Would you rather shoot Limited major with 16 rounds or Limited Min0r with 23 rounds?

[dansedgli]

Imagine white knighting for other grown men. 

 

 

[motosapiens]

I hope you feel better now, lol. my apologies for leaving out the word 'pistol'. Since we were talking about pistols, I made some unwarranted assumptions that you were talking about the same thing everyone else was. Now that I see you were in your own little world, I understand your confusion.

 

Anyway, enough dick-swinging, back to the fairly silly original topic.....

Edited February 2, 2022 by motosapiens

[BritinUSA]

8 hours ago, shred said:

In a lot of ways the founders wanted things to be unfair so they could evolve the best equipment and techniques.  Hence "all guns compete together equally" (minus the recently-added watering down addendum)

When I first started around ‘89 at my local club under IPSC rules there were no divisions at all. When the compensators started showing up is when the divisions came into being (I think). I don’t recall exactly when Major/Minor became a thing, I’ve tried searching around for the old IPSC rule books, I know they were on the Global Village a long time ago.

 

I think Minor has always been 125, but Major used to be 175, then 160-170 in IPSC and 165 in USPSA. As a side note: If I remember correctly, IPSC changed the design of their poppers around the same time as the PF lowered (same time as Production I think) which makes them more likely to fall with the lower velocity.

 

I wish both IPSC/USPSA could locate/publish those old rules books so people know where all those rules came from and why. 

[sfinney]

Yes, back on topic - I pick Major, but a modified answer: Get some dang extensions/springs/followers for your 16 round .40 mags and shoot with 20 or 21 rounds. 

 

Which gun are hypothetically talking about that maxes out at 16 .40s in the 140 mag?

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, sfinney said:

Which gun are hypothetically talking about that maxes out at 16 .40s in the 140 mag?

I think what is going on here is that people who are tired of reloading and are too weak to shoot major are daydreaming about some possible rules change that would let them be competitive in A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want. If everyone agrees, I can mock the OP in person at the next local match he attends.    (note that he will still beat me if he shoots minor tho, which takes some of the severity out of my mockery).

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by motosapiens

[obsessiveshooter]

10 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I think what is going on here is that people who are tired of reloading and are too weak to shoot major are daydreaming about some possible rules change that would let them be competitive in A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want. If everyone agrees, I can mock the OP in person at the next local match he attends.    (note that he will still beat me if he shoots minor tho, which takes some of the severity out of my mockery).

 

Please mock him anyways, for all of us!

[shred]

On 2/1/2022 at 8:02 PM, BritinUSA said:

When I first started around ‘89 at my local club under IPSC rules there were no divisions at all. When the compensators started showing up is when the divisions came into being (I think). I don’t recall exactly when Major/Minor became a thing, I’ve tried searching around for the old IPSC rule books, I know they were on the Global Village a long time ago.

 

I think Minor has always been 125, but Major used to be 175, then 160-170 in IPSC and 165 in USPSA. As a side note: If I remember correctly, IPSC changed the design of their poppers around the same time as the PF lowered (same time as Production I think) which makes them more likely to fall with the lower velocity.

 

I wish both IPSC/USPSA could locate/publish those old rules books so people know where all those rules came from and why. 

Major/minor has been a thing since the very first rules (I'd say book, but it was all of 3 pages)

 

IPSC_1st_1978 Copy.pdf

 

It was done with a ballistic pendulum so there was no number associated with it as such in the beginning..  Just compared to 'standard' 45 ACP or 9mm.  Later minor was dropped down to allow for .38 Special as well.

 

Limited came to USPSA in 1992 although various clubs had their own 'tactical' or 'iron' classes (as well as their own classifications) before that.  I think Standard started in IPSC around 1992 or 1993.  It was a thing at the World Shoot in 1993.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sinister4]

35 minutes ago, shred said:

Major/minor has been a thing since the very first rules (I'd say book, but it was all of 3 pages)

 

IPSC_1st_1978 Copy.pdf 1.27 MB · 1 download

 

It was done with a ballistic pendulum so there was no number associated with it as such in the beginning..  Just compared to 'standard' 45 ACP or 9mm.  Later minor was dropped down to allow for .38 Special as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that, pretty cool info from the past !!

[ChuckS]

It was discussed in 1976...

IPSC_1976_Columbia_Conference_Minutes.pdf

 

[motosapiens]

On 2/2/2022 at 7:13 PM, obsessiveshooter said:

Please mock him anyways, for all of us!

mission complete.

[BritinUSA]

It’s interesting to see the power factors they were using back then, they had 9mm Minor as 135 and .38Super at 169, and .45 at a whopping 195.

 

[Sinister4]

On 2/3/2022 at 2:17 PM, ChuckS said:

It was discussed in 1976...

IPSC_1976_Columbia_Conference_Minutes.pdf 217.31 kB · 5 downloads

 

Nice read for sure, interesting to see how all this stuff developed, be interesting to see how it would have went if comps were not allowed in unlimited , expensive gun, maxed out ammo to get recoil down to a "minor" level. 

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

If I had to choose I’d rather have major pf then the extra 7 rounds. 

[BrianPurkiss]

Absolutely major. 
 

An extra reload on a high round count stage can easily be absorbed into movement. 
 

The MPF would provide a substantial scoring benefit. 

[Dr_Z]

I currently shoot limited with major PF. I would pick minor with 23rd over major with 16rd. My reason being, with the recent trend in the sport (more and more people shooting with red dot), I have seen increasing number of stages featuring high stake shot at significant distances, at strategically important positions (e.g. position entry or exist), all in the name of challenging dot shooters. These were often mini poppers or hard partials. Under those circumstances, major PF does not award enough advantages that outweigh the inconveniences associated with awkward reload position or risks of shooting empty. The potential of shooting empty naturally reduces the aggression on targets like steel array. Also, people often underestimate the loss associated with reloads, even for those "on the move" ones. Many so called reload on the move are within short distances that can be covered within 1 or 2 seconds. The shift in attention can easily lead to mispositioning or loss of opportunities to have gun up early and eyes on the spot, leading to longer time or worse hit. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Dr_Z

[fraizer15]

major - I need all the points I can get

[rg0634249]

He's asking what do you think is better from a scoring perspective, not what reloading setup do you have

[waktasz]

On 8/2/2022 at 9:50 PM, Dr_Z said:

I currently shoot limited with major PF. I would pick minor with 23rd over major with 16rd. My reason being, with the recent trend in the sport (more and more people shooting with red dot), I have seen increasing number of stages featuring high stake shot at significant distances, at strategically important positions (e.g. position entry or exist), all in the name of challenging dot shooters. These were often mini poppers or hard partials. Under those circumstances, major PF does not award enough advantages that outweigh the inconveniences associated with awkward reload position or risks of shooting empty. The potential of shooting empty naturally reduces the aggression on targets like steel array. Also, people often underestimate the loss associated with reloads, even for those "on the move" ones. Many so called reload on the move are within short distances that can be covered within 1 or 2 seconds. The shift in attention can easily lead to mispositioning or loss of opportunities to have gun up early and eyes on the spot, leading to longer time or worse hit. 

 

On hard partials you don't have to aim as much with major. Safely hit some C's and move on to the next position. 

[rg0634249]

I think what is going on here is that people who are tired of reloading and are too weak to shoot major are daydreaming about some possible rules change that would let them be competitive in A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want.

teatv download

hellodear.in
 

[shred]

Are we still having this discussion??

 

Major wins nearly always over round count.  Last time we had a head-to-head of the two, Open beat PCC on the same stages at a Nationals, and Limited beat CO.

 

Freaks like Nils skew things somewhat but the trend remains.  The only Major/Minor division where Minor is the default best option is revo.  Single Stack is probably closest to a wash but Major wins more often than Minor at the top levels.  IPSC's 9 rounds per position rule changes things a little, but still not quite parity.