Sight Picture (Rules) Question

[RickT]

When does the minute start?  I presume at make ready which usually occurs as soon as the shooter steps in the box.  It's not unusual for folks shooting two guns to take a good junk of time just to get to the point where they can take a sight picture with the first gun.  Good Tier 1 matches have the score keeping announcing the next two shooters up; a great deal of time can be wasted just getting the next shooter to the box, particularly for those matches that don't paint between shooters (Yes, the rules do "require" same).

[GigG]

On 8/12/2022 at 6:49 PM, outerlimits said:

pdp 2's were tanks, but the tube was too small.  pdp3's had 30mm tubes that were thin and depending on the mount, broke all the time.  back then, noel alfaro would make replacement tubes that were thicker and were 35mm.  still have one.

 

and before that, we all walked around with black splotches on our shirts-sight black, baby!  and before sight black, we used carbide lighters for sight black.  

 

ok, now i am dating myself.

 

Oh hell yes.  I remember the Coke Can 35mm including one guy that painted his to look like a coke can.

 

Sight Black,  ah the memories.

[bigdawgbeav]

On 8/12/2022 at 8:28 PM, RickT said:

When does the minute start?  I presume at make ready which usually occurs as soon as the shooter steps in the box.  It's not unusual for folks shooting two guns to take a good junk of time just to get to the point where they can take a sight picture with the first gun.  Good Tier 1 matches have the score keeping announcing the next two shooters up; a great deal of time can be wasted just getting the next shooter to the box, particularly for those matches that don't paint between shooters (Yes, the rules do "require" same).

The 1 minute starts at the "Make Ready" command.  Ideally the next shooter should be stepping into the box and staging what they need as soon as the previous shooter vacates.  So while the plates are being painted the shooter can stage mags, air gun, etc.  Everything but open the gun case or unholster.  Then when they are given the "Make Ready" all they should be doing is prepping the gun, taking a couple of actual sight pictures and moving on.  

 

I have had to remind many shooters that it is perfectly fine to be in the box and prepping non-firearm items while waiting for the range to clear of painters.  While it's their prerogative, from an RO and moving the match along standpoint it is kind of annoying when the shooter still stands outside the box holding their cases and waiting for the command.  Then they step in and finally start getting prepped after "Make Ready".  Even more annoying when it's Showdown and the shooter puts the case down and THEN stages a couple mags on the other table.  Yea, I know they get 1 minute, but all of that could have been accomplished while the plates were being painted.  

[GOF]

On 6/17/2022 at 5:46 PM, hornetx40 said:

 If the shooter is following the rules, what is it that you can't stand. If the shooter takes 100 swings at the first plate inside of the time limit who cares. Why is it that RO's are bothered by people doing things in a different manner. An RO is not their to judge the shooter on style, just on safety and score. The RO is there to serve the shooters and the match not the other way around.

A Big +1. If it's within the Rules it's perfectly legal. Some folks need to get over it.

[Gregg K]

8 hours ago, bigdawgbeav said:

I have had to remind many shooters that it is perfectly fine to be in the box and prepping non-firearm items while waiting for the range to clear of painters. 

I have seen many shooters stand outside the box and when I encourage them to get in and get settled but don't touch or un-bag their firearm while the painters are working they tell me that they were told that it's against the rules and they would be DQ'ed. I have herd this many times from all sorts of people so somewhere some knucklehead is telling people this nonsense. In fairness you really have to stay on top of a first time shooter to wait until the "Make Ready" to handle his firearm so it is probably a range rule at some club venues. RO just needs to be paying attention.

[AR_James]

1 hour ago, Gregg K said:

I have seen many shooters stand outside the box and when I encourage them to get in and get settled but don't touch or un-bag their firearm while the painters are working they tell me that they were told that it's against the rules and they would be DQ'ed. I have herd this many times from all sorts of people so somewhere some knucklehead is telling people this nonsense. 

 

I competed at one club that would not allow you to even step into the box until the RO gave the make ready command.  That was a first for me.  So, those type clubs/RO's are out there.  

[RaylanGivens]

If you want to take a couple of sight pictures or whatever...  Tell the RO you'll say 'Ready' when you're ready to shoot...  Just don't go over the minute...  Lots of shooters around here do that.

[zzt]

46 minutes ago, RaylanGivens said:

If you want to take a couple of sight pictures or whatever...  Tell the RO you'll say 'Ready' when you're ready to shoot...  Just don't go over the minute...  Lots of shooters around here do that.

 

So what do you do?  The rules don't have a penalty for that.

[outerlimits]

1 minute ago, zzt said:

 

So what do you do?  The rules don't have a penalty for that.

start them or call the next shooter.

[AR_James]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

 

So what do you do?  The rules don't have a penalty for that.

 

Would it fall under 10.1.4 as a violation of the stage procedure?  So, a three second penalty for each occurrence.  

 

 

 

[warpspeed]

On 6/19/2022 at 12:37 PM, egd5 said:

Just curiosity, but are the ones who are worst at all the repeated draws, etc., etc. the ones who only think they're fast and wouldn't make the top 20 anyway?

That'd be my guess.

 

IDK - I'll have to pay attention. 

[zzt]

10 hours ago, AR_James said:

 

Would it fall under 10.1.4 as a violation of the stage procedure?  So, a three second penalty for each occurrence.  

 

 

 

 

I don't think so.  It is a rule book rule, not a stage procedure.   I like the start them idea.  It would cause an argument, but so what.  Alternately, I could threaten a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct and failing to obey a valid RO command.   Fortunately a 'hey, you only get a minute' has worked so far.

[RaylanGivens]

On 8/19/2022 at 7:04 PM, zzt said:

So what do you do?  The rules don't have a penalty for that.

 

Why would there be a penalty?  As long as you're under a minute you're good to go.

[zzt]

6 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

 

Why would there be a penalty?  As long as you're under a minute you're good to go.

 

I was talking about a shooter who took more than a minute and did not comply with an order to stop.

[bigdawgbeav]

On 8/15/2022 at 10:08 PM, AR_James said:

 

I competed at one club that would not allow you to even step into the box until the RO gave the make ready command.  That was a first for me.  So, those type clubs/RO's are out there.  

I would then ask them to quote the rule that they would DQ you under.  Or what rule prohibits you from entering the box before "Make Ready"  (hint: no such rules exist)

 

Just like one club near me that tells it's new shooters that they will be DQ'd for sweeping if they reach in front of the muzzle when zipping or unzipping the bag, even if their hands are free from the firearm.  That is NOT sweeping.  10.3.6 makes that perfectly clear.

Edited August 23, 2022 by bigdawgbeav

[zzt]

There are clubs out there that err on the opposite end.  At a Steel match, club shall remain unnamed, a PCC shooter uncase his gun behind all the shooters and swept many of them while on the way to the shooting box.  The MD was apprised of this and said "We play by big boy rules here".   Shooter was not DQ'd and I'll never go back.

 

Several years ago at an East Coast Steel Challenge Match several PCC shooters were DQ'd on one squad for 180 violations.  Their offence?  Carrying the PCC vertically and having the muzzle drift back a few inches.  Explaining to the USPSA only RO that 'reasonably vertical' meant just that.  He said no.  They broke 180 so DQ.  I know it was referred to the RM and DM, but don't know what the results were.  I'm not confident.

 

At that same match I was running a permanently disabled shooter on OL.  He told me the MD had allowed him to shoot OL without moving and without penalty.  I ran the shooter without penalty, passed the timer to another RO and went to see the MD.  He said yes.  The rule was if a shooter was permanently disabled there was no penalty.  However, if only temporarily disabled, as in a broken leg, the penalty applied.  I said that made no sense.  There was no such rule.  He insisted.  It isn't the first time that MD got a rule wrong.

Edited August 23, 2022 by zzt

[Thomas H]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:32 AM, zzt said:

 

I was talking about a shooter who took more than a minute and did not comply with an order to stop.

 

If they take over a minute, at the one minute mark you have them unload/show clear/bag and move out of the shooting area, put them at the bottom of the shooting list, and move to the next shooter, just like anyone else who isn't ready to shoot when they are called to the line.  (I'll note if they attempt to ignore that or argue with an order to stop, then you can tell them their choice is to either be put at the bottom of the shooting order, OR instead receive a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct and failing to follow the clear directions of a range official.  Because if they are that stupid, then they ARE actually courting a DQ.)

 

If they do it upon their next try (after being at the bottom of the shooting order), you assign a procedural penalty (the make ready sequence is a rule-defined set of procedures during the course of fire, and if they don't follow it, especially after being specifically told the rule the first time, they get a procedural penalty.  It doesn't have to be written in the WSB for it to be a stage procedure, IF it is defined in the rulebook as a stage procedure.)  They are the last in the order, so it isn't like you can move them down again. 

 

I suppose that technically, if they are last AND they are not ready to shoot the stage, you can DNF them, tell them to move to the next stage, and that they will need to speak to the RM about coming back at a later time to shoot the stage, just like any OTHER time a shooter comes to a stage and is not ready to shoot by the time that the squad has finished the stage.  But that is being petty, and while legal, not a good way to handle things.

 

I personally haven't run into any shooter that took over a minute to make ready, though some have pushed it.  I don't care if they push close---they get a minute.  Reminding them that their minute is up in 5 seconds (at 55 seconds) works perfectly well.  If after a minute they aren't ready, unload them and move on.  It doesn't have to be a major problem.

[Thomas H]

On 8/23/2022 at 4:16 PM, zzt said:

There are clubs out there that err on the opposite end.  At a Steel match, club shall remain unnamed, a PCC shooter uncase his gun behind all the shooters and swept many of them while on the way to the shooting box.  The MD was apprised of this and said "We play by big boy rules here".   Shooter was not DQ'd and I'll never go back.

 

Several years ago at an East Coast Steel Challenge Match several PCC shooters were DQ'd on one squad for 180 violations.  Their offence?  Carrying the PCC vertically and having the muzzle drift back a few inches.  Explaining to the USPSA only RO that 'reasonably vertical' meant just that.  He said no.  They broke 180 so DQ.  I know it was referred to the RM and DM, but don't know what the results were.  I'm not confident.

 

At that same match I was running a permanently disabled shooter on OL.  He told me the MD had allowed him to shoot OL without moving and without penalty.  I ran the shooter without penalty, passed the timer to another RO and went to see the MD.  He said yes.  The rule was if a shooter was permanently disabled there was no penalty.  However, if only temporarily disabled, as in a broken leg, the penalty applied.  I said that made no sense.  There was no such rule.  He insisted.  It isn't the first time that MD got a rule wrong.

 

First situation:  Yeek.  Yeah, that sounds like a good place to get shot by idiots.  That's terrifying.

 

Second situation:  It never ceases to amaze me how many people don't understand that the 180 is relevant during the course of fire, wherein taking a loaded firearm and pointing it vertically past the 180 IS a DQ.....and that outside the course of fire, carrying an unloaded PCC/rifle vertically is literally the best choice possible, and also literally the specifically described method for doing so from an unbagging area to the start position, and is most definitely NOT a DQ.

 

Most of the time, people I run into get the first part wrong (they think that in the course of fire, having it vertical then turning around and running uprange or something is a perfectly good idea).  That's the first time I've heard about someone getting it wrong the other way---but I suppose it isn't surprising that people screw that up too.

 

Last situation:  It is always fun when someone makes up a rule out of nowhere, then insists on it being true.  (And then vehemently argues that they don't need to show you where it is in the rulebook.)

 

And to think---OUR sports are the ones where the rules are often handled BETTER than other sports.