M-29 Issue

[gargoil66]

Guys:

 

Bought a Model 29 with a 6 1/2 inch barrel about forty years ago.  Shot it some but not much.  Picked it up again recently and of course one cylinder is difficult to rotate into battery.  Must be the hand or the ratchet or both but five of them function flawlessly and one is sticky to move either single or double action.  When I say 'sticky' I mean you think the cylinder is jammed until you pull very hard to get the cylinder to rotate.  

 

I can do some simple work like honing and polishing parts but I won't even touch the geometry on the ratchet unless I am willing to buy another one.  Fat chance getting parts these days.  Not sure if an oversize hand is the solution either.  

 

Am sure many of you have experienced this so offer your advice if you will.

 

GG66

[ysrracer]

So sitting for forty years caused a mechanical failure?

 

(I'm not a gunsmith)

[AHI]

Maybe try a complete clean and lube.

[BoyGlock]

I have not experienced that but I know such revos’ lockworks are very precise and a bit fragile that exerting force a bit more than normal could damage such lockworks. I would heed the advice above to clean and lube first and dont use exessive force on anything. 

[gargoil66]

Guys:

 

GG is no dumbo.  Yes, I bought it about forty years ago but that doesn't mean it sat in my safe without being fired, cleaned, and lubed.

 

I experienced it before with my 327 that is only three years old.  Each pull of the trigger was progressively harder for all eight iterations.  The last one was so hard to pull that when I got the revolver I thought it was broken.  Some dry firing eased it up but it pissed me off so badly that I wrote Smith and Wesson a very polite but scathing message.  All someone in their custom shop had to do was dry fire it eight times and it never would have left their door.  Smith sent me the mailing label and I sent it off and had it back within about two weeks and it worked like it should have worked when they boxed it and sold it.

 

Smith and Wesson went through a period in the 70's, like our auto industry where their workmanship and QC was bad, period.  This M-27 was made right at the end of that period so it doesn't surprise me that it has an issue.  It isn't lube or maintenance.  

 

I will measure the cylinder gap for all six cylinders and check headspace though.  I have a K-17 that I bought the same year as the M-27 and I shot it some but not a lot.  I started shooting it again and as it heated up it got harder to pull the trigger.  In this case there was almost no cylinder gap and as the revolver heated up, it expanded, thus causing the forcing cone to slide against the cylinder as it rotated.  It too left Smith and Wesson some forty years ago without anyone checking the cylinder gap that I measured to be .002" I believe.  Gunsmith took ten minutes to get it straight and now it works quite well.

 

I can not see how the hand can be the problem because it works fine on five of the trigger pulls.  I can't see anything on the ratchet to indicate something out of spec.  So I will look at gap and check headspace.  

 

As for a revolver being a delicate instrument -- I don't think so.  I am a walking Underwriters Laboratory and if I use something more than a couple of times and it doesn't break, you bet it will last any mortal human decades.

 

GG66

 

 

 

 

[NoSteel]

..

Edited November 9, 2021 by NoSteel
Wrong post

[pskys2]

Start with a good cleaning and look at all of the studs when the side plate is off.  Could be a broken Hammer/Trigger Stud.

[PatJones]

Most likely a bent ejector rod or never crane. Checking the crane requires a gauge. Straightening either part involves banging on it with a lead babbitt. If you've never done it, bring it to a gunsmith you trust or send it to Smith.

 

The other parts don't grow metal. If it worked before, removing metal will likely just damage the part. Parts for many of the older revos are unavailable. Some of the modern parts can be used, but many of them have gone thru design changes.

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

Most likely a bent ejector rod or never crane. Checking the crane requires a gauge. Straightening either part involves banging on it with a lead babbitt. If you've never done it, bring it to a gunsmith you trust or send it to Smith.

 

The other parts don't grow metal. If it worked before, removing metal will likely just damage the part. Parts for many of the older revos are unavailable. Some of the modern parts can be used, but many of them have gone thru design changes.

Pat:

 

Yes, that is what I am finding out.  It does not do this when it is cold or with fired brass.  Only when it heats up and only with one cylinder.  This leads me to believe it was at least partly a cylinder gap issue like my K-17.  So this morning I measured with a feeler gauge and it is a very tight .005".  However, it is ever so slightly tighter on one cylinder.  So a combination of minimal spec cylinder gap and the cylinder slightly out of alignment  

 

It does close and open easily, ejects easily, and when I spin the cylinder I can't pick up any wobble.  I doubt I could see that small an amount but worth a try.  Cylinder lock up is as perfect as I have seen.  

 

Since it appears that the cylinder is out of alignment such a tiny amount, I wonder if the ejector rod and crane and cylinder are actually within specs but the gap is just below minimum?  Have no clue and it isn't a big deal unless I have to send it back to Smith and Wesson. 

 

Will call my gunsmith and see if he can measure the cylinder alignment and fix if needed.  Also open up the cylinder gap if he gets the same impression as I did.  At least I am pretty sure what the problem is now.

 

What I won't do is screw around with it.  Not my area of expertise.

 

A funny thing about this is that when I was at Ft Devens Mass I took it to S&W once for them to inspect and clean it.  At the time, Smith and Wesson offered a one day service to inspect, repair, and clean if you dropped it off in person.  I dropped it off and spent most of the day at the Springfield Armory museum.  Picked it up in the afternoon and the fellow says I need to shoot it a lot more before it will need anything done.  Honestly, I shot it but not a lot since then.  Not sure why because I really like the revolver and .44 Special loads.   

 

Thank you!

 

GG

 

 

[pyrrhic3gun]

Not all brass has the same thickness on the cartridge rim and can bind on a revo with minimum tolerances.  Check the gap from brass to the rear shield with a fired case that was difficult to rotate...or you could find one that offends and pull the bullet to measure safely.  I hope you have cleaned under the star.

[CtYankee]

I tend to shave with Occum's Razor (the simplest solution is usually the best). Pull the cylinder off (not that hard to do with a Smith), clean the crane tube and inside the cylinder, lubricate a LITTLE, reassemble and see if that fixes things. If the gun worked fine when you stopped using it, there shouldn't be bent or broken parts. I tend to agree with ysrracer; sitting for 40 yrs will not cause a mechanical failure, but grease can crystalize and oil get sticky. If this doesn't work, well it didn't hurt and it is better to try something simple youself before doing something complicated, or running off to a gunsmith.

[Nolan]

4 hours ago, CtYankee said:

I tend to shave with Occum's Razor (the simplest solution is usually the best). Pull the cylinder off (not that hard to do with a Smith), clean the crane tube and inside the cylinder, lubricate a LITTLE, reassemble and see if that fixes things. If the gun worked fine when you stopped using it, there shouldn't be bent or broken parts. I tend to agree with ysrracer; sitting for 40 yrs will not cause a mechanical failure, but grease can crystalize and oil get sticky. If this doesn't work, well it didn't hurt and it is better to try something simple youself before doing something complicated, or running off to a gunsmith.

 

Or worse, running off to some gun plumber, who thinks he is a gunsmith and buggers it up big time.

 

Nolan

[gargoil66]

12 hours ago, Nolan said:

 

Or worse, running off to some gun plumber, who thinks he is a gunsmith and buggers it up big time.

 

Nolan

Yo Nolan:

 

Roger -- I hear you.  If anyone here thinks I have blind trust for someone saying they are a gunsmith, they are wrong. 

 

I am fortunate that the two I do trust near me will tell me if they can do the job or not.  Revolver work is not their expertise and they don't want to do something on a revolver unless they are confident they can do it. 

 

This revolver did not sit for forty years.  I did shoot it but not that much.  And I run through all of my firearms once a year to inspect and clean or lube as necessary just to make sure ones I hadn't fired were still in good shape.  I can't recall the last time I shot it or if it gave me problems.  I don't particularly think it is a huge issue or one that can't be resolved.  Just wanted some feedback about what it could be and I am going with a slightly out of aligned ejection rod and or crane.  Before I contact a gunsmith though, I will remove the cylinder and take a closer look at the ejector rod.  Maybe I will find something and maybe not.  It isn't hard to do and I won't bugger something up by doing it either.  Right now I am more curious than anything else. 

 

GG

[Toolguy]

Sometimes the face of a cylinder will not be exactly square to the axis. This leads to the cylinder gap becoming wider and narrower as the cylinder rotates. If you are shooting lead bullets, the narrower part can become leaded, resulting in the cylinder rubbing on the back of the barrel in that spot. You can check to see if that is the case by putting the well cleaned cylinder in a lathe chuck with a dial indicator on the face of the cylinder. Turn the chuck by hand while watching the indicator. It should have the same reading on all positions. If not, you can take a skim cut to level it out.

 

The normal cylinder gap for shooting only jacketed bullets can be as low as .004. For lead or a mix of lead and jacketed, .006 is better. Any endshake should be removed before setting cylinder gap.

[ysrracer]

15 hours ago, Nolan said:

 

Or worse, running off to some gun plumber, who thinks he is a gunsmith and buggers it up big time.

 

Nolan

 

There's a tractor mechanic in Phoenix that used to be a highway patrol officer. He can ***k it up for you real good.

 

Ask me how I know.

 

.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by ysrracer

[PatJones]

3 hours ago, ysrracer said:

 

There's a tractor mechanic in Phoenix that used to be a highway patrol officer. He can ***k it up for you real good.

 

Ask me how I know.

That's how I got into the trade. I wanted to learn how to fix the stuff that a local bow mechanic in Glenwood CO jacked up.

[ysrracer]

3 hours ago, PatJones said:

That's how I got into the trade. I wanted to learn how to fix the stuff that a local bow mechanic in Glenwood CO jacked up.

 

I actually had to pay Will Ohara in Southern California to fix mine. He said, who worked on this, a tractor mechanic?

 

And it stuck

[gargoil66]

8 hours ago, Toolguy said:

Sometimes the face of a cylinder will not be exactly square to the axis. This leads to the cylinder gap becoming wider and narrower as the cylinder rotates. If you are shooting lead bullets, the narrower part can become leaded, resulting in the cylinder rubbing on the back of the barrel in that spot. You can check to see if that is the case by putting the well cleaned cylinder in a lathe chuck with a dial indicator on the face of the cylinder. Turn the chuck by hand while watching the indicator. It should have the same reading on all positions. If not, you can take a skim cut to level it out.

 

The normal cylinder gap for shooting only jacketed bullets can be as low as .004. For lead or a mix of lead and jacketed, .006 is better. Any endshake should be removed before setting cylinder gap.

TG:

 

Was thinking about that as well.  

 

I do not even pretend to be a machinist although I do understand how they measure things.  I have no capability of making the measurements needed to determine exactly what is going on.  Kind of frustrating sometimes.  

 

The face of the forcing cone had a lot of pretty nasty tool marks on it so I took them out with a hone.  Brought out the ammo and shot it yesterday.  Shot enough to get the cylinder and barrel pretty warm.  No problems at all.  Feeler gauge again and yes, one or two of the cylinders are still tighter than the others so there is a problem.  How bad is it?  Not sure.  Need to shoot for group and see what happens.  If it holds a decent group at fifty, I probably won't bother with it.    

[Toolguy]

I hope it all works out for you.

[ysrracer]

I still don't understand how a gun can sit unused for 40 years, and something mechanically change?

[gargoil66]

10 hours ago, ysrracer said:

I still don't understand how a gun can sit unused for 40 years, and something mechanically change?

YR:

 

Read my posts.  In every one of them I stated that I did shoot it over those years, just not a lot.

 

I can not remember if it worked fine or was sticky for a round or two.  Up until the last couple of years I rarely shot a revolver double action.  I can almost guarantee anyone here that the few times I did shoot this revolver over the years it was single action.  You don't notice a sticky cylinder as much single action.  So I probably thought it a bit harder but no big deal.   

 

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago when I decided to shoot it again.  Now I am shooting double action exclusively and after a cylinder or two it got real hard to turn.  So here I am and I have some solid ideas why so if I want to deal with it, I will.  

 

GG

 

 

 

 

[pskys2]

11 hours ago, ysrracer said:

I still don't understand how a gun can sit unused for 40 years, and something mechanically change?

Rust or being exposed to moisture, fire things like that are definitely damaging, and noticable, and thankfully rare.

 

Being kept inside a gun safe for 30 years?  If it was me, and I do have some like that?, it's probably I don't remember that the issue was the reason I quit shooting it?!

[PatJones]

15 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

The face of the forcing cone had a lot of pretty nasty tool marks on it so I took them out with a hone.  Brought out the ammo and shot it yesterday.  Shot enough to get the cylinder and barrel pretty warm.  No problems at all.  Feeler gauge again and yes, one or two of the cylinders are still tighter than the others so there is a problem...

Maybe cleaning up the back of the barrel was enough. One of my instructors in school always said "The more you F* with something the more likely you are to F* it up."

[Fishbreath]

That's certainly been my experience with my wheelgun.

[ysrracer]

13 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Rust or being exposed to moisture, fire things like that are definitely damaging, and noticable, and thankfully rare.

 

Being kept inside a gun safe for 30 years?  If it was me, and I do have some like that?, it's probably I don't remember that the issue was the reason I quit shooting it?!

 

30 years? I thought he said 40 years, that changes everything.