Increasing Revolver Participation

[pskys2]

After seeing the depth of feeling on another thread when it was rumored that USPSA might be thinking of eliminating the Revolver Division, I thought maybe we should try to channel that energy into something useful.

So, what do we do to increase participation?

What's worked in other Divisions?

What hasn't worked?

Dave

[cliffwalsh]

When I want to increase participation, I use Rohypnol......

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

When I want to increase participation, I use Rohypnol......

What about the other hand??

[Wakal]

From talking with the ICORE guys, the six round no optics thing needs to go.

So...delete the current six-round "Limited" revolver, and follow the system that Bruce Gary laid out yesterday:

Open: recognized sub-division for ported revolvers with or without optics

Limited: recognized sub-division for nonported, iron sighted revolvers

Production: recognized sub-division six shot iron sight revolvers

Doing that would allow folks like My Hero Bud Bond to come play with his super-neat dot-sight ported wheelgun (Open), me to haul out my eight-shot .38 (Limited), and JoeBagANewGun to bring the 4" 625 or speed-loader'ed 686 to play (Production).

That allows EVERYONE to play revolver, not just the few with six-shot non-ported iron-sight guns. After all, it just isn't right that people dump that kind of cash into a trick wheelgun and have no place to shoot it outside ICORE or Bianchi...we need to be INCLUSIVE, not exclusive...

Alex

[hopalong]

The biggest thing I have always kept hearing from "up top" was that revolver division does not have enough participation.

So I and others suggest informally to expand Revolver divison to: Open and Limited

in the past it was shot down as quick as it was mentioned.

So

Similar to Alex and Bruces Ideas.

Mine would be.

Open: any wheel gun do what you what to it.

Limited: any wheel gun up to and including 8 shooters.....modifications ect to follow the same rules as in the book now.( pretty much no ports, no optics)

6 shooters: As the book states now and what we are using in USPSA now.

If a person decided to go to IPSC world shoot or any other IPSC sanctioned match then they will know ahead of time that they will have to shoot the 6 shooter and make the higher power factor rule.

Keep up the good ideas, as you know most USPSA BOD members check this Fine forum for input and ideas.

HOP

[AlamoShooter]

Why does a revolver need all the barrel and shot count rules and limites to be recognised as a revolver?!.

At the steel shoot you have open revolver and Iron/ limited revolver. What does it / should it mater how many shots it holds, or how long the barrel is. The Auto div does not limit what kind of loading or mag well is used or even how many ports a barrel has. = simple is best and the most clear. Open Rev & Limited Rev. why add all the limitting rules. If a shooter wont to use a revolver at an IPSC shoot, the guy has already made a seperate class for them selfs , Why all the rules? and limits and Bull- * oony.

If I bring out my 16 year old 610 with a 6.25" barrel and iron sights IPSC says it is limited class gun becuse the barrel is not shorter.

Open REV. = comp and or optics. Limited Rev. no optics no comp end of story.

Jamie F

[Carmoney]

I think Dave's trying to get us talking about something other than rehashing all the would/could/should division stuff......

My first thought is to work harder to convince S&W (and perhaps Taurus and Ruger) to get behind our sport. S&W puts quite a bit of energy into sponsoring ICORE--which is great, except ICORE is a distinctly regional activity (i.e. regions where there's an active club!) S&W sponsors that big indoor IDPA match every winter. They even contribute prizes and send their reps to the Steel Challenge each year.

Who is campaigning S&W to have a meaningful presence in USPSA? Or the other manufacturers? I'm not talking about setting up a factory team with silly jumpsuits and all that circa-1990 stuff. Just a meaningful presence at our bigger matches. We're not even seeing Jerry out and about all that much in USPSA matches, or so it seems....

On the club level, I believe the single best way to promote revolver shooting in USPSA is to hold separate monthly matches designated as "racegun" and "non-racegun" (on separate weekends). On NRG day, Limited and Open guns stay at home in the safe, if you want to shoot, you bring your Production, Revolver, or Single Stack. The format should be like any other match, no need to make it 6-round neutral or anything like that. Guys will show up with revolvers that you never expected to see with one!! And the revolver shooters can play with their blasters on RG day, which is fun too.

[cliffwalsh]

If I bring out my 16 year old 610 with a 6.25" barrel and iron sights IPSC says it is limited class gun becuse the barrel is not shorter.

That is not true. There is no limit on length of barrel. The rule says "Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components), produced by an OFM and available to the general public (except prototypes) is permitted.

You cannot put on a 6.25 inch barrel if the gun never came out of the factory that way. If the gun was made that way, you can use it.

Doing that would allow folks like My Hero Bud Bond to come play with his super-neat dot-sight ported wheelgun (Open), me to haul out my eight-shot .38 (Limited), and JoeBagANewGun to bring the 4" 625 or speed-loader'ed 686 to play (Production).

You can do all those things right now. Why don't you????

Is it the desire for bling-bling and tzotchkes??

[Wakal]

Who says that I don't?

I also compete in SASS with a 5.5" 1873 Artillery and a 3.5" New Thunderer (and a 1894 Winchester, 1897 Win, and a Coach Gun); I have some experience with wheelguns. I've run IDPA type competitions with a Peacemaker. I'm classified in both IDPA and IPSC with my favorite 4" 625. And yes, I've been accused of not being quite...all there

Just because I don't think revolver should be a stand-along division doesn't mean that I don't like to shoot wheelguns.

And...as far as the bling-bling...remember that I'm also a champion of random draw prize tables

Alex

Edited November 9, 2005 by Wakal

[AzShooter]

More of us need to crossover into the other shooting disciplines.

I shoot ICORE, Steel and USPSA. Each month we have about 25 shooters at our local ICORE match. Many are shooting Open and say they would shoot USPSA if there was an Open Revolver Division.

The Steel match will have maybe two other revolver shooters. People want all that extra ammo because they have to shoot fast and miss so much. If they shot a revolver they may learn to hit 5 plates with 5 shots.

USPSA at least has given us a chance and we should appreciate that. Now we need to go a step further.

Our USPSA club use to have Best Of Day competitions at the end of each match with the best auto shooter competing against the best revolver. Many times the revolver shooter would win. It also promoted a number of shooters to shoot both guns just so they'd have something to do until the end of the match for the shoot offs.

Bring an extra gun and ammo to a match and offer your friends that gun to shoot after their autos. If they try it they may learn to like it.

[Wideload]

Get more shooters to try revo without forcing them to buy additional gear. Get them thinking they can do this competitively.

At a club level -- Organize some side matches at a club level for revos. Set it up so that you do not have to draw from a holster and maintain round count under 18 rounds per stage. Many shooters may have a revo or two in their safe but only 1 or 2 speed loaders and probably not a competition type holster. Get shooters to bring what they have out of their safes without having to purchase additional competition gear.

If a shooter doesn't have a revo but still wants to try it, lend them yours for this event.

Also provide instruction at the beginning of the event for how to unload/reload revos so that if they only know how to shoot bottom fedders competitively, they get a walkthru of the fundamentals, and maybe not "emabarass themselves" (in their own eyes).

Maybe throw in a random drawing for a revo accessory for this event.

At larger matches -- get vendors to sponsor a similar sidematch event.

Edited November 9, 2005 by Wideload

[dajarrel]

You can't make a mixture stronger by diluting it. If you take the various permutations of revolvers such as the 7-8 rounders or scoped or compensated and start placing them in different divisions, all you are doing is diluting the pool of revolver shooters. Establish a set of rules (which we have) and if you want to shoot it, do so. Don't mully-grub about not being able to shoot your star-wars revolver because it is comped, or has one hole too many in the cylinder.

That being said, IMHO, if the revolver division is going to grow, revolver shooters will have to push it, BUT.... Match directors can go a long way to help by recognizing those revolver shooters that do make the effort. If there are enough shooters to meet USPSA's recognition standards be sure to recognize the achievements of the shooters. Small plaques or medallions are cheap. At least mention that there was a turnout. Quite often it's the same with production and Lim10. We are all small ducks in the pond compared to Limited and Open, but revolver shooters are the ugly duckling.

FWIW

dj

[AustinMike]

I said it already in the other thread, but I'll say it here too. Revolver shooting has had some good media attention this year. Shooting USA did full shows on Jerry's world record shooting and IRC. When we see revolver coverage on TV or in print, we should write or call and thank them for the coverage and tell them we want to see more in the future. If people see revolvers brought up consistently in what they read and watch, they may become more interested in trying it out or shooting revolvers more often if they already do.

[shred]

I love shooting Revos (some of you will remember my woes shooting an 8-shot in Production), but you've gotta target your audience.. it's hard enough getting shooters to the range without telling them they'll be shooting with (I didn't say competing with, but you know how it goes.. ) 20-round .40's and 30-round Supers. It takes a special kind to want to push the 6-round rock uphill. Find those people and market to them.

[Patrick Sweeney]

If we want more revo shooters, we have to make it look like something shooters want to do. Make it fun!

At the club level, form a wheelgunners group. Be inclusive. Be seen having fun. Don't gripe about how the stages aren't six-shot friendly. If anyone asks about revolvers, talk about the fun side. Talk about the primo-accurate police surplus gun your girlfriend/wife is shooting, that cost you $150.

Let anyone who wants to try it, try your revolver. Even offer to let them shoot a match with your gun (a spare, or your match gun) on your squad.

Let them dry-fire your custom trigger job, and mention that the gun and trigger job costs less than the hi-cap mags that Open shooter over there is wearing.

We can't be curmudgeons and expect anyone to want to hang with us.

At the Area, Sectional and Nationals, encourage anyone who shoots a wheelgun in your club to go to bigger matches. Once there, make it a point to thank the ROs for the stage you just shot, and the MD for making the match so much fun for wheelgunners. If there was a great big problem or hassle for revo shooters at the match, don't gripe about how you got screwed. Suggest that the stage with the problem sure discouraged the new wheelgunner in your squad, but he had fun anyway. He just would have had more fun without the problem. Not complaining, just explaining.

Keep in mind the whole time the old adage about honey vs. vinegar as a lure.

[Carmoney]

Don't gripe about how the stages aren't six-shot friendly.

This is a biggie. In just the year and a half I've been back in the competitive shooting game, I've managed to come full circle on this. I used to whine about making it all six-round neutral. Now, as long as there are other revolver shooters to compete with, the longer and more "revolver-unfriendly" a stage is, the more I find myself enjoying shooting it!

Everybody needs to understand that we USPSA revolver guys shoot our own little match within the match. But it only works when there are several wheelmen going at it. When I'm the only one with a revolver, I find myself wishing I'd signed up to shoot a different gun.....

[cliffwalsh]

More of us need to crossover into the other shooting disciplines.

I shoot ICORE, Steel and USPSA. Each month we have about 25 shooters at our local ICORE match. Many are shooting Open and say they would shoot USPSA if there was an Open Revolver Division.

They can shoot the open revolvers in USPSA. They just have to shoot open division. If you want an open revolver division, start shooting matches and show the front office there is interest. There will never be an open revolver division until there are shooters doing it. You would make a lot more progress if you got those 25 shooters out at the sectional with open revos. The same can be said for the 8 shot guns in L-10.

Just Do It!!!!!!!!!

[10mmdave]

I have to agree with Shred on the 20-30 rnd deal, just shot a match over the weeknd with

5 stages plus a classifier (I was the only wheel gunner ) the classifier was a nice neutral

stage for all guns IMO but 4 of the other stages were load the big stick and start running.

One stage had 3 or 4 standing reloads/3-9 shot target arrays, no good even for SS class.

But it is hard to please everybody, design COF's for 6 shot guns and mandatory reloads &

the flat gun guys loose mags in the dirt and guns start jamming. Have tons of shots and

free fire zones ??

I know the revo's are only competing against each other (as well as eveyone else) it's hard

call to figure out how to get more revo guys interested.

I like the idea of an "open revo" class but target arrays will need to be reduced to doable

number of shots (6,12,18 ??)

I don't think I'm saying it correct above but I think I'm getting my point across, to make

stages compatable to 6 shooters the 27/32 rnd shooters get bored, make all run and gun

40+ rnd courses and the 6 shooters get hosed more often.

I dunno, I'll keep shooting and trying to get others to shoot it but unless the attitude

changes to make COF's enjoyable by all the classes even the new SS class will be having

this discussion in future! (my opinion, I could be wrong as this has not been a good year

for me at being correct !)

Oh !! And Mr. Sweeny is correct, remember the saying, you get more flies with honey than

you do with vinegar.

[Carmoney]

I've also found that the vast majority of ROs and other shooters on the squad seem to enjoy seeing the wheelguns do their thing. People enjoy teasing, that's part of the fun--I'm not sure I've ever heard a truly mean-spirited comment in my direction for showing up with a revolver. The "revolver squads" I've been on this past year tend to be animated, boisterous, and irreverent, and I think most people find that fun and entertaining--I know how much I enjoy it.

And I do think it rubs off--several times people have come up to me to say, "Man, if I knew you guys were going to be here, I woulda brought my 686...." So getting the word out ahead of time, like Hopalong has tried so hard to do, is a key factor for continued growth.

[10mmdave]

They can shoot the open revolvers in USPSA. They just have to shoot open division. If you want an open revolver division, start shooting matches and show the front office there is interest.

How will the front office even know there were open revos in open class ??

It's not part of the stats that get sent in is it ??

Don't gripe about how the stages aren't six-shot friendly.

This is a biggie. In just the year and a half I've been back in the competitive shooting game, I've managed to come full circle on this. I used to whine about making it all six-round neutral. Now, as long as there are other revolver shooters to compete with, the longer and more "revolver-unfriendly" a stage is, the more I find myself enjoying shooting it!

Everybody needs to understand that we USPSA revolver guys shoot our own little match within the match. But it only works when there are several wheelmen going at it. When I'm the only one with a revolver, I find myself wishing I'd signed up to shoot a different gun.....

That may be the ticket Mike, had there been more revo shooters it wouldn't have been so

sad watching my misses and fumbled reloads.

[Ron Ankeny]

It takes a special kind to want to push the 6-round rock uphill. Find those people and market to them.

+1

[pskys2]

I guess the first thing for us to do is "BE HAPPY", don't moan over the courses (I'm trying to stop it), show enthusiasm and as Patrick said don't be a curmodgeon.

Then as Hop and Mike have done get out the word on matches.

Last year I actually gave out a specific prize for the High Revo at our yearly Match. May have to do something like that again this year.

Most importantly get involved in the Organization and MD side, then kindly push Revo.

I liked, for the short term, Mikes idea of equal payout for "ALL" divisions. Encourage gamesmanship, what the heck if a local GM shoots revo and takes the prize maybe others will follow. Or once they try it, thinking they'll win something because they don't think there will be much competition, they'll get hooked. But, that's why I say it's short term as sooner or later that type of thing can leave a sour feeling to the average guy. And it will be a hard sell to any club having a big match.

Try setting up a match that starts with a Revo.

Let others use your Great Revo, while you use a stock one.

Maybe a "Point Series" type match in a local area? For instance here in Area 3 we could have 3 Sectionals, an Area Champs and a couple of "other" matches. All centered in Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas. Ideas Mike? Do we "HAVE" to go through USPSA, or do it in conjunction with USPSA?

Dave

[cliffwalsh]

There was a match 2 years ago up in Barry sponsored by S&W. They were going to have equal prizes for all divisions. The match was canceled due to lack of interest. The open an limited guys were not coming and I guess few wanted to shoot any other division.

Yes I was signed up.....

[BadShot]

Lots of good ideas. This is just an observation from our club. Last year we had race day one Sunday and production the other. Suddenly, we had 7-8 revolver shooters a our club. When we went back to shoot whatever you want, it dropped off to 2-3 revolvers shooters. My theory, it's too hard. You can pick up a Glock 34 and be shooting as c-class shooter in no time. If a guy has worked hard to be a b-class shooter in L10, it's gonna be tough road ahead to become a b-class revolver guy.

My point is that this is a niche market. It will grow some here and there, but I don't see it becoming anything huge any time soon. But, please don't repeat the same mistake that IDPA made and divide it into smaller groups just as it was on the upswing.

Skip

[Carmoney]

Maybe a "Point Series" type match in a local area? For instance here in Area 3 we could have 3 Sectionals, an Area Champs and a couple of "other" matches. All centered in Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri and Kansas. Ideas Mike? Do we "HAVE" to go through USPSA, or do it in conjunction with USPSA?

Keith should weigh in on this topic. The Minnesota Section has had an active point series of its own, complete with online results and plaques and stuff. I get the impression from Keith that it contributed to more local shooting of the smaller divisions, including Revo. Definitely something to explore.