Hate that I had to DQ this shooter

[ltdmstr]

Some pretty strange comments.  Rules are rules, particularly when it comes to safety.  At the same time, if it's that close that you don't know for sure, then you don't call it.  Maybe give the guy a warning and keep a close watch next time.  But if you're sure, you call it.  Over the past month, I've seen two DQs.  Both were competent shooters who were pushing too hard.  One put a round in a wall while moving, and the other sent a round over the berm while shooting from a stationary position.  Both knew what they did and didn't blame anyone but themselves.  As it should be.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

The real problem is overzealous RO’s that call them on 178-179° when they aren’t 100% sure (as they should be) any time you’re going to make a call to end someone’s match. 

 

At a level 2+ you have the luxury of positioning 3 people to watch the shooting, the running to weak side 180 break should be called correctly.

 

When there is just 1 r.o. and the other person is scoring ahead things get dicey. New r.o's tend to get nervous when they see a person is going to reload while moving to their weak side and the r.o.'s are usually positioned on the strong side so that they sort of have to look through your back to see the gun. I used to cock my strong hand wrist toward my strong side to avoid the 180 break but dropped that habit when I got dq'd by an r.o. who imagined how I had my wrist oriented and called the dq through my back with his x-ray vision - I've seen about the same thing happen to others on two or three occasions - beware the new r.o. on a learning curve. 

 

When running a shooter I personally can't call a 181-190 break in real time with sufficient certainty to dq anybody. Past a certain point, say 200, they get easy to call even when everyone is moving and when the stage is not oriented square to the 180. 

 

The best r.o. advice I've received on 180 calls is "you will know it when it happens", in other words the stuff that is not ticky tack is easy to see.

 

The best shooter advice I've been given is "don't let the r.o. make a mistake" , in other words make it very obvious where the gun is pointed when doing something that makes new r.o.'s nervous. 

 

And yea, dqing people really sucks. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by IHAVEGAS

[Bagellord]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

At a level 2+ you have the luxury of positioning 3 people to watch the shooting, the running to weak side 180 break should be called correctly.

 

When there is just 1 r.o. and the other person is scoring ahead things get dicey. New r.o's tend to get nervous when they see a person is going to reload while moving to their weak side and the r.o.'s are usually positioned on the strong side so that they sort of have to look through your back to see the gun. I used to cock my strong hand wrist toward my strong side to avoid the 180 break but dropped that habit when I got dq'd by an r.o. who imagined how I had my wrist oriented and called the dq through my back with his x-ray vision - I've seen about the same thing happen to others on two or three occasions - beware the new r.o. on a learning curve. 

 

When running a shooter I personally can't call a 181-190 break in real time with sufficient certainty to dq anybody. Past a certain point, say 200, they get easy to call even when everyone is moving and when the stage is not oriented square to the 180. 

 

The best r.o. advice I've received on 180 calls is "you will know it when it happens", in other words the stuff that is not ticky tack is easy to see.

 

The best shooter advice I've been given is "don't let the r.o. make a mistake" , in other words make it very obvious where the gun is pointed when doing something that makes new r.o.'s nervous. 

 

And yea, dqing people really sucks. 

What I've heard said is "I am not in the business of measuring 179 vs 181" or something to that effect. My eyes aren't protractors, I can't call 180 unless I am damned sure. Is 181 a DQable offense? Absolutely, if I can be 100% certain. If I can't? Then I am not going to say anything. If it's a local match I might pull the shooter aside and let them know it looked close, so they can be aware.

[twodownzero]

The only 180 break I recall making at a match happened to be a major match about 11 years ago.  It wasn't close.  When I am standing 20 feet behind you and to your left and I see the right side of your barrel bushing, it isn't close. Nobody is calling anyone on a 180 at 91 degrees from downrange, although let's face it, nobody should be that close and stages should be constructed so as to discourage anyone from getting that close.  The one I called was not only 30 degrees past the 180, his gun was pointed uprange enough that if it fired, the berm wouldn't have caught it and we would have had a bullet flying across the range Area 5 style.  As much as it sucks to DQ or be DQed in that scenario, I'm glad our sport is strict on this, there's really no room to be pointing your gun uprange ever....and if you do and get to go home, hope you haven't actually endangered anyone and learn your lesson (or do us all a favor and don't come back).

[warpspeed]

 

 

Hopefully the shooter realized he has some work to do and does it. 

 

I've had a gun pointed at me when I was in the squad gallery and that was pretty crazy so OP I feel for you.

 

[AverageJoeShooting]

8 hours ago, Dirty_J said:

I’ll agree and disagree. 
 

180 breaks aren’t specifically bullsh**… especially on bays with targets way up range. 
 

If a dude is 30yds deep in a bay versus 5 yards deep in a bay with spectators within just a few degrees of the muzzle… that’s a huge difference in safety IMO. 

 

The real problem is overzealous RO’s that call them on 178-179° when they aren’t 100% sure (as they should be) any time you’re going to make a call to end someone’s match. 

i agree

[AverageJoeShooting]

6 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I certainly wouldn't squad with you knowing that's your attitude about muzzle control.

perfect

im sure im not missing anything

[d3ydx3]

He will either come back to more major matches or he won't. Hopefully, he takes it as a lesson in safety and becomes more muzzle aware. There's nothing you can do one way or the other except to enforce the rules, keep yourself safe, and keep others safe, which you did. I had a friend that we went to our first major match together a few hours away from our local match. We had hotel charges, match fees, etc. He got DQ'd on the first stage at LMR because he had a dummy round in the chamber from the previous night's dry firing. He swore up and down he needed to use dummy rounds during his dry fire in order to feel the resistance when reinserting the magazine. He ended up hanging around, though I offered to go ahead and drive back since it was my idea to go to the match in the first place. I still give him crap about the whole thing. He still enjoys shooting, but he hasn't been to a match since then. Some of it is personal priorities and moving further away, but it is what it is. 

 

On another note, I got DQ'd at my first IDPA match years ago for breaking the 180. I didn't come to another match for a year and then decided to give it a try again. Haven't been DQ'd since then (knock on wood) after giving up IDPA and moving onto USPSA for the last couple of years. I've also had some other close calls over the years that really taught me what to focus on from a safety perspective like having an AD during a reload in the middle of a practice session. Ended up packing my gear up immediately and driving back home that day to think about it. 

 

All you can do is enforce the rules, hope the shooters take the DQ to heart, and come back to the sport with their head on right. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by pealandco

[Lightj75]

8 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Not sure what you mean by any of that.

 

Knowledge (or lack thereof) of someone's gun handling ability is irrelevant.  We rule on what we see at a particular instance in time and nothing else.

 

All but one of the 180 DQs I've seen were of people who are competent gun handlers.  

You literally repeated exactly what I said 

[Hvansky]

Rules are rules man. It shows that you’re one of the good ROs that not only care about safety but also about the shooter. Hoot to see you not trying to add another notch to a DQ belt

[zzt]

My take is rules are rules, but you don't have to be a dick about it.  I would never NOT DQ a shooter if I was sure of a 180 infraction.  Same with any other safety infraction.  Then there are the grey areas.  For me that is a bent trigger finger while clearing a jam, etc.  The rule says completely outside the trigger guard.  Evidently it is hard to control the position of your bent trigger finger when you are concentrating on something else.  So I often give the benefit of the doubt.  If you douch the trigger, even for a instant- DQ.  If wholly inside-DQ.  If the fingernail goes in for a second and right back out, I don't call it.  Same if I'm not sure.  But I WILL mention it to the shooter and tell them what I expect to see.  Most are thankful for the advice.  One shooter did it a second time and I told him I would DQ him if he did it again.  For the rest of the match he went out of his way to demonstrate a straight finger completely outside the trigger guard.

[waktasz]

Send him packing and don't second guess it for one minute.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by waktasz

[ChuckS]

closed