Tactical Reloads

[rowdyb]

I remember back in 2012 making sure I could do both, but that skill set eventually no longer was required. Just like you used to always go to a match with a flashlight as you never knew when a stage would require one. Never see that anymore.

[apoc4lypse]

Okay so sorry to beat a dead horse but this was related to something I wanted clarification on but didn't want to start a new post.  Per the rule book:

 

Quote

 

3.4.6 Shooters may not perform a reload which results in a magazine (or loose rounds) being left behind after there was an unfired cartridge in the chamber, magazine, or cylinder at the time the reload was initiated. When done intentionally, this is commonly known as a “speed reload”, but doing this unintentionally is still illegal and will result in a Procedural Error penalty being issued.

 

3.4.7 Dropping a loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip does not incur a penalty as long as the shooter retrieves and properly stows the loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip prior to the firing of the last shot in the string of fire.

 

 

So per 3.4.6, does a speed reload result in a PE only if the mag is left behind on the ground?  So retaining it is okay and no PE is issued? 

 

In 3.4.7, does "dropping a loaded magazine" also cover the ejected, partially loaded magazine in a speed reload?  Or is this like if you fumble your reload and drop the fresh magazine?

[RePete]

If you drop the mag (empty) with a round in the chamber and leave it there - PE.  If you pick and retain it up before the last shot of the stage - no PE.

 

If you drop a partially loaded mag and leave it there - PE.  If you pick and retain it up before the last shot of the stage - no PE.

 

These are including a fumble.

 

If you drop a partially loaded mag because of a malfunction and leave it - no PE, because the mag is considered the problem.

 

[Jim Watson]

There is an outlaw match near by with clear IDPA antecedents that lets you speed load.  But you are limited in how much ammo you can carry and the stages run longer than IDPA, so don't throw away a magazine you will want later just to schedule a reload.

 

There are a lot of these around, catering to local opinion about what is "tactical" or interesting, or fun or whatever, but somehow better than IDPA or USPSA.  

[RePete]

I'm running Action Handgun matches the way IDPA used to be shot.  No fault lines - none in real life only hazards, and up to 22rds per stage.  Makes you really think on your shots.

[SGT_Schultz]

You people realize that some very well respected trainers do not teach the reload with retention or tactical reloads and advise strongly against them?

 

Tom Givens among them........

[RangerTrace]

15 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

You people realize that some very well respected trainers do not teach the reload with retention or tactical reloads and advise strongly against them?

 

Tom Givens among them........

I don't think it's something I'd ever do in "real life", but unless you want a 3 second penalty, you gotta do it in a match......:-)

[SGT_Schultz]

10 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

I don't think it's something I'd ever do in "real life", but unless you want a 3 second penalty, you gotta do it in a match......:-)

 

Actually I don't.  It can't be required, at least according to your latest rulebook.

 

But then again, almost no SO I've met seems to have ever read it.

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

You people realize that some very well respected trainers do not teach the reload with retention or tactical reloads and advise strongly against them?

 

Tom Givens among them........

Work is making me take his 3 day Instructor class in April.

[RangerTrace]

2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Actually I don't.  It can't be required, at least according to your latest rulebook.

 

But then again, almost no SO I've met seems to have ever read it.

Of course, you can round dump, which is normally the way I handle those stages.  There normally isn't enough distance to cover for me to get the retention reload done without slowing was down.

[SGT_Schultz]

10 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Of course, you can round dump, which is normally the way I handle those stages.  There normally isn't enough distance to cover for me to get the retention reload done without slowing way down.

 

That is true.  I can't remember the last time I shot an IDPA stage where it was faster to do one of those reloads compared to triple tapping one or two targets.

[Jim Watson]

20 hours ago, RePete said:

I'm running Action Handgun matches the way IDPA used to be shot.  No fault lines - none in real life only hazards, and up to 22rds per stage.  Makes you really think on your shots.

 

IDPA limits round count to 18 scored hits per string.  Most stages other than standards are one string.  Outlaw club I mentioned above goes to 24.  

How tough are you on cover calls?  We had an outlaw match that put in fault lines for easy administration long before HQ caught on.

 

17 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

You people realize that some very well respected trainers do not teach the reload with retention or tactical reloads and advise strongly against them?

 

Tom Givens among them........

 

Could that be the reason IDPA no longer requires them?  Their well respected trainers got out of style.

 

14 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Of course, you can round dump, which is normally the way I handle those stages.  There normally isn't enough distance to cover for me to get the retention reload done without slowing was down.

 

But at one time, "round dumping" for the purpose of scheduling a reload was a Procedural Error.  Extra shots to assure good hits were OK, but how was the SO to know?  Thankfully we got rid of that silliness.  

 

[dmshozer1]

17 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

You people realize that some very well respected trainers do not teach the reload with retention or tactical reloads and advise strongly against them?

 

Tom Givens among them........

I doubt in "real life" you will  need to do any type of reload.

Either they will be hurt, you will be hurt, both of you hurt or somebody dead.

Train to do one of course but if you survive, the  reload will probably come after the fight is over.

[RePete]

10 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

IDPA limits round count to 18 scored hits per string.  Most stages other than standards are one string.  Outlaw club I mentioned above goes to 24.  

How tough are you on cover calls?  We had an outlaw match that put in fault lines for easy administration long before HQ caught on.

 

I, generally, know my clients.   The experienced shooters get a tougher call than the new  ones.

 

But at one time, "round dumping" for the purpose of scheduling a reload was a Procedural Error, or FTDR.  Extra shots to assure good hits were OK, but how was the SO to know?  Thankfully we got rid of that silliness.

 

Those that caught were dumping into the berm.  At the '07 Nats the Trinidad/Tobago team got caught because they were dumping at the same position.  At the '08 Nats the team were split up into different squads.

 

10 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

 

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

46 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

But at one time, "round dumping" for the purpose of scheduling a reload was a Procedural Error.  Extra shots to assure good hits were OK, but how was the SO to know?  Thankfully we got rid of that silliness.  

 

Back when I shot IDPA, this rule was still in place at Arkansas State circa 2011.

 

Every competitor before me put three rounds into the same target half-hidden behind a car at 20yds, then reloaded at slidelock. I wound up changing my plan and putting that shot into a target at 5yds because I broke the first shot early while swinging onto it. It got 2 more A’s punched into it, resulting in three closely spaced holes.

 

I unloaded with an SO attempting to ding me for dumping... because I didn’t dump the extra round where we’re supposed to. Or something.

 

The MD overturned it, but that was a noteworthy example of the rule’s absurdity.

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by MemphisMechanic

[Racinready300ex]

52 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Back when I shot IDPA, this rule was still in place at Arkansas State circa 2011.

 

Every competitor before me put three rounds into the same target half-hidden behind a car at 20yds, then reloaded at slidelock. I wound up changing my plan and putting that shot into a target at 5yds because I broke the first shot early while swinging onto it. It got 2 more A’s punched into it, resulting in three closely spaced holes.

 

I unloaded with an SO attempting to ding me for dumping... because I didn’t dump the extra round where we’re supposed to. Or something.

 

The MD overturned it, but that was a noteworthy example of the rule’s absurdity.

 

 

I was shooting revo at a major once back then. The stage was two targets @ like 5 yards, then a big transition to a activator for a disappearing target that needed two. So I guess I was supposed to do a tac-load. But I just did 3 on each of the first two as fast as I could pull the trigger. The SO gave me a break and only gave me a PE instead of a FTDR. lol.....good ol IDPA. 

[Jim Watson]

That was then.  The frequent rule changes sometimes work to our advantage.

 

[GOF]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I was shooting revo at a major once back then. The stage was two targets @ like 5 yards, then a big transition to a activator for a disappearing target that needed two. So I guess I was supposed to do a tac-load. But I just did 3 on each of the first two as fast as I could pull the trigger. The SO gave me a break and only gave me a PE instead of a FTDR. lol.....good ol IDPA. 

You shouldn't have got that PE. Only you can call your hits. That was a total SO Opinion PE. Today you wouldn't get that PE. 

[mvmojo]

You were being very kind to the SO.  He didn't give you a break, he screwed you out of 3 seconds.  You were shooting at a target, not just dumping rounds into the berm to avoid a reload.  As GOF said, only you can call your shots!

[Racinready300ex]

16 hours ago, GOF said:

You shouldn't have got that PE. Only you can call your hits. That was a total SO Opinion PE. Today you wouldn't get that PE. 

 

It was kind of obvious what I had done so when he asked me I didn't lie. I thought the stage was a little dumb from a revo perspective. And everyone knew back then that we were all round dum...I mean strategically making up shots as needed on the fly. lol. 

 

Back then I was the only Revo MA shooting IDPA around here, had I got the FTDR I still would of won it just would of been close. I'm glad they got rid of that impossible to enforce rule.

[DirkD]

On 1/20/2021 at 11:21 AM, MemphisMechanic said:

Back when I shot IDPA, this rule was still in place at Arkansas State circa 2011.

 

Every competitor before me put three rounds into the same target half-hidden behind a car at 20yds, then reloaded at slidelock. I wound up changing my plan and putting that shot into a target at 5yds because I broke the first shot early while swinging onto it. It got 2 more A’s punched into it, resulting in three closely spaced holes.

 

I unloaded with an SO attempting to ding me for dumping... because I didn’t dump the extra round where we’re supposed to. Or something.

 

The MD overturned it, but that was a noteworthy example of the rule’s absurdity.

 

no that is an SO being a dick

[MemphisMechanic]

On 1/21/2021 at 7:22 AM, Racinready300ex said:

everyone knew back then that we were all round dum...I mean strategically making up shots as needed on the fly. lol. 

You weren’t round dumping.

 

You were ensuring tactical dominance.

[RePete]

12 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

You weren’t round dumping.

 

You were ensuring tactical dominance.

 

Too funny!  I must remember that one.

 

That's one to use as a reason in IDPA!