2011 and Carry optics

[Racinready300ex]

19 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

Those bemoaning the loss of popularity of iron sight divisions need to understand (or remember) that as firearm technologies change and are adopted by shooting sports, some types of firearms will simply just wither away due to lack of interest.

 

I saw this happen twice in NRA/CMP service rifle. 

 

The Army Marksmanship Unit saw the potential of the M16 as a competitive "production" service rifle over the National Match course of fire and drove the CMP and NRA to accept it in the mid 90s.  After a few seasons of development they got it to where it became the ideal firearm for that competition and started pounding the USMC rifle team (still using National Match m14s) like a rented mule.  Civilian competitors quickly caught on and by the late 90s the M14 was effectively dead as a competitive rifle despite the whining of many old timers and "traditionalists"

 

The same thing happened in the early 2000s with the adoption of low powered optical sights in NRA/CMP service rifle.  Again driven by the military teams as the Army and Marines were driving optical sights as standard on infantry rifles and saw the sport of Service Rifle in danger of slipping into irrelevancy if it didn't keep pace.  Within five years of the change you did not see a single rifle left with iron sights even though (unlike USPSA CO) they are still permitted.

 

While NRA/CMP Service Rifle's popularity is a shadow of what it once was, the decline is due to reasons completely unrelated to the firearms used.  The point to understand is that equipment changes are inevitable as technology changes and matures.

 

 

Isn't that kind of the point to divisions with different restrictions on equipment?

[Boomstick303]

20 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

The point to understand is that equipment changes are inevitable as technology changes and matures.

 

I have made this point numerous times in regards to magazine capacity and optics, and everyone blows it off that it is not why CO is so popular.  People can keep making up whatever reason they think Iron divisions are dying, but the are instore for a dose of reality as time goes on.

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I have made this point numerous times in regards to magazine capacity and optics, and everyone blows it off that it is not why CO is so popular.  People can keep making up whatever reason they think Iron divisions are dying, but the are instore for a dose of reality as time goes on.

 

I think mag capacity is more of it than the optic. There are still a lot of guys who are reluctant to try a dot or end up slower when they do. But no body ends up slower with more bullets in the gun. 

 

Don't get me wrong, after shooting dot basically exclusively for the last couple years I don't want to shoot iron ever again. Dots are better. 

[Boomstick303]

I have always contended the learning curve becoming a better shooter with a dot will always be quicker than getting better with Irons.  I think one of the main reasons we see such a boom in CO is that most of the new shooters we see at our local clubs nearly all running dots.  It is just easier.  It is the future as well.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

23 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Isn't that kind of the point to divisions with different restrictions on equipment?

 

You can make all the restricted divisions that you want.  You can't make people want to participate in them.

 

The majority has shown time and again that they want to move on with progress.  There will always be a few die hards left behind which will dwindle over time to nothing.  That's the point that some seem to not want to grasp or accept.

[CC3D]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think mag capacity is more of it than the optic. There are still a lot of guys who are reluctant to try a dot or end up slower when they do. But no body ends up slower with more bullets in the gun. 

 

Don't get me wrong, after shooting dot basically exclusively for the last couple years I don't want to shoot iron ever again. Dots are better. 

This 100%. People dont just shoot CO because of the dot. People also shoot CO because it's the only high cap division where 9mm minor is a viable option if you want to be competitive. 

[konkapot]

I don't like the idea of of doing anything to keep a division alive. Everyone is entitled to their preferences, and if, some day, nobody is shooting Production (or SS, or L10, or revolver) so be it. 

 

If there's no heat in the division that YOU choose to shoot, then use a comparable shooter in a different division. If you shot 72% against a CO guy last month, and 82% against him this month, then you are probably improving. 

 

Your choice of divisions doesn't justify rule changes. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

19 minutes ago, konkapot said:

I don't like the idea of of doing anything to keep a division alive. Everyone is entitled to their preferences, and if, some day, nobody is shooting Production (or SS, or L10, or revolver) so be it. 

 

If there's no heat in the division that YOU choose to shoot, then use a comparable shooter in a different division. If you shot 72% against a CO guy last month, and 82% against him this month, then you are probably improving. 

 

Your choice of divisions doesn't justify rule changes. 

 And to bring this full circle to the OP, someone's choice of pistol doesn't justify rule changes either.

 

So no 2011s/magwells/compensators in CO.

Edited June 21, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[zombywoof]

10 hours ago, CC3D said:

This 100%. People dont just shoot CO because of the dot. People also shoot CO because it's the only high cap division where 9mm minor is a viable option if you want to be competitive. 

Then how is CO the most popular division in a capacity restricted state?

 

It's the dot.

[Racinready300ex]

 

15 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

You can make all the restricted divisions that you want.  You can't make people want to participate in them.

 

The majority has shown time and again that they want to move on with progress.  There will always be a few die hards left behind which will dwindle over time to nothing.  That's the point that some seem to not want to grasp or accept.

 

Wouldn't just having Open, or maybe Open major and Open minor be better then? That way we can really go with what every the new innovations are that progress our shooting. 

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

Then how is CO the most popular division in a capacity restricted state?

 

It's the dot.

 

Maybe, there are lots of reasons people pick divisions. Do many of the people in the area you're talking about travel to unrestricted states to compete? Do the top guys at the club shoot CO? Do they travel. There is a little bit of follow the leader in this game, and people tend to not like being different. CO is the hot thing right now, and that alone brings people to it. 

 

Or it could all be just the optic.

[Sinister4]

12 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

Wouldn't just having Open, or maybe Open major and Open minor be better then? That way we can really go with what every the new innovations are that progress our shooting. 

 

yup why restrict the new tech of compensators, magwells and 2011`s  ???    If you allow one "new tech item" the exact same argument can be applied to every new tech item that comes along, and that may or may not be a bad thing.

[RJH]

Make an "experimental" division. Rules are: handgun,  slide Rider dot allowed but not required, minor only, the end. Division must be phased out in 6 years

Edited June 21, 2022 by RJH

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

Then how is CO the most popular division in a capacity restricted state?

 

I could be wrong but I think there is like 2-4 states where competitors actually obey any mag restriction for the local matches they shoot.  46 other states most likely use any mag they choose to use. That's a lot of shooters choosing mag capacity and red dots.  CO did not explode until after the mag rule was changed to 141 mm.  The data is pretty clear about that.  In my eyes it is the combo of mag capacity and dots.   

 

An argument could also be made that gun manufacturers are making more CO ready pistols' out of the box.  This started about the same time as the mag capacity rule change, which made shooting CO became a lot more easier.  More companies started offering a lot more options for slide mounted optics instead of like 2-3 options when CO started to be a thing.  

 

Once again as technology progresses relics die.  Iron sights will be a thing for Fudds 5-10 years from now.   Its called evolution.  Fight it all you want, production will die a slow death.  But it will die.  

[BritinUSA]

3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

CO did not explode until after the mag rule was changed to 141 mm.  The data is pretty clear about that

Not provable at this point.There is no control group. The division may have taken off with 10 or 15 rounds. It’s just speculation.

 

Now if IPSC Production Optics takes off in a big way (top four divisions) then it will disprove your theory as the mag capacity is set at 15.
 

If Production Optics does not become one of the top four divisions in IPSC then it would indicate that your theory may be correct.

[BritinUSA]

Note that Production Optics is still a provisional division in IPSC, due to be ratified at the next GA at the 2022 World Shoot

[Boomstick303]

23 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Now if IPSC Production Optics takes off in a big way (top four divisions) then it will disprove your theory as the mag capacity is set at 15.

 

Not provable because there is no 10 round control group for IPSC. 

 

See how that works.  

Edited June 21, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

23 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Not provable at this point.There is no control group. The division may have taken off with 10 or 15 rounds. It’s just speculation.

 

Now if IPSC Production Optics takes off in a big way (top four divisions) then it will disprove your theory as the mag capacity is set at 15.
 

If Production Optics does not become one of the top four divisions in IPSC then it would indicate that your theory may be correct.

 

My understanding is in much of the world it's much harder to get custom guns and that's part of why Production is so popular in IPSC. If that is accurate CO could gain a lot of popularity just because it's still a production guns but a little different. It wont really prove anything one way or the other IMO. 

 

Now if CO takes over and production dies in IPSC like it is here, clearly the dot is winning the race. 

[IL-SIG]

A little bit of a tangent and just as a friendly reminder - the mag size limit is 140mm not 141mm. The size of the mag gauge being 141.25mm allows for some manufacturing variances over the 140mm. However, having mags too close to the limit may cause a competitor’s mag not fitting the mag gauge and getting a bump to open.  Be careful and check your mags with an authorized mag gauge in advance. 

[BritinUSA]

Custom guns are available in most countries.
 

When I was living in Europe, both CZ and Tanfoglio were producing excellent factory Open/Standard guns. Guns built around the so-called 2011 frame (they were available long before 2011) were much more expensive due to import duties from USA, which priced them out of reach for many competitors.

 

Production division grew rapidly in Europe mostly for two reasons. The division was significantly cheaper and ammunition was easily available for those that did not (or could not) reload.
 

At the start there was no magazine capacity, it only had to fit in the box with a magazine included. Later it was reduced to 15 rounds which did not appear to have any impact on its popularity.

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, IL-SIG said:

A little bit of a tangent and just as a friendly reminder - the mag size limit is 140mm not 141mm. 

 

This is not what the carryops appendix says, it's specifically list 141.25 mm as max. Is there a rule somewhere I'm not seeing that list 140 as the actual Max mag length? 140 is not mentioned at all in the carryops appendix, at least not that I saw. I know 140 used to be the max mag length and somewhere along the lines it got changed to 141.25, but I'm not positive that's the case anymore. Like I say if you got a rule that says otherwise I'd sure be glad to see it, I definitely could have missed it

Edited June 21, 2022 by RJH

[waktasz]

 

45 minutes ago, IL-SIG said:

A little bit of a tangent and just as a friendly reminder - the mag size limit is 140mm not 141mm. The size of the mag gauge being 141.25mm allows for some manufacturing variances over the 140mm. However, having mags too close to the limit may cause a competitor’s mag not fitting the mag gauge and getting a bump to open.  Be careful and check your mags with an authorized mag gauge in advance. 

 

The gauge is 141.25mm, which is the limit. The wording used to say 140mm +1.25mm tolerance but that is long gone in the rulebook.

IPSC is 140mm though

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

Custom guns are available in most countries.
 

When I was living in Europe, both CZ and Tanfoglio were producing excellent factory Open/Standard guns. Guns built around the so-called 2011 frame (they were available long before 2011) were much more expensive due to import duties from USA, which priced them out of reach for many competitors.

 

Production division grew rapidly in Europe mostly for two reasons. The division was significantly cheaper and ammunition was easily available for those that did not (or could not) reload.
 

At the start there was no magazine capacity, it only had to fit in the box with a magazine included. Later it was reduced to 15 rounds which did not appear to have any impact on its popularity.

 

I mean they weren't available I just said harder to get. Harder generally means more $$ and that goes hand in hand with your  "Significantly cheaper" point. Just about anything can be done if you're willing to spend the money. 

 

If the reason for the popularity was price, it's completely reasonable that changes to capacity wouldn't effect turn out. In fact, going to 15 probably made the division even less expensive and opened up more viable guns, which would strengthen the low cost appeal. 

 

Since CO is just prod with a dot, I'd guess it will be popular unless they have issues getting dots in the rest of the world. With the same capacity, if production dies in IPSC then the dot must be the reason. Based on IDPA's results where capacity hasn't been a issue the dot is clearly more popular. I do think their scoring system helps push people that way.

[IL-SIG]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

 

 

The gauge is 141.25mm, which is the limit. The wording used to say 140mm +1.25mm tolerance but that is long gone in the rulebook.

IPSC is 140mm though

You’re right - I stand corrected. 
 

Making sure your mags fit the gauge is still important to do before arriving at a match. 

[Gcarr]

So … they created a class … called CO. People liked it… they tweaked the rules… more people liked it… they tweaked it some more … even more people liked it. 
 

some of the people that were drawn to it and changed what they had been shooting to shoot it… where’s the problem? 

oh … wait … some people are mad that to many people liked it? 
 

I say they need to tweak the classes that people left… maybe some will come back