Increasing Revolver Participation

[Jerry V]

Don't gripe about how the stages aren't six-shot friendly.

While checking out the stages and someone says "Not revolver friendly is it ?" I always respond " It's ALL revolver friendy, it just depends how you look at it" and sometimes I add (with a smile of course) "and I just might be able shoot it faster than you".....and sometimes I do

It's all about attitude, if you look like your having fun and don't let the challenges get you down, people will notice. The Revolver Division, will never be as big as the other divisions, that's just the reality of being the most challenging division, it doesn't appeal to most......that's ok, that's why we have 5 divisions to choose from. We just need to be ready to answer questions, encourage those who are considering giving it a try and JUST HAVE FUN

----Jerry

[Tom Mainus]

I just got an E-mail from our Section Coordinator and next year WI is going to have a point series. The winner of each division will get a slot to the following years nationals. Awards and banquet to follow.

Me and my brother and maybe one other guy are the only die-hard revolver shooters in WI. Will the lure of a nationals slot get more people to try revolver, don't know.

[Wideload]

One more thought... Get more shooters classified with Revo. At the next "Classifier Match", encourage people to bring out their Revos and get a classification. Even if they don't end up shooting it regularly or at bigger matches, this means one more USPSA classified revo shooter on the books.

... After all, it's part a game of numbers...

Edited November 10, 2005 by Wideload

[Waltermitty]

The way I got started was that my home club had a Revolver Only match at least once per year. Everyone was encouraged to drag out the wheelgun in the closet and come play. It was usually held in the off-season.

It is a rare club that won't let you volunteer to set up a match and run it. Plan to do it on "5th weekends" or some other schedule that gets you 2-3 matches per year.

All you need are 2-3 willing accomplices.....

[shred]

If you do 'revolver only' matches, think hard about making sub-divisions for anything that's not a 625 in 45 ACP.

The "one-design" nature of USPSA Revo as it is today, as-in "You need a 625 or you're an also-ran (except for a few wierdos with 610s)" will drive away potential shooters that have one of the many more popular revolvers instead. Sure you can shoot IPSC with a 38 Spl and speedloaders, but it would be like shooting Limited with a 9mm Hi-point.

By the time a potential newbie revo shooter is going to drop six or seven hundred dollars to get set up with a 625, they're coming up on single-stack territory, so it would be nice if there were a better place for them shooting what they've got in the nighstand. With a revo-only match you could do that.

[pskys2]

What if a match was to use the following addendums to the USPSA Rules?

6 shot Revolvers scored Major/Minor (if loaded there)

7+ shot Revolvers scored Minor (regardless of caliber) but allowed to compete

Think that might entice a few more shooters?

Discourage shooters based on gaming courses?

Kind of brings us back to the olden days before we started hot rodding the Super.

You know where you either had a 7 or 8 shot .45 vs. 9 or 13 shot 9mm.

I wouldn't mind competing against a "Minor" 8 shot Revo, regardless of course design. Since the 8 shots are .357/.38 Super it's not that far out of line.

If we try it and it seems equitable, maybe we could get USPSA to make a change.

Dave

[pskys2]

Not to "Dissss" Randy Lee's work, but since I have one (and it's GREAAAAAAAAAAAT!) I almost hate letting anyone try it for fear they will think they need that extra to get started. But to date I've had my best Classifier Scores with a 7# Clark M29. I do think it was me, not the gun though that made the difference.

WIth that in mind, would a DA Trigger Pull Limit be helpful, if so what?

My 625 RLee is 4# and hasn't skipped a beat.

My 29 Clark is 7# and also doesn't fail.

My 28 just has a spring kit and is a little over 8#, but I haven't played with it much.

I do notice a difference when practicing, but in the heat of competition I don't notice it much. But, like the Comps of old for a .45, it allows you a little extra fudge factor. You can get away with being a little sloppier, pushing a little closer to the edge without slicing off a hunk of pride.

Dave

[Carmoney]

What if a match was to use the following addendums to the USPSA Rules?

6 shot Revolvers scored Major/Minor (if loaded there)

7+ shot Revolvers scored Minor (regardless of caliber) but allowed to compete

Dave, I think this a great idea! It would be really fun to have this option--and it might expand our shooter base without the need for any extra divisions or awards. I see no downside whatsoever.

[10mmdave]

(except for a few wierdos with 610s)

Hey ! ! ! I resemble that remark

[MBaneACP]

I'm ramping up revolver coverage in SHOOTING GALLERY this season. We're committed to the IRCs, and I'm willing to talk about something on revolver shooters in the USPSA. I'm also putting together a tactical revolver class at GUNSITE to film (which I'll be inviting that Sweeney geek to!) and a feature on Randy Lee's gunsmithing work.

My other suggestion would be to require Lisa Farrell to shoot in a cheerleader's outfit!

Michael B (ducking for cover!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[Bruce]

If the goal is more participation in revo class from those already shooting uspsa, then working with the rules and major/minor stuff may help.

If the goal is to bring non-uspsa shooters in, and have them enjoy the revo class? Big order. The vast majority of gun owners have no cluewe exist, and many of those would have little interest in "competing" with guns. The desire not to "compete" often times stems from not wanting to feel / look like an idiot.

An example---when I was playing some in IDPA I tried to convince friends to come and shoot. The questions about rules started.... After watching eyes glaze over, I changed my approach...I just started telling whoever I was talking to "forget the rules, just come have fun...I will shoot with you." Before the match I explained to them the safety rules.

If you are trying to get new blood into the revolver game, it will take a lot of grassroots recruiting---and the first time or two will have to be an experience they want to enjoy again. And do everything you can to prevent them from feeling lost and stupid...or that they are holding up the REAL shooters.

[Flexmoney]

MB,

PM sent. (we will be inviting Revovler shooter to Ohio again next year. )

[AzShooter]

I went to a local steel match tonight and shot my revolver. I wanted to test out my new 625 instead of my 627 and had a blast. I offered my 627 to a few people so that they could shoot a second gun, although no one took me up on it. I'm going to bring it to every match.

What got to me was late in the night a young man showed up that had never shot a match before. He brought his revolver and some ammo but didn't have a holster. The match director was nice and explained what he would need to compete and asked him to come back.

A few other guys jumped right in and sayed " You can't shoot with a revolver. You need a 1911." I told the young man that I'd help him and he could shoot whatever he had and felt comfortable with. I suggested what speed loaders to get and the Match Director explained what holsters would be good.

Here's a perfect example of what a new shooter goes through when there aren't any revolver shooters around.

BTW I beat the guys that said you needed a 1911.

[Waltermitty]

I'm ramping up revolver coverage in SHOOTING GALLERY this season. We're committed to the IRCs, and I'm willing to talk about something on revolver shooters in the USPSA. I'm also putting together a tactical revolver class at GUNSITE to film (which I'll be inviting that Sweeney geek to!) and a feature on Randy Lee's gunsmithing work.

My other suggestion would be to require Lisa Farrell to shoot in a cheerleader's outfit!

Michael B (ducking for cover!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Hey, I'm good for some sponsorship money on that cheerleaders outfit. It works pretty well in tennis and golf, (a few names come to mind) why not ladies division USPSA?

[Patrick Sweeney]

Because I've seen Lisa shoot. There may well be times I'd ask her to don a cheerleaders outfit (or a catholic schoolgirls outfit) but it won't be to show her off on the range.

Not unless we're going to ask the guys to wear tight, white shorts, t-shirts and wristbands. (Oh god, I just flashed on our old buddy Rhino. I must now poke out my mind's eye!)

[AzShooter]

I think it's in bad taste to talk about a lady that way and those posts should be edited.

[R112mercer]

A few other guys jumped right in and sayed " You can't shoot with a revolver. You need a 1911." I told the young man that I'd help him and he could shoot whatever he had and felt comfortable with. I suggested what speed loaders to get and the Match Director explained what holsters would be good.

Here's a perfect example of what a new shooter goes through when there aren't any revolver shooters around.

BTW I beat the guys that said you needed a 1911.

And you're a perfect example of the typical revolver shooter. Willing to help others and willing to win other's entry fees through skill. It still amazes me that the same people at the bottom of the score sheet can't figure out that SKILL beats GEAR every time. No matter how often the lesson is actually demonstrated to them at a match, for money or prizes or bragging rights, they still cling to the "that was a fluke, it can't happen that way, that's not what my gun rag says should happen" mantra.

[revchuck]

Sure you can shoot IPSC with a 38 Spl and speedloaders, but it would be like shooting Limited with a 9mm Hi-point.

Not quite. You don't get style points when you shoot a Hi-Point.

[Waltermitty]

If you do 'revolver only' matches, think hard about making sub-divisions for anything that's not a 625 in 45 ACP.

The "one-design" nature of USPSA Revo as it is today, as-in "You need a 625 or you're an also-ran (except for a few wierdos with 610s)" will drive away potential shooters that have one of the many more popular revolvers instead. Sure you can shoot IPSC with a 38 Spl and speedloaders, but it would be like shooting Limited with a 9mm Hi-point.

By the time a potential newbie revo shooter is going to drop six or seven hundred dollars to get set up with a 625, they're coming up on single-stack territory, so it would be nice if there were a better place for them shooting what they've got in the nighstand. With a revo-only match you could do that.

I dunno, there's a guy around here that keeps cleaning my clock with minor power factor and JET speed loaders....

[pskys2]

Guys, the areas I would like to see hit on in this thread are:

1) Matches, ways to promote Revolver participation.

2) Rules, ways to increase member participation.

The Fun/Nice Guy stuff is almost a given for Revolver Shooters (though I've been known to get a bit testy at times) so I don't think we can improve on that much here. But, those 2 areas above have to be done at an authority level, and some here may be able to push it better than others.

I brought up earlier the allowing of 7+ shot Revolvers by allowing them only minor, how about vented barrels at Minor Only? Minor doesn't give much advantage to a comp.

I don't have either and so can't do any comparison work.

I don't think Optics will have a place in this division for some time, as it stands now.

What I'm thinking of is opening up Revolver and yet keeping it competitive. For instance Carmoney and I shot it out 2x with Revo this year, he beat me by around 7% each time. We both shot 45 S&W Revolvers. Would his % have been higher, lower, if he had shot an 8 shot .38 in Minor? Or would that give an advantage that would lead to an equipment race?

Matches, locally with no Classifiers we could convince our clubs to let us play with this. Bigger Non-Sanctioned Matches could do this also. USPSA won't, and shouldn't, entertain this idea if we don't have some statistical evidence to support it. But, then if it doesn't actually help participation then it's not needed, either.

There is Carmoney's Iowa Match, Hops Southern Match and maybe the Kansas Sunflower Classic (if it doesn't go Sectional) that could all be used as test beds, with a little help from some of us.

If anyone has any experience in this, or if your club tries it, get back with us here and let us know if it helps.

Dave

[pskys2]

CCPS in Topeka, KS. has a monthly club match on the 3rd Sunday of each month.

We shoot 3+ Courses (usually Field Courses) each match.

Is anyone interested in bringing out their 7 or 8 shot Revolvers, w or w/out comps, and competing as Minor in Revolver. I could probably sell it as being ok, as long as there's no classifiers shot. I guarantee it doesn't bother me (I have only Big Bore 6 shooters).

We are located about an hour west of KC, so I know the area has limited known competitors. Are there any out there who don't compete regularly? Bullseye, PPC, Bianchi, Pins?

Since they usually do a Special Classifier 2x/yr (March and August) there should be plenty of opportunity.

If anyone's interested let me know.

Dave

[MBaneACP]

AZshooter obviously doesn't know Lisa! If you call her a lady, BTW, be prepared to duck. Also, remember she shoots better than you (or most of us!).

mb

[Keith]

Maybe a "Point Series" type match in a local area? For instance here in Area 3 we could have 3 Sectionals, an Area Champs and a couple of "other" matches. All centered in Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas. Ideas Mike? Do we "HAVE" to go through USPSA, or do it in conjunction with USPSA?

Keith should weigh in on this topic. The Minnesota Section has had an active point series of its own, complete with online results and plaques and stuff. I get the impression from Keith that it contributed to more local shooting of the smaller divisions, including Revo. Definitely something to explore.

Sorry. I've been a little busy banging my head against the wall. I'm starting to rethink this whole "own your own business" thing lately.

The MN section has had a points race since I started shooting IPSC back in '97. (back when there was only limited and open division if I remember correctly) Probably longer. As far as I know up until last year there was only a certain local doctor that shot revolver religously. Everyonce in a while someone else would show up with a wheelgun at a special classifier or something. 2004 was the first year that there was enough people in revolver division to have a division that I know of. I think our bylaws say that there has to be at least 3 shooters in a division for it to be officially recognized. (awards, prizes) Last year we started out with at least 6 competitiors dedicated to the wheelgun race and one was from Wisconsin so he was automatically not elligible for awards or prizes. (stupid rule I think) At the end of the year there was only 3 Minnesotan's left shooting a revolver at the sectional for the points race. Plus the WI shooter and one Iowan. ( had a chance to see Skip shoot the WI IDPA state match a couple months earlier and he had me worried when I saw him show up for our sectional)

Pretty much the same thing this year. We had 5 local shooters start out the points race shooting a wheely but we only had 4 at the end of the year for the sectional. Plus the Carmoneys and someone else from out of state I didn't get a chance to meet. I think that people are all excited to start shooting a revolver and then realize how hard it is and go back to a bottomfeeder when they realize they may have a better chance at awards/prizes in another division.

As I mentioned before I cannot see a revolver division in MN next year. I could be wrong but the other regulars have made it known to me that they are shooting other divisions next year for the points race. Something about big sticks. I didn't ask questions. I will probably dip into the limited pool with a Glock to see if I can stir something up for the race but use the wheely for other matches to stay in tune for nationals and whatever else comes along.

Hey Tom,

Depending on when it is you can probably count me in for revolver at the WI sectional next year.

Edited to add that of all the Minnesotans that shot in the revolver race in 2004 and 2005 that I was the only one that had any interest in a nationals slot.

Edited November 12, 2005 by Keith

[Bubber]

Guys, the areas I would like to see hit on in this thread are:

1) Matches, ways to promote Revolver participation.

2) Rules, ways to increase member participation.

The Fun/Nice Guy stuff is almost a given for Revolver Shooters (though I've been known to get a bit testy at times) so I don't think we can improve on that much here. But, those 2 areas above have to be done at an authority level, and some here may be able to push it better than others.

I brought up earlier the allowing of 7+ shot Revolvers by allowing them only minor, how about vented barrels at Minor Only? Minor doesn't give much advantage to a comp.

I don't have either and so can't do any comparison work.

I don't think Optics will have a place in this division for some time, as it stands now.

What I'm thinking of is opening up Revolver and yet keeping it competitive. For instance Carmoney and I shot it out 2x with Revo this year, he beat me by around 7% each time. We both shot 45 S&W Revolvers. Would his % have been higher, lower, if he had shot an 8 shot .38 in Minor? Or would that give an advantage that would lead to an equipment race?

Matches, locally with no Classifiers we could convince our clubs to let us play with this. Bigger Non-Sanctioned Matches could do this also. USPSA won't, and shouldn't, entertain this idea if we don't have some statistical evidence to support it. But, then if it doesn't actually help participation then it's not needed, either.

There is Carmoney's Iowa Match, Hops Southern Match and maybe the Kansas Sunflower Classic (if it doesn't go Sectional) that could all be used as test beds, with a little help from some of us.

If anyone has any experience in this, or if your club tries it, get back with us here and let us know if it helps.

Dave

Dave, I don't find shoting minor as a big handicap. I shoot mostly A's (roughly 85 to 90% A's) and an occassional Mike and No Shoot, (but they count the same in minor or major) If allowed to shoot the extra 2 shots is going to be a big advantage when there are 8 shots from one position. A seven shot is not that much of an avantage over 6 unless it is 6 shots on steel. But I wish I could use my Dotted 8 shot in a revolver class. I guess it goes back to stage design. ICORE does a fair job of evening out the 8 and 6 shots by design. Later rdd

[Carmoney]

I don't know Bubber. The reload with an 8-shooter is going to be a little bit slower on average--even with Super or Short Colt--than you'd get with a good hogged-out 625. That factor, combined with the minor scoring penalty, would make the two platforms pretty even, I would bet.

Hmmmmm........ Maybe if we wind up doing the Iowa Revolver-Only Championship (IROC?) we can open up the 8-shot minor option and just see for ourselves......?