2011 and Carry optics

[Johnny_Chimpo]

5 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

This horse can get beat forever but its not going to increase participation in Production, Revo and Single Stack.  What does it matter if CO is limited to 15 rounds or based on 140 mm mags?  Optics on pistols is becoming main stream, and is here to stay.  Just about nobody wants to shoot partially filled mags.  Magazine capacity seems to be increasing not decreasing for all manufacturers as far as compact and larger guns go.  I do not understand how using 140 mm mags makes a division, a division that does not have a soul, or a division that is not "good".

 

I find it hilarious that anyone thinks the increased mag capacity and red dots are killing Production, Revo, and Single Stack.  As technology progresses relics of the past die.  Advances of technology and the adoption of one particular caliber over all other calibers have a greater affect on division participation more than a mag capacity of just one division.  If you killed CO today is that going to bring back attendance to those divisions?  I highly doubt it.  No one is rushing out to buy Revos and Single Stack guns to replace their CO rigs.  Production might see a slight bump in numbers, but that division is on its way out as well.  

 

As for switching Production to 15 rounds, that is long overdue.  I highly doubt it will help participation in Production, but how about we allow people to fill up the mags for the guns they buy instead of restricting them.  In our area, new people showing up to the match are not shooting production.  Just dinosaurs who have been shooting it forever are shooting it.  

 

100% agree

[deerslayer]

10 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

This is all over the place.

 

Why is balance between participation in divisions necessary?

 

What makes you think people who like CO for what it is now will shrug their shoulders and move on to some other unappealing division when what they like about CO is ruined?  I think it's more likely they'll say f*#k it I'll go do something else fun with my time and money.

 

I can tell you for a fact that no matter what you do to Production, I'm not going back to it.  Nor am I moving to any iron sighted division nor to optics one where guns cost more than some of my rifles.  And I have some damned nice rifles.

 

You wonder if CO's success translates into success for the organization.  Well, define your idea of "success for USPSA" first.

 

Forcing people into things they do not want to do is only going to piss them off.  Instead of screwing up the most popular division in USPSA, go figure out why the other ones are not popular.  And I go back full circle to the original question: why should all divisions have roughly equal participation?

You are probably right.  We should just allow 2011s with comps into CO, make major 150 pf, and eliminate classifications.  

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 minute ago, deerslayer said:

You are probably right.  We should just allow 2011s with comps into CO, make major 150 pf, and eliminate classifications.  

 

LOL nice strawman........instead of defending your points like anyone would do in a debate.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, deerslayer said:

You are probably right.  We should just allow 2011s with comps into CO, make major 150 pf, and eliminate classifications.  

 

He did not advocate for that, but great job at a strawman.

[deerslayer]

Double post

Edited May 18, 2022 by deerslayer

[deerslayer]

26 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

Why is balance between participation in divisions necessary?

Balance may prevent people who don’t shoot a certain division from arguing for the elimination of that division due to diminished participation.  Also, balance provides shooters with some competition in their preferred division/classification.  
 

26 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

What makes you think people who like CO for what it is now will shrug their shoulders and move on to some other unappealing division when what they like about CO is ruined?  I think it's more likely they'll say f*#k it I'll go do something else fun with my time and money.

I think I said that an insignificant number may possibly move.  I don’t think 15 would “ruin” CO.  If they quit USPSA because capacity changed from 23 to 15, they probably weren’t going to be long term members anyway.  

[ima45dv8]

Enough of posting about each other and not the topic.

That's what gets threads (particularly Rules discussions) locked.

[deerslayer]

59 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I can tell you for a fact that no matter what you do to Production, I'm not going back to it.  Nor am I moving to any iron sighted division nor to optics one where guns cost more than some of my rifles.  And I have some damned nice rifles.

You are one guy and can do whatever you like, but others may make different choices.  
 

59 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

You wonder if CO's success translates into success for the organization.  Well, define your idea of "success for USPSA" first.

Well, financial stability would probably be one of the things included in my definition.  Others might strictly define success as an increase in membership and/or revenue.  Has CO/140 increased either one?  I have no idea.  I do know that the last BOD meeting included some discussion about money problems.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by deerslayer

[RJH]

Maybe since carryops has cheaper guns and cheaper ammo than typical limited and open guns, people will have more money to spend on matches, thereby increasing uspsa's dollars

[Dazhi]

2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 I do not understand how using 140 mm mags makes a division, a division that does not have a soul, or a division that is not "good".

 

I find it hilarious that anyone thinks the increased mag capacity and red dots are killing Production, Revo, and Single Stack.  As technology progresses relics of the past die.  Advances of technology and the adoption of one particular caliber over all other calibers have a greater affect on division participation more than a mag capacity of just one division.  If you killed CO today is that going to bring back attendance to those divisions?  I highly doubt it.  No one is rushing out to buy Revos and Single Stack guns to replace their CO rigs.  Production might see a slight bump in numbers, but that division is on its way out as well.  

 

As for switching Production to 15 rounds, that is long overdue.  I highly doubt it will help participation in Production, but how about we allow people to fill up the mags for the guns they buy instead of restricting them.  In our area, new people showing up to the match are not shooting production.  Just dinosaurs who have been shooting it forever are shooting it.  

 

I don't think I was advocating for killing CO.  If changing 140mm to 15-round for CO is "killing CO", that proves the hi-cap nature made CO, not the dot.

 

Yes dots are the future, but - "future".  Technology today is no where close to make slide ride dots as reliable as iron.  Maybe some day in the future. 

 

CO did not become a thing until it got 140mm mag.

 

CO is not as shiny and easy as just putting a red dot on the slide.  I don't know if I am an isolated rare case.  I find keeping CO run flawlessly is a rather high maintenance task.  Granted I shot a lot of rounds, and I destroyed 20+ dots in the process.  All those hours I spent on extra maintenance just to keep the dot run, I could have been doing dry/live fire.   I am sure someone has shot 100k+ rounds without any screw/plate/red dot issues but I don't think that's common.  With iron sight, that is.  If iron minor gets 140mm, I will ditch CO for it in a heartbeat until I am old enough to see only a blurry front sight.   The super low maintenance/cost, minor PF and hi-cap will easily make it the most popular division, nevertheless a "bad" division without its soul.

 

140mm mag for a minor optic division is bad because it bleeds into limited/open and eats production.  It's the same thing if we introduce a 140mm minor iron division.  

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

40 minutes ago, Dazhi said:

 

 I find keeping CO run flawlessly is a rather high maintenance task.  Granted I shot a lot of rounds, and I destroyed 20+ dots in the process.  All those hours I spent on extra maintenance just to keep the dot run, I could have been doing dry/live fire.   I am sure someone has shot 100k+ rounds without any screw/plate/red dot issues but I don't think that's common.

 

 

Not 100K+, but just over 38K in two years without a single failure.

 

I bet if you made a division exactly like carry optics except irons only it would still not be as popular as CO.  At least not in my part of the county where CO outnumbers limited easily 2:1

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, deerslayer said:

I’ll go out on a limb and say I wish CO was 15 rounds.  First, it would be a unique capacity with a stage plan sometimes unlike any other division.  Second, it MIGHT reduce the number of CO shooters (although I doubt significantly).  Why could this be a good thing?  If people left CO for another division (as opposed to leaving USPSA), it might restore some needed balance to the divisions. 

wait, wut? intentionally make a division suck more so fewer people will shoot it?  that sounds pretty dumb if you say it out loud.

 

i dont think balance between divisions is needed.

[deerslayer]

16 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

wait, wut? intentionally make a division suck more so fewer people will shoot it?  that sounds pretty dumb if you say it out loud.

 

i dont think balance between divisions is needed.

Who said it would suck?  I think it would be more interesting.  I guess the 2011 guys might argue that CO would suck less if 2011s were allowed.  

Edited May 19, 2022 by deerslayer

[Johnny_Chimpo]

How many people who think CO needs to be changed actually shoot CO?  I know @Dazhi does.

 

Anyone else?

[deerslayer]

I don’t think I said CO has to change, but if it originally had 15 round mags and the weight limit had not been drastically increased, it might not have become welfare open.  I am completely against any change that potentially makes it more crowded (ex: allowing 2011s).   I am currently tinkering with a new Limited gun but yes, I do shoot CO.  

Edited May 19, 2022 by deerslayer

[Boomstick303]

12 hours ago, Dazhi said:

I don't think I was advocating for killing CO.

 

I do not think anyone said you were.

 

My point was if you got rid of CO all together that would not increase numbers in Production, Revo, and Single Stack divisions drastically. 

 

The future is here now.   While I agree that dots on slides are not completely up to snuff in regards to reliability, no one I know has ditched CO over this issue.  Has anyone you know ditched CO due to faulty dots? 

 

I am not advocating for 2011's in CO, (while Personally I would love it if it happen), I get keeping it as is currently.  I do not think the argument of reliability of guns has nothing to do with allowing them in any particular division.  Plus gun reliability has a lot more to do with the user and NOT the gun.  If you are lazy and do not care to learn about the specifics of the 1911 and 2011 platforms or keep you guns clean/maintained, you should probably stick with plastic guns.  I think we can all agree for the most part they just run.  

 

How about we just leave divisions alone for awhile.  With the exception of increasing Production to 15 rounds to match ISPC would be fine seeing how most pistols come with 15 round or larger magazines makes sense, but there is no need to change anything else in the immediate future.  

 

"Saving Production" is not a thing, much like saving Revo and Single Stack is not a thing.  People can advocate for some dreamed up rule change that will save it, but its a relic, much like Revo and Single Stack.  One day people will finally acknowledge this fact.  Participation numbers indicate this.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

3 hours ago, deerslayer said:

I am completely against any change that potentially makes it more crowded (ex: allowing 2011s).

 

 

What does it matter is it is more crowded?

[ddc]

17 hours ago, deerslayer said:

The Production purists will probably throw rocks at me, but I also think USPSA would benefit if Production went to 15.  More people would shoot it, a dying division might be saved, the new guy or casual competitor would have a good place for their Glock 17, and CO numbers may fall a bit.  All this would be good for USPSA.  

 

I don't have a problem with this. 

 

I think it would be worth a provisional change and see what the results are.

 

One side effect might be less threads pushing for "limited/minor"?

[RJH]

If the reasoning to allow 15 rounds in production is to match ipsc, are we going to allow race holsters in production as well? Because they allow them in ipsc. And shall we get rid of guns that are too awesome for production like a Glock 34, because they don't let them in in ipsc, unless the rules have changed and I don't know about it

[Racinready300ex]

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

If the reasoning to allow 15 rounds in production is to match ipsc, are we going to allow race holsters in production as well? Because they allow them in ipsc. And shall we get rid of guns that are too awesome for production like a Glock 34, because they don't let them in in ipsc, unless the rules have changed and I don't know about it

 

I'm pretty sure just about every production/co gun you see at a match is illegal in IPSC. So I agree that's would be a silly reason.

 

The biggest benefit in my mind to 15 is pretty much any reasonable gun you buy will come with 15 round mags. And you should be able to get by with as little as 3 of them. You don't need the +5 base pads to make 140's and you don't need 5 pouches for 10 round mags. But, you still have a little more capacity. 

 

Stage design moving toward more short and medium courses would probably help the lower capacity divisions while not hurting the high cap guys. In fact I think more shorter course make the game better anyway. MD's in our area who tried shorter courses for majors have been told by the AD to increase the round count. It seems like people really like 32 round stage with 10+ HF. Probably because it makes everyone feel like they are doing well.

[ltdmstr]

High round counts + short courses + dot + minor pf = hose fest.  Makes it fun for newbies and people that don't practice much.  Not so challenging for everyone else.

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

The biggest benefit in my mind to 15 is pretty much any reasonable gun you buy will come with 15 round mags. And you should be able to get by with as little as 3 of them. You don't need the +5 base pads to make 140's and you don't need 5 pouches for 10 round mags. But, you still have a little more capacity. 

 

If we are going to do this, I would rather just go with factory flush fit capacity. All the 9s seem to be within a round or so on capacity and then we don't have to count rounds as ROs

19 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Stage design moving toward more short and medium courses would probably help the lower capacity divisions while not hurting the high cap guys. In fact I think more shorter course make the game better anyway. MD's in our area who tried shorter courses for majors have been told by the AD to increase the round count. It seems like people really like 32 round stage with 10+ HF. Probably because it makes everyone feel like they are doing well.

 

Looks good on the gram 

[Sinister4]

"If we are going to do this, I would rather just go with factory flush fit capacity. All the 9s seem to be within a round or so on capacity and then we don't have to count rounds as ROs"

 

this or just be done with it and allow 140 mags in everything.....and while we are at it we should be able to shoot irons in CO if we want to.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Sinister4

[Racinready300ex]

30 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

If we are going to do this, I would rather just go with factory flush fit capacity. All the 9s seem to be within a round or so on capacity and then we don't have to count rounds as ROs

 

 

And that would be reasonable too. It's clear more people prefer hi-cap divisions. The draw back to this is again you'll end up needing/wanting to run new base pads springs and followers to pick up that extra round or two. Not really a deal breaker, but something to consider.

 

At that point you could just go to 140's, and the result is the same. 

 

 

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

And that would be reasonable too. It's clear more people prefer hi-cap divisions. The draw back to this is again you'll end up needing/wanting to run new base pads springs and followers to pick up that extra round or two. Not really a deal breaker, but something to consider.

 

At that point you could just go to 140's, and the result is the same. 

 

 

 

I got no issues with 140s either. Also have no issue with allowing irons and carry-ops like sinister suggested. But then again I don't care if they let 2011s in either LOL. The best people are going to win regardless of equipment, everybody else is just running for somewhere in the middle, equipment is really not as big a deal as we tend to try to make it most times. 

 

When you look at the overalls and you see a lot of times at majors a carry ops gun is winning HOA, or at least HOA of the pistols, that's when I start to figure most of this doesn't matter, and is academic as we're all really just shooting for fun anyway.