Stock division round 2

[Jabberwalkie09]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

See look a proposed stock division and people are already wanting to allow modifications.  I wonder why production is where it is now....

I think the proposed stock division you’re looking for is IDPA’s SSP. Want to run with your mags full? USPSA already has a division for that with limited minor. The big issue I see from your opening post is your proposed division is being very exclusionary which, in theory, would further divide production making participation even lower. Personally, I don’t see anyone shooting production going over to go shoot what you’re proposing nor do I see people going out entering to buy a specific gun to compete in this theoretical division.

 

I understand that that USPSA is uniquely different from IPSC now, but there are a couple of areas that would make sense to align with IPSC. Allowing bull barrels in Single Stack and Production upping capacity to 15 rounds makes sense.

[Southpaw]

No thanks. No one wants to shoot a Glock with the factory plastic sights.

[B_RAD]

12 minutes ago, Jabberwalkie09 said:

I think the proposed stock division you’re looking for is IDPA’s SSP. Want to run with your mags full? USPSA already has a division for that with limited minor. The big issue I see from your opening post is your proposed division is being very exclusionary which, in theory, would further divide production making participation even lower. Personally, I don’t see anyone shooting production going over to go shoot what you’re proposing nor do I see people going out entering to buy a specific gun to compete in this theoretical division.

 

I understand that that USPSA is uniquely different from IPSC now, but there are a couple of areas that would make sense to align with IPSC. Allowing bull barrels in Single Stack and Production upping capacity to 15 rounds makes sense.

“Makes sense” is purely your opinion. 
 

As with what “makes sense” to everyone else.

 

People need to realize that they keep using that term incorrectly. 
 

 

[Jabberwalkie09]

33 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

“Makes sense” is purely your opinion. 
 

As with what “makes sense” to everyone else.

 

People need to realize that they keep using that term incorrectly. 
 

 

Looking at the guns available/on the market that are commonly used and popular in production, it does make sense. There isn’t much of a reason for a 10 round cap anymore when many are capable of 17 from the factory. Just a thought but with the rules as they stand now, bumping the allowable rounds in the mag to 15 in production would keep an entry level division where unless they have a magwell/optic or comp, they would not have to compete in a division with likely a minor power factor gun where they’re at a severe disadvantage.

 

As long as Revo and SS are divisions, I can’t see “no more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view” changing though. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Jabberwalkie09

[Eric802]

I think B_RAD’s point is that “makes sense” is subjective. What makes sense to me may be ridiculous to someone else. 

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

I think B_RAD’s point is that “makes sense” is subjective. What makes sense to me may be ridiculous to someone else. 

 

makes sense

[Eric802]

Bumping the mag limit to, say 15, or just instituting a mag length limit for Production would essentially create a “no optic/optic” division with Production and CO. Two minor-only divisions. Limited and Open would basically be the same thing for major scoring. That “makes sense” to me, but opinions will vary. 

[Jabberwalkie09]

10 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

Bumping the mag limit to, say 15, or just instituting a mag length limit for Production would essentially create a “no optic/optic” division with Production and CO. Two minor-only divisions. Limited and Open would basically be the same thing for major scoring. That “makes sense” to me, but opinions will vary. 

As long a Production has the approved gun list among other rules, that’s going to distinguish it from Limited. It would however basically negate the reason for people competing in Limited minor. With the last set of rule changes, we’re already close.

[B_RAD]

38 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

I think B_RAD’s point is that “makes sense” is subjective. What makes sense to me may be ridiculous to someone else. 

Yes. wasn’t trying to be rude. Just saying. 
 

 

35 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

makes sense

[terrydoc]

Hmmm sounds like you're talking about IPSC Production Division? You guy's did have the chance at that but chose another path.

[SGT_Schultz]

4 hours ago, RJH said:

See look a proposed stock division and people are already wanting to allow modifications.  I wonder why production is where it is now....

 

Because that's what most people want. 

[RJH]

12 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Because that's what most people want. 

 

I agree, but there were many on the other threads that seem to be wanting a "stock" division, and here I ask if people would shoot it if was a thing and they basically say, "I would shoot it if we could do X." So while a few, myself included would shoot a stock division, most seem to prefer production and CO as it is now but really just want to gripe. It seems many want "production" to mean, just as "production" as they want it and anything past their view of "production" is just limited minor and an affront to "production" division LOL

[RJH]

41 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

Hmmm sounds like you're talking about IPSC Production Division? You guy's did have the chance at that but chose another path.

 

I am not talking about anything IPSC

[SGT_Schultz]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I agree, but there were many on the other threads that seem to be wanting a "stock" division, and here I ask if people would shoot it if was a thing and they basically say, "I would shoot it if we could do X." So while a few, myself included would shoot a stock division, most seem to prefer production and CO as it is now but really just want to gripe. It seems many want "production" to mean, just as "production" as they want it and anything past their view of "production" is just limited minor and an affront to "production" division LOL

That's why I don't get wrapped around the axle any more about any of this equipment stuff.

[B_RAD]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I agree, but there were many on the other threads that seem to be wanting a "stock" division, and here I ask if people would shoot it if was a thing and they basically say, "I would shoot it if we could do X." So while a few, myself included would shoot a stock division, most seem to prefer production and CO as it is now but really just want to gripe. It seems many want "production" to mean, just as "production" as they want it and anything past their view of "production" is just limited minor and an affront to "production" division LOL

Yup!

 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by B_RAD

[ima45dv8]

2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

That's why I don't get wrapped around the axle any more about any of this equipment stuff.

Me, neither. 

People spend a lot of money searching for a hardware solution to a software problem. I tried that too and eventually learned that practice is cheaper and thankfully, more effective.

[MikeBurgess]

the problem I see with anything "stock" is that there are still differences that will be perceived as making a difference, so in place of buying and upgrading one or two expensive production guns you buy 8 stock guns and dry fire the crap out of them maybe set up a machine to pull the trigger for you, and then compete with the one that has the best trigger after 100K cycles. all stock but very likely "much better" than your competitors 1 gun they bought last week.  So you still have an equipment race just in a different way, and the gun still makes almost no difference in you scores.

 

the only way I see a "stock" class working would be to have a manufacturer sponsor the division. They would then supply the guns used in the division at L2+ matches, you show up and shoot the gun you are handed at registration. you can have your own for practice and level 1 matches but L2 and up you use what they give you. 

 

 

 

 

[echotango]

Pretty much like the IROC racing series back in the day. 

[MikeBurgess]

42 minutes ago, echotango said:

Pretty much like the IROC racing series back in the day. 

yes

[RJH]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

the problem I see with anything "stock" is that there are still differences that will be perceived as making a difference, so in place of buying and upgrading one or two expensive production guns you buy 8 stock guns and dry fire the crap out of them maybe set up a machine to pull the trigger for you, and then compete with the one that has the best trigger after 100K cycles. all stock but very likely "much better" than your competitors 1 gun they bought last week.  So you still have an equipment race just in a different way, and the gun still makes almost no difference in you scores.

 

the only way I see a "stock" class working would be to have a manufacturer sponsor the division. They would then supply the guns used in the division at L2+ matches, you show up and shoot the gun you are handed at registration. you can have your own for practice and level 1 matches but L2 and up you use what they give you. 

 

 

 

 

That is kind of how the old NRA high power matches were. I would be fine with that if a manufacturer could be persuaded. I am also fine with not worrying about it at all LOL

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

That is kind of how the old NRA high power matches were.

 

How old are we talking about?  I started shooting High Power in 1999 and been to nationals twice.

 

The only match where people were handed a straight up rack grade rifle was the CMP's M-16 EIC match at Camp Perry.  It was meant as an introductory Excellence In Competition match to get new shooters introduced to competition.

 

 

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

How old are we talking about?  I started shooting High Power in 1999 and been to nationals twice.

 

The only match where people were handed a straight up rack grade rifle was the CMP's M-16 EIC match at Camp Perry.  It was meant as an introductory Excellence In Competition match to get new shooters introduced to competition.

 

 

 

NRA high power was probably wrong.  I do believe it was CMP.   I am trying to remember where I saw it, but this would have been way back before 99. It is kinda vague now lol.   But the people shooting were using 1903s that were handed out at the match and it seems that the rules at the time were that as long as you shot Xs you got got to keep shooting, and one guy was basically able to shoot till he ran out of light.  And he did it with a rifle  he got handed that day and surplus ammo.  Maybe you know who I am talking about.  Damn I wish i could find it, it was a very interesting story.  I remember the picture of his scorecard with with Xs for all the required shots and then a line of Xs that kept going because he kept hitting them.

[SGT_Schultz]

44 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

NRA high power was probably wrong.  I do believe it was CMP.   I am trying to remember where I saw it, but this would have been way back before 99. It is kinda vague now lol.   But the people shooting were using 1903s that were handed out at the match and it seems that the rules at the time were that as long as you shot Xs you got got to keep shooting, and one guy was basically able to shoot till he ran out of light.  And he did it with a rifle  he got handed that day and surplus ammo.  Maybe you know who I am talking about.  Damn I wish i could find it, it was a very interesting story.  I remember the picture of his scorecard with with Xs for all the required shots and then a line of Xs that kept going because he kept hitting them.

That was before my time but it sounds pretty damned cool

[RJH]

23 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

That was before my time but it sounds pretty damned cool

I emailed cmp because it is going to drive me nuts trying to find it. If they get back to me i will update 

[ima45dv8]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

NRA high power was probably wrong.  I do believe it was CMP.   I am trying to remember where I saw it, but this would have been way back before 99. It is kinda vague now lol.   But the people shooting were using 1903s that were handed out at the match and it seems that the rules at the time were that as long as you shot Xs you got got to keep shooting, and one guy was basically able to shoot till he ran out of light.  And he did it with a rifle  he got handed that day and surplus ammo.  Maybe you know who I am talking about.  Damn I wish i could find it, it was a very interesting story.  I remember the picture of his scorecard with with Xs for all the required shots and then a line of Xs that kept going because he kept hitting them.

Are you now saying your idea of a truly 'stock gun' division (or special match) would be run with match-provided guns? 

You're drifting...