a lot of shooters practically overnight.

At the least the shiny new toy syndrome

Been in this since 1978 and have all but one of those shiny toys still, and wished I'd listened to the wife and not let the Caspian hi cap with jet comp and pdp3 go.

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, MikeRussell said:

Just put Prod & CO at 15 rounds, institute Limited & LO keeping all the current Ltd Div rules, get rid of L10 (provisions are already in the rules for mag ban states), leave everything else alone. Problem solved. 

But then the 12 9mm 2011 fans hollering for LO will have to shoot against major guns. 

[Boomstick303]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

Hopefully one or both will get used in USPSA modified division in three gun as well

 

I need to read up on Modified Division.  I have an idea from random threads I have read on this forum.  I hope to participate in some 3 Gun in 2023.  I have the stuff just never shot a match yet.  

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I need to read up on Modified Division.  I have an idea from random threads I have read on this forum.  I hope to participate in some 3 Gun in 2023.  I have the stuff just never shot a match yet.  

 

Basically tacops, but you get a slide ride dot on your pistol and a dot on the shotgun. I don't think either one is mandatory though 

[Boomstick303]

7 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

But then the 12 9mm 2011 fans hollering for LO will have to shoot against major guns. 

 

I would be fine with this.  A 40 with an Optic would be cool.  Not my preference but I can see how it makes more sense than CO and LO minor only division.  

[deerslayer]

4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I would be fine with this.  A 40 with an Optic would be cool.  Not my preference but I can see how it makes more sense than CO and LO minor only division.  

I would be too.  A Limited major gun with a slide mounted dot would be a force to be reckoned with.  Or it may be a dot destroyer lol.  But I suspect some on here would be badly disappointed if major were allowed.  

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, deerslayer said:

Or it may be a dot destroyer lol.

 

Maybe a Frame mounted optic is not a bad idea if LO included Major.  

[-JCN-]

On 12/29/2022 at 5:12 PM, ltdmstr said:

 

Well, that's only part of the equation.  What about the trade-offs?  Many have issues with reliability, durability, size, weight, use in low light situations.   Plus, the added cost.  I understand most of those aren't a major factor for competitive shooters.  But for LEOs and carry they certainly are. 

LEO academies are largely training and issuing dot guns now so institutionally they have decided that the juice is worth the squeeze. Red dots EXCEL in low light, my man. 

 

 

18 hours ago, ltdmstr said:

Bottom line is, I don't need a dot for EDC and don't see any advantage to having one.

You’re a barely B class shooter. Skill or lack thereof dwarfs equipment differences. Not surprised you don’t need or see and advantage to having one. 
 

It’s like saying that my grandma wouldn’t benefit from snow tires. Which is true. 
 

But she also doesn’t do anything that would require snow tires. 
 

She’s also dead. 
.

.

.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by -JCN-

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I would be fine with this.  A 40 with an Optic would be cool.  Not my preference but I can see how it makes more sense than CO and LO minor only division.  

 

5 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I would be too.  A Limited major gun with a slide mounted dot would be a force to be reckoned with.  Or it may be a dot destroyer lol.  But I suspect some on here would be badly disappointed if major were allowed.  

 

It would pretty much suck if it is a major/minor division. For a million reasons already discussed ad nauseum 

[MikeRussell]

24 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

But then the 12 9mm 2011 fans hollering for LO will have to shoot against major guns. 

 

I guess they'll just have to cry.

 

I will not shoot LO seriously unless it's got major pf included. If it's just minor, then I'll use a currently legal CO gun, get classified, then probably not shoot it again. 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

It would pretty much suck if it is a major/minor division. For a million reasons already discussed ad nauseum 

 

I get it.  If I had to bet I bet it is minor only.   If it is true and multiple manufacturers are a major driver in creation of this Division I cannot imagine any of them are pushing Major PF in the Division.   That is pure speculation on my part.  

[deerslayer]

11 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

It would pretty much suck if it is a major/minor division. For a million reasons already discussed ad nauseum 

The only reasons I’ve seen on here are different variations of “I don’t like .40.”  

[MikeRussell]

1 minute ago, deerslayer said:

The only reasons I’ve seen on here are different variations of “I don’t like .40.”  

 

And the "40 is dead, old man" exclamations... usually pointing out Nils won with minor, but ignoring that he is a phenom. 

[deerslayer]

1 minute ago, MikeRussell said:

 

And the "40 is dead, old man" exclamations... usually pointing out Nils won with minor, but ignoring that he is a phenom. 

…and arguing that Nils won with a Canik and proved that SAO/2011 is irrelevant while ignoring the argument that he won shooting minor and thus proved that major is also irrelevant.  If major is not necessary to win, why are they so against it?  What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.  

[BritinUSA]

42 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

If it is true and multiple manufacturers are a major driver in creation of this Division I cannot imagine any of them are pushing Major PF in the Division.   That is pure speculation on my part.  

I've suggested the same myself; There is no new money in a LO division with Major/Minor scoring. A slide cut and a dot will not generate any new revenue for 2011 builders as most existing Limited 2011's are Major caliber.

 

If they go with Minor only then at the very least it's a whole new top-end and magazines too. 

[ltdmstr]

12 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

LEO academies are largely training and issuing dot guns now so institutionally they have decided that the juice is worth the squeeze. Red dots EXCEL in low light, my man. 

 

 

You’re a barely B class shooter. Skill or lack thereof dwarfs equipment differences. Not surprised you don’t need or see and advantage to having one. 
 

It’s like saying that my grandma wouldn’t benefit from snow tires. Which is true. 
 

But she also doesn’t do anything that would require snow tires. 
 

She’s also dead. 
.

.

.

 

 

I don't follow the LEO market, but I do know much of what they do is aimed at reducing cost.  And the solutions they come up with in their effort to save money are rarely optimal.  Bottom line is a RDS will get a larger number of people past a standards qualification with less time and training.  What that's worth in the real world is not much in terms of their actual performance on the job.  Also, several agencies local to me have looked at RDS for pistols and decided not the go that route.  Same for their SWAT group.  So, even if it's the hot new thing, it's far from universally accepted at this point.

 

As for how well red dots excel in low light, maybe check my comment above for a real-world example.

 

And regarding my classification and equipment needs, you have no idea what my physical limitations or other impediments are or how those impact what I shoot or how I shoot.  Or how I might or might not benefit from going to a RDS.  If my vision sucks, and the biggest reason I'm not moving up is because my accuracy suffers as a result, seems to me going to a RDS would be a huge advantage.  But you're saying that at my level, I lack the skills to enjoy any benefit from an equipment change?  It could be exactly the opposite.  So, it's just a dumb comment with no factual basis.  And too bad your granny is dead.  If she were around, maybe she could school you on reason, logic and manners.

[RJH]

59 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

The only reasons I’ve seen on here are different variations of “I don’t like .40.”  

 

56 minutes ago, MikeRussell said:

 

And the "40 is dead, old man" exclamations... usually pointing out Nils won with minor, but ignoring that he is a phenom. 

 

If that is the reasoning y'all have picked up, y'all have missed 99% of it but, whatever 

[RangerTrace]

40 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I've suggested the same myself; There is no new money in a LO division with Major/Minor scoring. A slide cut and a dot will not generate any new revenue for 2011 builders as most existing Limited 2011's are Major caliber.

 

If they go with Minor only then at the very least it's a whole new top-end and magazines too. 

I would argue this.  I think Atlas and MPA are pumping out a huge amount of 9mm, slide ride, dot guns.

[RangerTrace]

Too bad for you guys that y'all are my only entertainment this weekend as I'm stuck in the house recovering from neck fusion surgery.  Please keep up the funny posts while minding your manners.

[Boomstick303]

56 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

There is no new money in a LO division with Major/Minor scoring.

 

That is a good point.  

[BritinUSA]

42 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

I would argue this.  I think Atlas and MPA are pumping out a huge amount of 9mm, slide ride, dot guns.

...and that's why it will be Minor only, regardless of any survey or comments the members might make.

[rishii]

My take as someone who’s been doing this longer than most (I shot my 1st match in 1985) and have guns that haven’t seen the light of day in years

If they do approve, I hope the also approve frame mounted optic and major

like shred said with a frame mounted optic, ether cut off the comp or rebarrel an old open gun 

with major remove the bomar and put on a red dot, both of which is a hell lot cheaper than buying a staccatoatlasprodgy or whatever new blaster their trying to push

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

I think this is ultimately what will happen; Just about every production gun out there has mag-wells available, either factory or 3rd party. Add in the thumb-rests and I suspect CO will lose a lot of shooters practically overnight.

 

The C, D, and forever B class guys will rush over to add more crap to their guns in the hopes of doing better.  Probably half will stay there and half will go back to CO.  That'll be about it as far as crossover.

 

We'll also have an inrush of tactards, 95% of which will disappear after their first couple of matches when they can't figure out why they keep getting spanked by people with striker and DA/SA guns, no leg strap on their holster, and no IFAK/tourniquet on their belt..

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[outerlimits]

9 minutes ago, rishii said:

My take as someone who’s been doing this longer than most (I shot my 1st match in 1985) and have guns that haven’t seen the light of day in years

If they do approve, I hope the also approve frame mounted optic and major

like shred said with a frame mounted optic, ether cut off the comp or rebarrel an old open gun 

with major remove the bomar and put on a red dot, both of which is a hell lot cheaper than buying a staccatoatlasprodgy or whatever new blaster their trying to push

got ya beat by a year, Ray.  but i agree.  but while were adding classes to the mix for participation trophies, let's add a class called the "classics".  i have a few in the safe waiting to be fed.  single stack, no optics, major (old major) only.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, outerlimits said:

got ya beat by a year, Ray.  but i agree.  but while were adding classes to the mix for participation trophies, let's add a class called the "classics".  i have a few in the safe waiting to be fed.  single stack, no optics, major (old major) only.

 

With the exception of major only, isn't that pretty much single stack? Or at worst L10?