Round Dumping And Reloading From Slide Lock Vs.

[Chills1994]

Ok, I'm still a newbie at this IDPA stuff....

Shot an "IDPA style match" last night at a local indoor range. One of the stages was set up to do a Mozambique on two targets, retreat while maintaining muzzle discipline, get behind another cover, fire at least two shots each to 3 more targets, advance to another cover, and engage 3 more targets two shots each, reload as necessary. A total of 8 targets and a minimum of 18 rounds.

So I'm thinking where would be the best place to reload? I'm shooting a .45 1911 in CDP holding 9 rounds (8 +1). Mmmnn...Go ahead and fire 3 into the 3rd target, gun goes to slide lock, drop magazine, reload, hit the slide release, and engage targets 4-8 with two shots each just like usual.

Afterwards, the SO tells me that had that been an actual IDPA match I would have been penalized with a Failure To Do Right. To that I said OK and I told him it was not very "tactical" to pump 3 rounds into #3.

Does that sound right to you guys?

Also, a rule clarification here.....If there is one round still in the pipe and the mag is empty, do I have to retain the magazine?

Said another way: Is the only permissible time to drop a mag is when the gun is at slide lock?

I did a search using the phrase "round dumping" and came up with a thread over a year old, by the way.

Thanks,

Chills

____

"Having hand grenades makes you forget you're carrying a pistol."

From a returning National Guardsman

[ima45dv8]

Also, a rule clarification here.....If there is one round still in the pipe and the mag is empty, do I have to retain the magazine?

Yes.

[Ted Murphy]

Also, a rule clarification here.....If there is one round still in the pipe and the mag is empty, do I have to retain the magazine?

Yes. It's in the rulebook, pp 41

Dumping rounds earning an FTDR is discussed on pp 14/15

Ted

[Joe D]

Of all the dumb rules IDPA has the dumping one has to take the cake. Someone please tell me how to read a shooter's mind. How can an SO give a FTDR to someone that fires three rounds into a target instead of two?

Shooter's response to being accused for dumping - "I thought my second shot was a -3 so I shot a make up." "I thought I had a miss so I made up a shot". "I was making up a -1".

Let's get real here, you will never get a penality from me for firing an extra round on any stage I SO.

[Scout454]

If you're going to dump, throw a miss during the transition. Then it isn't a dump, you made up a miss.

[JD45]

There is no penalty for firing an extra shot on a Vickers count stage. How is someone going to prove it was an intentional FTDR and not just an extra shot? If someone can figure out a way to place blame on every shooter fairly I'd like to know how.

There happens to be a totally fair remedy if they would allow it. I think it's called a speed reload.

[Duane Thomas]

The round dumping thing is just about impossible to prove. IDPA HQ even mentions that fact in the Rule Book. That doesn't mean it's not still cheating. I refuse to do it.

In order to get away with round dumping, all a competitor has to do is....lie. I really don't see the attraction to being a liar as well as a cheater.

[vincent]

I'm staying out of this one.

[smokshwn]

I guess it's nice to know the only way one maintains their integrity as an honest person is to never make up hits on targets which happen to be placed in the COF near a reload.

God forbid you actually make up a poor hit.

Craig

[Precision40]

All politics aside, in IDPA, dumping rounds really doesn't save you any time since the stages are so small (<18rds)

Lets say you "dump" 3 shots, those shots may add an additional 2-3 unnecessary seconds to your raw time, you STILL have to reload from behind cover. Is 2-3 extra seconds worth it just to reload from slide-lock? No. If you shoot it straight forward, retreat to cover and do a reload with retention, it shouldn't take more than 2-3 seconds, see what I'm saying?

When I do a reload and have to do a RWR, dumping a mag into the pocket takes about 1 sec, picking up and inserting the new mag takes about 1.5 sec. Weigh the extra time you take dumping rounds against the actual time it takes you to do a reload and that should dicate what works for you.

I don't even conisder making up a shot unless there is a HUGE advantage by doing so, which is extremely rare in IDPA.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Precision40

[Joe D]

Most "dumps" will be only one round per stage. One extra round is at worst a .20 split. I will always make up a -3. Have made up a -1 on a close target. Figure I picked up .30 sec.

The rules I have a problem with are the ones that cannot be enforced.

A Vickers count stage says you may fire as many rounds at a target as you choose.

The other dumb rule is having to retain an empty mag. Come on Bill get rid of the IPSC phobia once and for all.

Always question [edit] rules and [edit] authority.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Flexmoney

[postal]

welcome to fight night {not a i.d.p.a. sanctioned match}

and I wasn’t the so on that stage, but was on the other side

Also, a rule clarification here.....If there is one round still in the pipe and the mag is empty, do I have to retain the magazine?

Said another way: Is the only permissible time to drop a mag is when the gun is at slide lock?

Yep that’s the rule, only on slide lock can you dump the mag

As afar as round dumping, yes it can be given a penalty, if both of your first rounds are a zero score, and at that distance would be blatant

The stage he is referring to as he described t-1, t-2 Mozambique {7yrds}, retreat a short distance to a barrier, t-3,4and 5 receive two rounds{5 yrds}, then advance to a short barrier requiring one knee on the ground to shoot t-7-8{7 yrds}

t-3,4,5 where so close to each other round dumping wasn’t really warranted {almost over lapping}, the transition time to t-4 should not have been anymore but .10-.20 seconds slower than the time to dump that extra round

[wsimpso1]

I actually have three reasons not to dump rounds. The first two relate to your own personal ethics, and possibly to the tolerance or lack therof in your SO's. The last one has to do with poisoning your mental state:

It is cheating;

It requires lying - Even if you do not say it, the lie of "I made up a bad shot" is still there;

To get away with it, you would really need to deliberately miss or shoot a -3. Now, if you have been paying attention to what Brian and many of the others on this forum are trying to teach us, you would know what comes next. This means deliberately doing something that you really do not to do. Do you really want to poison the process of making center hits automatic? Shooting for something other than the highest scoring parts of the target are bad for your mental capacity to shoot as fast as you can see.

I know, what about leading movers and swingers, or dealing with no shoots? Don't we have to aim off of the 0/A box for those shots? Sure we do, and we develop our mindset for hitting them well too. And we are always focused on getting good hits too.

Practicing and metally rehearsing bad shots is a net loser for our total technique. So, even if you are a cheat and liar, and the issue of ethics does not bother you (and that will get around and result in FTDR and procedural penalties), it will result in downgrading your total game.

Billski

[p99shooter]

There's really no advantage to shooting the course like you did, dumping that third round into T3. All you did was save yourself the trouble of remembering that T4 already had one round in it before you reloaded. No time advantage was gained at all.

The only times that you would really want to do that is at the last target of an array, before engaging the next array. That way you don't go to slide like in the middle of an array, and don't have to do a reload with retention on the way to the next array.

But I don't advocate this; I'm with Duane here.

[PJONES5]

I'm staying out of this one.

me to

pat

[Mayonaise]

Is an FTDR warranted when an SO overhears a shooter discussing dumping a round prior to shooting and then does it, even if it's only one round?

[Gregg K]

I'm staying out of this one.

As I read the first post I was wondering if you were watching this one. A sore subject that I'm sure your tired of by now.

[tightloop]

AAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RickB]

Is an FTDR warranted when an SO overhears a shooter discussing dumping a round prior to shooting and then does it, even if it's only one round?

I might ding the guy for being dumb enough to talk about it.

As already mentioned, it is all but impossible to enforce dumping, when it is at odds with Vickers scoring. The only time I was actually about to ding a guy for it, was when he engaged three targets, at less than seven yards, with three each. As he was performing a slidelock reload, I caught the eye of the scorekeeper, and was gesturing for a penalty, when the shooter engaged the remaining targets with three each. I couldn't very well ding the guy for wanting to put an insurance shot on everything. If he had put two-each on every target, after three-each on the initial array, then an argument for dumping could be made, but the three extra shots would just about balance the reload time, so what's the point? I like the idea of no dumping, in principle, but just don't see how to enforce it.

Edited December 8, 2005 by RickB

[Clay1]

P99shooter said: "and don't have to do a reload with retention on the way to the next array."

P43 of the rule book: " All reloads must be executed from cover (if cover is available) and must be completed before leaving cover. A shooter is deemed loaded and may move from a position of cover ONLY when the fresh magazine is FULLY SEATED and the slide is fully forward or revolver cylinder is closed. Shooters may not move from one position of cover to another with an empty gun. Reloads must be completed from cover, however this does not mean that a shooter must duck back completely behind cover to reload before reengaging targets from a stationary firing point. The contestant may keep his eyes on his next “opponent” as long as he follows the definition of cover and does not expose too much of his body to the next threat target."

In other words, you can't reload on the way to another array.

Now to the main question of round dumping. I understand the intent of the rule. I didn't get to write the rule book, I just have to enforce it. I think much of the issue comes from the FTDR sledgehammer that the SO has to use. A simple procedural would have been a much better option in this case. A 3 second procedural would have been a sufficient penalty. Again, a 20 second wack is not appropriate for the crime. But again, I didn't write the rules.

A round dumping penalty would be easier to call if the shooter shoots two "down zeros" and then moves the gun and dumps one into the backstop. That would be a reason for enforcing the rule, but 3 shots on paper is unenforceable in my opinion.

Rick

[ima45dv8]

Rick,

I'm not sure I would call it a 20 second whack as much as an accusation of cheating. And that's what rubs me wrong about the whole thing. Having a rule that allows someone to brand me as a cheater for honestly making up a shot is......wrong.

[jm951]

Dunno, maybe a triple tap isn't "tactically sound"? I've taken a third shot from time to time to make up for a bad one. Unless the rules are set to specifically call for 2 and only 2 rounds per target, you will get folks taking extra shots. If it's on paper, dumping will be very hard to prove.

[Joe D]

I hope I did not ruffle too many feathers here. Things were getting a little boring.

Flex, my comment about rules and authority was just a general feeling I have about some issues not directed at anyone in particular. My apologies.

I guess one thing I don't buy into, as mentioned by others, is this Zen thing. Folks have the right to buy into it if they choose. I have never been one of those "sit at the feet of the master" kind of guys. I would rather find my own drum to march to.

[Duane Thomas]

I guess it's nice to know the only way one maintains their integrity as an honest person is to never make up hits on targets which happen to be placed in the COF near a reload.

God forbid you actually make up a poor hit.

No one every said you can't make up a bad shot. There's a big difference between "making up a bad shot" and "deliberately dumping rounds to do a slidelock instead of reload with retention."

[Merlin Orr]

AAAAAAAAAArrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1

With great respect for all. IF I did not know the people who responded to this thread - and, as a "new guy" read this thread - and all like it where IDPA rules about this and like subjects are "discussed." I would wonder why anyone would want you to shoot a sport with complex and subjective rules. It appears that its totally dependent on who is the SO on rules interpretations. Where it appears that something as simple as a make up shot could be penalized to the extent as to effectively put someone out of the running for a complete match. Reading threads about rules and the heated discussions about how hard to slap the competitor for various infractions scared me off even trying IDPA for 4 years after I first thought of trying it... I wonder how many others?