Would you rather shoot Limited major with 16 rounds or Limited Min0r with 23 rounds?

[pjb45]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Single-stack is the only division allowing Major/Minor where they are remotely competitive with each other.   Even so, the extra 2 rounds (25% more!) is so rarely worth it, it's news when a top SS shooter shoots Minor at a match voluntarily.

 

Harder paper partial and far targets are an advantage with Major because there's a whole lot more scoring area that's worthwhile.  Tons of steel or stages designed by 10-round shooters is where the minor gun works better.

 

 

 

 

The last sentence is spot on.

 

Just as a side note: (off the point) I know a lot of shooters look to expand their round capacity in their mags; cutting springs, expanding the mag, different followers just to get an extra round or two.  Seems counter intuitive that people look to increase mag capacity and at the same time saying it does not matter.  Apparently it matters to them.

 

J Williams was second at A2 (around 2017) shooting minor-- as a minor.   

 

[motosapiens]

47 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

Are you saying Taran is not an elite pistol shooter?

Is this a conclusion based on evidence and facts?

 

yes and yes. taran is good, but not a national top5 that ive ever seen. Sevigny otoh is pretty frequently there.

[pjb45]

6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

yes and yes. taran is good, but not a national top5 that ive ever seen. Sevigny otoh is pretty frequently there.

Show us the facts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

11 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Show us the facts.

 

if you know of Taran ever placing in the top 5 at a national handgun event, please post. I searched without success, and I have personally seen him shoot at several nationals. Sevigny otoh was in the top 5 of the first 2 nationals I looked at.

[Sinister4]

41 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

if you know of Taran ever placing in the top 5 at a national handgun event, please post. I searched without success, and I have personally seen him shoot at several nationals. Sevigny otoh was in the top 5 of the first 2 nationals I looked at.

I think Sevigny won 14 Nationals in all  various divisions

[Racinready300ex]

On 1/28/2022 at 3:53 PM, pjb45 said:

To be fair? 

How many different shooting disciplines does Dave shoot? The breadth and depth of Taran's skill is well documented Dave's is not well known.

I believe one year Taran won something like 15 guns across all disciplines.

 

 

uuhhh.... When you said Dave S. you're talking Dave Sevigny right? Quick google, he's won 13 USPSA nationals, 9 IDPA Nationals, a IPSC world Championship, a bunch or steel challenge nationals, NRA action pistol nationals, bianchi cup nationals etc. etc. 

 

Unless you're referring to a different Dave S.

 

[Patrickxx]

20 hours ago, pjb45 said:

The last sentence is spot on.

 

Just as a side note: (off the point) I know a lot of shooters look to expand their round capacity in their mags; cutting springs, expanding the mag, different followers just to get an extra round or two.  Seems counter intuitive that people look to increase mag capacity and at the same time saying it does not matter.  Apparently it matters to them.

 

J Williams was second at A2 (around 2017) shooting minor-- as a minor.   

 

More reliable rounds in a length limited magazine is better you are maximizing the capacity. It’s kinda like extra insurance. An extreme example would be open on a stage with 19 rounds I am gonna load my big stick and have the extra shots in the gun even if I don’t them.  I think they are saying it doesn’t matter in this case since both are limited by a hard number round count. If I had to chose I would probably shoot major but have a back up minor gun if there looked to be an edge or a ton of steel I would shoot minor. 

[Sinister4]

Question for those who have been around forever in the sport, was the original idea of minor and major scoring to make the competition "equal" as possible ?  Now if that was the idea then why not take all the modern data we have and re-evaluate the current scoring, be it one way or the other ?  Or do you think the current system as it is is as fair as possible given the actual match results in lets say the last 10 years ?  

Edited January 31, 2022 by Sinister4

[sfinney]

If you want the god's honest truth my opinion - back when there was no divisions at all, or later Limited, Major / Minor were invented by the single stack disciples to make it "more real" and not a game of mouse guns - and force .45 cal as the cal of choice. Preferably a 1911. Not sure it was ever supposed to make it "fair" imho.

 

38 Super and hicap mags put an end to .45 -  Then .40 Para and 2011 took over Limited. Round count was king, and you could still make major with 38 Stupid or .40 short and weak.

[Racinready300ex]

3 hours ago, Sinister4 said:

Question for those who have been around forever in the sport, was the original idea of minor and major scoring to make the competition "equal" as possible ?  Now if that was the idea then why not take all the modern data we have and re-evaluate the current scoring, be it one way or the other ?  Or do you think the current system as it is is as fair as possible given the actual match results in lets say the last 10 years ?  

 

My understanding, (I wasn't around then either) the intent wasn't to make them equal. It was more like the gun that was easier to shoot needed to give something up.

 

 

Edit, if you think about it. If they were equal why would anyone ever shoot major? Minor is cheaper, easier to shoot, easier on your equipment and easier on your wrists. If you want people to shoot major and deal with recoil you need to give them a reason to do so. If we don't want people shoot major, then we should get rid of it. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[caspian guy]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

My understanding, (I wasn't around then either) the intent wasn't to make them equal. It was more like the gun that was easier to shoot needed to give something up.

 

 

Edit, if you think about it. If they were equal why would anyone ever shoot major? Minor is cheaper, easier to shoot, easier on your equipment and easier on your wrists. If you want people to shoot major and deal with recoil you need to give them a reason to do so. If we don't want people shoot major, then we should get rid of it. 

Some thinking about the martial thinking that started the sport is probably useful in understanding why somethings are how they are (I don't take any position on the validity of that thinking or if things should still be that way but it is what it is) The older rule books may have made more of this but it's Dvc... Speed power accuracy...  That was intended to be a governing principal of the sport.... The founders felt that a more powerful handgun was more effective but that power without speed and accuracy wasn't enough (go look up Jeff Cooper for the some quotes on that.) but with some notion that upper center of mass hits (or hits in the eye box) were likely just as effective with a less powerful gun....  The uspsa target has changed over the years but the scoring zones were put where they are for a reason.

 

 

[Sinister4]

29 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Interesting, so back in the day the idea was to "force" people to shoot major if they wanted to score higher, as the powers that be did not think that 9mm was a good enough round to actually use in a real life type situation, I guess I look at it as more of a sport coming from a variety of shooting sports and moving into this.  I can see this idea now,  going by the DVC  thing.  Perhaps .45 acp/ 10mm should even be given a larger "bump" in scoring over .40 or .38 super but I guess the power factor kind of addresses that aspect of it 

[waktasz]

Stopping power, bro. 

[Sinister4]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Stopping power, bro. 

yeah I carry a .40 

[twodownzero]

I wouldn't do either one, because neither is competitive.

[pjb45]

7 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

uuhhh.... When you said Dave S. you're talking Dave Sevigny right? Quick google, he's won 13 USPSA nationals, 9 IDPA Nationals, a IPSC world Championship, a bunch or steel challenge nationals, NRA action pistol nationals, bianchi cup nationals etc. etc. 

 

Unless you're referring to a different Dave S.

 

You got the right guy.

 

[pjb45]

8 hours ago, motosapiens said:

if you know of Taran ever placing in the top 5 at a national handgun event, please post. I searched without success, and I have personally seen him shoot at several nationals. Sevigny otoh was in the top 5 of the first 2 nationals I looked at.

I have personally shot at his range around once a week for a few years.  Traveled with him to Nationals and the Desert Classic (Area2).

So I have probably seen him shoot more than several times.  

Your statement was Dave was an elite shooter and Taran was just very good. 

Again the breath and depth of Taran's accomplishments put him easily in the elite category of shooters.

I am not disparaging Dave for his accomplishments.

 

 

This is just from Wiki.

 

• 23 times Southwest Pistol League Champion
• 10 times California State Three-Gun Overall winner
• 5 times USPSA Multi-Gun National Tactical Champ
• 3 times Rocky Mountain 3-Gun Champion
• 5 times Fort Benning Multi-Gun winner
• 11 times SMM3G Champion
• 2 times IDPA National Champion
• USPSA Multi-gun First Ever Triple Crown Champion
• 19th (Current) South West Pistol League Combat Master
• Multi-time Steel Challenge World Champion

Edited January 31, 2022 by pjb45

[motosapiens]

13 minutes ago, pjb45 said:

I have personally shot at his range around once a week for a few years.  Traveled with him to Nationals and the Desert Classic (Area2).

 

 

This is just from Wiki.

 

• 23 times Southwest Pistol League Champion
• 10 times California State Three-Gun Overall winner
• 5 times USPSA Multi-Gun National Tactical Champ
• 3 times Rocky Mountain 3-Gun Champion
• 5 times Fort Benning Multi-Gun winner
• 11 times SMM3G Champion
• 2 times IDPA National Champion
• USPSA Multi-gun First Ever Triple Crown Champion
• 19th (Current) South West Pistol League Combat Master
• Multi-time Steel Challenge World Champion

Thank you for proving my point. He's a good pistol shooter, but has nowhere near the pistol results or resume of Dave, and a reasonable person would expect him to be 5-10% behind Dave in the same division at any pistol match.

Edited January 31, 2022 by motosapiens

[pjb45]

From TTI:

Competitive Shooting Accomplishments

• 11-Time Superstition Mountain Mystery Multi Gun Tactical Champion
• USPSA Multi Gun Triple Crown National Champion
• 4-Time USPSA Multi Gun National Tactical Champion
• 1-Time USPSA Multi Gun National Open Champion
• 1-Time USPSA Multi Gun National Limited Champion
• 3-Time IPSC World Shoot Standard Gold Medal Team Champion
• Rockcastle Shotgun Championship – Overall Winner
• 3-Time Rocky Mountain World Tactical Champion
• 5-Time Ft. Benning Multi Gun Tactical Champion
• 1-Time Ft Benning Multi Gun Open Champion
• 1 -Time Ft Benning Multi Gun Team Champion
• 2-Time LaRue Tactical Overall Champion
• FNH Midwest Tactical Champion
• FNH Midwest Open Division 1st Grandmaster
• 2-Time IDPA National Champion
• 3-Time Western States Single Stack Champion
• 2-Time USPSA Single Stack Nationals First GM Champion
• DPMS Tri Gun Challenge Tactical Champion
• AR15.com Pro-Am Match 1st Grandmaster Tactical
• USPSA Limited 10 Shootoffs Champion
• 2-Time USPSA INFINITY OPEN Limited Champion
• 5-Time Steel Challenge World Speed Shooting Champion IDPA
• 2-Time USPSA Area-1 Limited Champion
• 1-Time USPSA Area-2 Open Champion
• 4-Time USPSA Area-2 Limited Champion
• 1-Time USPSA Area-2 Tactical Champion
• 1-Time USPSA Area-5 Tactical Champion
• 1-Time USPSA Area-6 Tactical Champion
• 1-Time USPSA Area-7 Limited Champion
• 1-Time USPSA Area-8 Limited First Grandmaster
• 2-Time R&R Racing Multigun Challenge – Overall Match Winner
• West Coast Production and Single Stack Dual Championship ââ?¬â?? Single Stack
• Latin American Championships in Ecuador First GM Standard Division
• Texas State Limited [First Grandmaster]
• Texas State 3-Gun Tactical Champion
• Texas State Open Championship
• Michigan World Shoot Qualifier – Overall Winner Standard Division
• West Coast Championship Limited Champion
• 3-Time USPSA Linea De Fuego Limited Champion
• 7-Time USPSA Golden Bullet Limited Champion
• 10-Time USPSA Silver Buckle Limited Champion
• 1-Time IDPA California State Championship [SSP Champion]
• 3-Time IDPA California State Championship [ESP Champion]
• 10-Time California State 3-Gun Championship – Overall Match Winner
• X-3 Multi Gun Championship – Overall Match Winner
• 4-Time West Coast Championship Limited Champion
• XD Challenge Overall Match Winner
• GSSF Glockmeister Challenge StockMeister, Unlimited and Competition Division’s “Never Ending” Champion
• 21-Time Southwest Pistol League Champion

 

[pjb45]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

Thank you for proving my point. He's a good pistol shooter, but has nowhere near the pistol results or resume of Dave, and a reasonable person would expect him to be 5-10% behind Dave in the same division at any pistol match.

Dude, you point was not proved.  You provided diddly squat.

See above thread.

[Degnan]

My vote is for major PF with 16 rounds.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, pjb45 said:

Dude, you point was not proved.  You provided diddly squat.

See above thread.

This seems to upset you for some reason. Sure Taran is a good shooter and has lots of results in smaller pistol events and multi-gun events, but by any objective measure, Dave Sevigny is a tier higher when it comes to pistol shooting. Dave is an elite shooter, one of the very best, so comparing their scores major/minor doesn't make sense, because one would expect Dave to be ahead of Taran by MORE than the difference between major and minor. That's all. It's just math.

Edited February 1, 2022 by motosapiens

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, pjb45 said:

Dude, you point was not proved.  You provided diddly squat.

See above thread.

 

I'm with @motosapienson this one. Taran is a great shooter, and looking at his resume if we were talking about a tactical match, or a 3 gun match that would be different. But comparing him to Dave who was shooting the sport and division he dominated on the national level for a vary long time. Comparing SS to production has always been hard because generally the heat was much hotter in Prod. 

 

I generally would say the results of 1 or 2 matches doesn't prove anything, let alone narrowing it down to these two guys. 

[shred]

The origins of Power Factor are completely around Power On Target, nothing to do with less recoil to the shooter or making it fair or whatever.  

 

In a lot of ways the founders wanted things to be unfair so they could evolve the best equipment and techniques.  Hence "all guns compete together equally" (minus the recently-added watering down addendum)

 

When that turned out not to be .45 ACP and Weaver, some people left in a huff rather than adapt.

 

[pjb45]

23 hours ago, motosapiens said:

This seems to upset you for some reason. Sure Taran is a good shooter and has lots of results in smaller pistol events and multi-gun events, but by any objective measure, Dave Sevigny is a tier higher when it comes to pistol shooting. Dave is an elite shooter, one of the very best, so comparing their scores major/minor doesn't make sense, because one would expect Dave to be ahead of Taran by MORE than the difference between major and minor. That's all. It's just math.

Not really upset, just setting the record straight. 

FROM ABOVE:

To be fair? 

How many different shooting disciplines does Dave shoot? The breadth and depth of Taran's skill is well documented Dave's is not well known.

 

Go back to your original assertion.  Dave is elite shooter and Taran is what(?) a very good shooter.

Not elite USPSA or IDPA shooter but ELITE SHOOTER.  THEN it became pistol shooter.  You changed your criteria when it became apparent you were misinformed.

I am invoking the GManBart Theorem.