Tactical Reloads

[Andy9]

You can't drop a mag that has live rounds in IDPA like you can in USPSA. 

Options that I have seen for mag storage include; 

back into your mag pouch/holder 

into your concealment garment pocket 

pants pocket 

tucked between your pants and shirt

held in your support hand 

and cargo pants pocket

 

Under RELOADS:

3.4.7 Dropping a loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip does not incur a penalty as long as the shooter retrieves and properly stows the loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip prior to the firing of the last shot in the string of fire.

 

"properly stows" does not provide a direct reference to "8.6 Ammunition Carriers" 

 

What else could that mean? Obviously tucked between your shirt and pants isn't defined, also holding it in your hand isn't ether. 

Could you use a magnet???

 

What are your thoughts. The term  "properly stows" isn't found anywhere else in the Rulebook.

 

 

 

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

Stick it in a vest or pant pocket, or tuck it into your waistband. Those are the sum total of the competitive options available.

[GOF]

I wear 'old man jeans'. The weak side pocket is big. The mag goes in there easily. Then my hand is in a perfect position to grab the new mag as I come out of the pocket. YMMV

[Andy9]

I feel like if tucking a mag into your waistband is ok, then there is latitude for other things also...

 

[Jim Watson]

"Properly stowed" does not include holding in one hand while shooting with the other.

I've seen the others mentioned above used.  

I do not know the current position on breast pockets, used to not be allowed.

I doubt the dump pouches carried by upper crust tier operators would be approved.

[SGT_Schultz]

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

"Properly stowed" does not include holding in one hand while shooting with the other.

 

Is there a rule that supports that?

[Andy9]

16 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

 

 

 

Is there a rule that supports that?

 

That is the ambiguity that I am referencing.

When your are starting the stage, you would be always using the same start position,

 

per 8.6.2.i The same exact location for magazines, magazine pouches, and/or ammunition feeding devices in pockets must be used for every stage in a single match, unless otherwise specified in a stage description.

 

but for for a tach reload, "properly stows" does not provide a direct reference to "8.6 Ammunition Carriers"

[Jim Watson]

The current rule book does not define or discuss "properly stowed" that I can find.  Probably because the tac load is no longer a required move, the only place it comes up is for retrieving a dropped magazine.  

 

So if you have a method for a tac load that finishes with you holding the partial magazine and shooting with the other hand, give it a try and find out what the local SO thinks.  

[SGT_Schultz]

4 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

 give it a try and find out what the local SO thinks.  

 

Aaaaaannnnnnd now we get to the real reason why IDPA is dead in my local area

[scottinohio]

I believe that IDPA RULES breed range nazis!!!! A few years ago at a club in Findlay Ohio  I was dinged for not properly holding my gun in retention!!! No where in the rule book is retention even mentioned. There were many other instances. I no longer shoot IDPA!!!!!!!!!

[Diver123]

Properly stowed is anywhere on your person. Your hand, pocket, waistband, or your teeth if you dare etc. Tac reloads can not be required but my be performed by shooter if they so desire. You still must follow other reloading rules like not reloading while exposed to unengaged targets.

 

Scott, tribal rule in IDPA is still a problem. If a stage wants you to do something thats not the norm then it must be written in great detail. Also any non-shooting actions can not be penalized except by those in section 3 of the rule book. As for retention it is a shooting position much like strong hand weak hand or shooting prone. It should have spelled out something like elbow must be touching body. To assume what retention means is a poorly written stage briefing. 

[SGT_Schultz]

8 hours ago, Diver123 said:

If a stage wants you to do something thats not the norm then it must be written in great detail. Also any non-shooting actions can not be penalized except by those in section 3 of the rule book. As for retention it is a shooting position much like strong hand weak hand or shooting prone. It should have spelled out something like elbow must be touching body. To assume what retention means is a poorly written stage briefing. 

 

Can't do that.  Doing so would violate one of the founding principles of IDPA: to be not like USPSA.

[SGT_Schultz]

11 hours ago, scottinohio said:

A few years ago at a club in Findlay Ohio...........

 

Pretty sure I know exactly which one.

[DirkD]

On 1/14/2021 at 5:19 PM, Jim Watson said:

"Properly stowed" does not include holding in one hand while shooting with the other.

I've seen the others mentioned above used.  

I do not know the current position on breast pockets, used to not be allowed.

I doubt the dump pouches carried by upper crust tier operators would be approved.

you can hold a magazine in your hand and finish the stage, no PE unless you use the magazine,  then it would be a PE for using a staged magazines

 

[DirkD]

On 1/15/2021 at 12:23 PM, Jim Watson said:

The current rule book does not define or discuss "properly stowed" that I can find.  Probably because the tac load is no longer a required move, the only place it comes up is for retrieving a dropped magazine.  

 

So if you have a method for a tac load that finishes with you holding the partial magazine and shooting with the other hand, give it a try and find out what the local SO thinks.  

if your local SO gives a PE for this, they need to learn the rules

[Jim Watson]

I'll keep an eye out for the maneuver.

 

When I started IDPA in 1997 there were mandatory Tactical Reloads and you better not do a Reload With Retention.  I even learned a real Revolver Tac Load.  I think I needed to recover the saved rounds in a match once ever and maybe two or three times with an auto.  So my habits are well formed and I am unlikely to try a Gotcha Drill.

 

I agree that things like "properly stowed" and "retention position" should be formally described.  But it is not going to make me stop shooting IDPA.  I can even shoot USPSA and throw loaded magazines on the ground without getting mixed up on procedures.  

[mvmojo]

On 1/15/2021 at 9:58 PM, scottinohio said:

I believe that IDPA RULES breed range nazis!!!! A few years ago at a club in Findlay Ohio  I was dinged for not properly holding my gun in retention!!! No where in the rule book is retention even mentioned. There were many other instances. I no longer shoot IDPA!!!!!!!!!

Yep, I also got a procedural for not holding the gun close enough to my body when the stage specified shooting from retention.  Also got a procedural once for shooting with a mag in my hand after a reload.  That's the world of IDPA.

[RePete]

2 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

.  I can even shoot USPSA and throw loaded magazines on the ground without getting mixed up on procedures.  

What happened to me at a USPSA match in NY, with John Amidon as the RO, I stowed the mag on a change and after unload and show clear John said that other game came into play and I said yup!  Laughs all round.

[DirkD]

21 minutes ago, mvmojo said:

Also got a procedural once for shooting with a mag in my hand after a reload.  That's the world of IDPA.

you can shoot with a magazine in your hand, the SO didn't know the rules.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, DirkD said:

you can shoot with a magazine in your hand, the SO didn't know the rules.

 

In my local area (western OH) I've run into exactly one who knows the rules like he should.

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

When I started IDPA in 1997 there were mandatory Tactical Reloads and you better not do a Reload With Retention.

 

 

What is even the difference between the two?

[Andy9]

On 1/16/2021 at 12:52 AM, Diver123 said:

Properly stowed is anywhere on your person. Your hand, pocket, waistband, or your teeth if you dare etc. Tac reloads can not be required but my be performed by shooter if they so desire. You still must follow other reloading rules like not reloading while exposed to unengaged targets.

 

 

That is what I think also, because if "properly stowed" meant using an approved method for mag storage, there would have been a reference to 8.6 Ammunition Carriers. 

If "Properly stowed" can be interpreted as in your hand, or in your waistband, than it is open for gaming.

I also don't think that it could be in opposition to: 

1.1 IDPA’s Fundamental Principles
C. Provide a level playing field for all competitors that solely tests the skill and ability of each individual, not their
equipment.

Or,

1.2 Principles of Shooting IDPA
1.2.2 Participation Principles
A. Competitors will not attempt to circumvent or compromise any stage by the use of inappropriate devices,
equipment, or techniques.
B. Competitors will refrain from unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, and the use of illegal equipment

 

Because pants pockets are included in the definition of a "Ammunition Carriers" but there are no disqualified pants defined, even though "tactical  pants" with pockets everywhere, are an advantage to a regular par of jeans, I think that if a mag pouch has a magnet on it, and by all other means fits the definition, it's good and usable.
 

[rowdyb]

16 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

What is even the difference between the two?

In a tactical reload (TR) the magazine change is done with both the old and the new mag at the gun. A reload with retention (RWR) is where the mag change happens at the belt/pouches/pocket.  In the TR you take a new magazine from your belt and bring it up to the pistol. You eject the mag into the same hand and retain it using a lobster claw or pincer type grip. In effect having both mags in one hand at the same time. Then you insert the new mag into the pistol. When that is done the hand with the old mag in it finally comes down to stow the old mag somewhere.

 

In a RWR you eject the mag and bring it down to where you will store it. Then you access the new mag and load the gun. The switch in mags happening at the waist area versus the gun area.

[SGT_Schultz]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

In a tactical reload (TR) the magazine change is done with both the old and the new mag at the gun. A reload with retention (RWR) is where the mag change happens at the belt/pouches/pocket.  In the TR you take a new magazine from your belt and bring it up to the pistol. You eject the mag into the same hand and retain it using a lobster claw or pincer type grip. In effect having both mags in one hand at the same time. Then you insert the new mag into the pistol. When that is done the hand with the old mag in it finally comes down to stow the old mag somewhere.

 

In a RWR you eject the mag and bring it down to where you will store it. Then you access the new mag and load the gun. The switch in mags happening at the waist area versus the gun area.

Thank you for explaining that.  Still makes no sense as to why IDPA considered them different.

 

Yeah the sequence is slightly different but they both achieve the same end.

[Jim Watson]

The old book Tac Load is supposed to "leave the gun unloaded for a shorter time."  It is also more difficult to manipulate.  

 

The weird thing is, after all that preaching, the rule book recommendation for a revolver was to "eject the contents of the cylinder into the hand and drop the whole mess in a pocket."  Which left you up the proverbial creek if you should need the live rounds out of the mess.  Fortunately seldom seen unless the stage was written to force it.

 

They eventually abandoned the distinction.