Stock division round 2

[RJH]

I started a thread a while back asking, "if there was a stock division would you shoot it?"Most people dodged the answer by saying that it wouldn't be enforceable but with the recent production and carry ops rule changes,  i thought it might be worth another look.

 

While thinking about it,  i figured out the only way to make it manageable rules wise would to be to only let in 1-4 very specific guns. Something like glock 17 gen5, sig 320 (whatever they call the 4 inch), cz75, and beretta 92fs. By keeping the amount of allowed guns very low and very specific,  rules enforcement would be do able for a true out of the box stock division. It wouldn't have to be those guns specifically,  those were just some popular ones that came to mind and were a combo of striker/dasa.

 

So now that the main hurdle of "unenforceable" is out of the way, is anyone interested in shooting box stock guns in uspsa?

[teros135]

No

[B_RAD]

I like the idea. 
 

I would shoot it. 

[Eric802]

No modifications allowed? Springs, sights, grips, mag releases, nothing? 

[RJH]

8 minutes ago, Eric802 said:

No modifications allowed? Springs, sights, grips, mag releases, nothing? 

Correct 

[ChuckS]

 

51 minutes ago, RJH said:

--- snip --

 

So now that the main hurdle of "unenforceable" is out of the way, is anyone interested in shooting box stock guns in uspsa?

 

Given your new constraints, I would (still) say no. But I may come to watch to see how you verify the origins of all the internal springs in a firearm  

[ima45dv8]

I'll shoot anything once; twice if I like it. But I suspect I wouldn't want to do something like this on a regular basis.

 

You posed the question but didn't say -- would you shoot it?

[RJH]

Just now, ChuckS said:

 

 

Given your new constraints, I would (still) say no. But I may come to watch to see how you verify the origins of all the internal springs in a firearm  

I'm willing to bet that four or so gun companies that got their guns approved would be more than willing to supply guns for protest comparison at area and Nationals type matches. I agree Springs would be hard, but I can definitely tell the difference in the stock springs of my guns versus aftermarkets with a caliper and by counting coils. Hell,the 4 companies involved might even send their own techs

[B_RAD]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

Correct 

I mean I agree with ethers. What you’re proposing isn’t 100% enforceable. 
 

it seems you’d have to allow trigger mods/replacement parts. I don’t see how you’d be able to get around that. 

[RJH]

1 minute ago, ima45dv8 said:

I'll shoot anything once; twice if I like it. But I suspect I wouldn't want to do something like this on a regular basis.

 

You posed the question but didn't say -- would you shoot it?

 

If there was enough competition,  sure. I wouldn't be an early adopter and i wouldn't shoot it if all it drew were revolver numbers lol. 

 

 

 

[RJH]

Just now, B_RAD said:

I mean I agree with ethers. What you’re proposing isn’t 100% enforceable. 
 

it seems you’d have to allow trigger mods/replacement parts. I don’t see how you’d be able to get around that. 

Trigger pull gauges and comparison guns would go a long way to alleviate any of that. Sure cheaters are going to cheat, but if I've got a stock gun sitting there to compare yours to it's going to be a lot harder for you to cheat. That's the other advantage of only having four guns or less, you can have an actual physical Stock Gun laying there to compare it to

[B_RAD]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

If there was enough competition,  sure. I wouldn't be an early adopter and i wouldn't shoot it if all it drew were revolver numbers lol. 

 

 

 

Well, that might be another problem. 
 

(Insert whatever cleaver catch phrase here)The cats out of the bag. The horse has left the barn. Etc..

 

I called it a year or two ago. CO is the most popular division now and will continue to get more popular.  People are allowed almost limitless mods. It’s 9mm (cheap/easy). Hi-cap. Dot!  
 

 

So, all the other divs will only see less competitors. 
 

This new “stock div” isn’t gonna draw much interest.  

Edited May 4, 2021 by B_RAD

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

Well, that might be another problem. 
 

(Insert whatever cleaver catch phrase here)

 

I called it a year or two ago. CO is the most popular division now and will continue to get more popular.  People are allowed almost limitless mods. It’s 9mm (cheap/easy). Hi-cap. Dot!  
 

 

So, all the other divs will only see less competitors. 
 

This new “stock div” isn’t gonna draw much interest.  

I really don't expect it would. But a lot of people seem to be liking the idea of a stock/production division in the other threads, so I was curious to see if anybody would actually the interested. So far not too many LOL

 

 

And the rules being hard to enforce in a stock/production division is one of the reasons production division is what it is now. Something like what I proposed is really the only way I know around having 10 million modifications other than just allowing 10 million modifications:-)

 

 

One Plus though, in my stock division you could fill your mags

Edited May 4, 2021 by RJH

[PatJones]

Or how about everyone just shoots singlestack. 10 minor is pretty even with 8 major, especially in the alphabet-level classifications.

 

The weight limit is low enough that you don't have to think about flashlights...

Edited May 4, 2021 by PatJones

[RJH]

13 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Or how about everyone just shoots singlestack. 10 minor is pretty even with 8 major, especially in the alphabet-level classifications.

 

The weight limit is low enough that you don't have to think about flashlights...

Works for me,  we just need to convince everyone else:-)

[twodownzero]

Yes, I would.  And I'd comply even if nobody else would.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

So now that the main hurdle of "unenforceable" is out of the way, is anyone interested in shooting box stock guns in uspsa?

 

Nyet

 

In fact, nyet to any iron sight division

Edited May 4, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

Or how about everyone just shoots singlestack. 10 minor is pretty even with 8 major, especially in the alphabet-level classifications.

 

Nobody is going to buy single stacks in mass anytime soon.  There already is the division you are suggesting and it gets almost zero participants until Nationals rolls around for the most part.  The reason CO is taking off is mostly due to the fact they increased the mag capacity to 140 mm, and possibly because optics are becoming more robust.  Besides who wants to reload all of the time except die hard revo and single stack shooters?  Not many based on the participation numbers.  

 

Plus are people going to buy a major and minor single stack, because depending on the match one favors the other?

 

As for the original OP its about enforceable as current production rules.  Please explain "So now that the main hurdle of "unenforceable" is out of the way".  The only way to enforce that is to take the gun down before the competition starts and have a way to mark the gun if it is tampered with.  Pretty sure no one wants any part of that nightmare, even the manufacturers themselves.  I would shoot it, if it were enforceable, but that has yet to be proven it can be done.

[Sdlrodeo]

An eas(ier) way to enforce the spring issue is by having a minimum trigger pull weight. 

who cares if recoil or firing pin springs are changed. Tune the gun to the bullet load fine, just don’t fiddle with trigger pull weight. 
 

I don’t know if I’d shoot it but maybe. 
 

 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

An eas(ier) way to enforce the spring issue is by having a minimum trigger pull weight. 

 

You don't say.

[MHicks]

If it was to be tried wouldn't it be much easier to just set a minimum trigger pull weight. Whatever trigger you want but it has to be at or above the minimum. One test to do, no teardown.

[Sdlrodeo]

2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

You don't say.

Yeah, I know. There are some that like the idea and some that don’t. I don’t really care either way. Just kinda tossing it out there for conversation fodder. 
 

pros and cons of minimum trigger pull weight?

 

we already have power factor measurement that can vary according to weather/equipment/operator. If you play too close to the razors edge minimum, you stand a chance of not having success. Same could be said for trigger pull weight. Thoughts?

[RJH]

See look a proposed stock division and people are already wanting to allow modifications.  I wonder why production is where it is now....

[Boomstick303]

Just now, Sdlrodeo said:

Yeah, I know. There are some that like the idea and some that don’t. I don’t really care either way. Just kinda tossing it out there for conversation fodder. 

 

I already bought it up in another post is the reason for my snarky post. It was not directed towards you.

 

I essentially outlined stock as the original posters quotes with a minimum trigger pull.  It was received about as well as expected.

 

 

This discussion seems to be bringing up the same talking points.

 

The beatings will continue until moral improves.

[Sdlrodeo]

11 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I already bought it up in another post is the reason for my snarky post. It was not directed towards you.

 

I essentially outlined stock as the original posters quotes with a minimum trigger pull.  It was received about as well as expected.

 

 

This discussion seems to be bringing up the same talking points.

 

The beatings will continue until moral improves.

Gotcha!