Still Praying Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 You know I can't help feeling that we may screw up something ROYALLY here. USPSA 3-Gun is growing fast and this could be a major throne in our sides if this happens. Remington could be a major sponser for matches and shooters alike. If we don't suport them, then why should they suport us? I'm not looking for brownies here or egg in my face. I'm just trying to look out for the sport. Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 You know I can't help feeling that we may screw up something ROYALLY here. USPSA 3-Gun is growing fast and this could be a major throne in our sides if this happens. Remington could be a major sponser for matches and shooters alike. If we don't suport them, then why should they suport us? I'm not looking for brownies here or egg in my face. I'm just trying to look out for the sport. Ronnie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There was some match written up in an issue of Front Sight that had a big-arse Remington logo cut out of plywood and used as a port wall for a shotgun stage. I don't think you're far off in your assessment. Beyond that, why piss of competitors? Why the hell should we require them to get beat up or reload or go searching for a different type of ammo, etc.? It's not like shotgun slugs lack power.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Beyond that, why piss of competitors? Why the hell should we require them to get beat up or reload or go searching for a different type of ammo, etc.? It's not like shotgun slugs lack power.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> HERE HERE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Praying Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 I beleave that was the Southeast Shotgun Chapionship in 2003 & 04. Yep Yep 16 round slug fest with Walmart deer slugs . I'm thinking about deer hunting with them just to see what they will do . Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still Praying Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 TMC if I don't see any deer can I try them on your goat? Sorry for the drift, I couldn't resist it . Ronnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Let's see, a "major rifle" must make 360 pf. Lets look at .308 ball ammo, I think we can all agree that is major. It has a pf of 420 ( 150 gr bullet @ 2800 ) now those piddly little "low recoil" slug only make 515 or so, boy is that weak funny thing about heavy projectiles, they just don't like to slow down. I saw a 300 lb ferral pig shot with those "weak" Remington low recoils and it had a good sized EXIT wound, shoulder to shoulder. Now, following some peoples thinking lets see what a "real slug" would do. Remington sluger 1 0unce @ 1500 or so has a pf of 648. Maybe that should be the major floor for shotgun, no more of those wimpy 1 1/8 ounce dove loads! lets have "real" shotgun loads, Express magnum 6's anyone? That ought to help the junior program!! The point is that every shotgun is different, as is every chrono. Yes we can taylor our rifle loads, and our pistol loads to make major for our particuilar firearm IF we reload. Now will we have to start reloading shotgun as well?? In the shot department there are many choices and finding one to make PF isn't hard, but when it comes to slugs there are really only two choices full on, or full "off" and as an example My Benelli runs the Remington "low recoils" to a PF of 524 as well as the Federal and Winchester, where as my gas gun wont. I see no point in penalising someone for factory ammo, when the selection is just to small. KURT MILLER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 We should go back to 16+ gauge => major and calibrate targets to 480/520 PF. If you shoot a 16+gauge you are major. If you protest a steel target's calibration (because it didn't go down for you) test it with a 480-520 PF load. If it goes down you are SOL. Having a 16+gauge rule makes the whole thing easier to run. No need to chrono. And having a 480-520 PF calibration standard... well takes care of the calibration of the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 when it comes to slugs there are really only two choices full on, or full "off" Exactly!-- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hostetter Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 I haven't shot any 3 gun in the last year so maybe my opinion doesn't count but it seems like everyone is complaining about having to follow the rules. I have competed in 3 gun since somewhere around 1988 and have always used full power slugs, 3 1/4 dram birdshot, and low recoil buck. I know a lot of people have built guns around the lightest loads they could buy or reload but I assumed they did so with the full knowledge that they might get chrono'ed and would just be SOL. Never understood it but hey, whatever floats your boat......... The fact that they can ( and based of the sanctioning level of the match, should) chrono everyone, I thought it was pretty generous of they to remind everyone that they would be. Maybe you can talk USPSA into scoring shotguns major/minor? If you want to play the game, you should be prepared to follow the rules...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 If you want to play the game, you should be prepared to follow the rules...... When the rules change after your gear was already legal and then the enforcement isn't done until several years downline and without adequate announcement, it brings to mind a term that I won't use as is, but note that it references an edible bird and excrement at the same time. BTW, Bob, I wonder if your "low recoil buck" makes the PF and is legal? Have you checked it, or are you just assuming it does (like a lot of us were until the last minute chrono news got us justifiably concerned)? BTW, BTW, I did not pick the softest load I could find. I picked a 3 Dram 1.125 OZ commercial load that was readily available in my area and the mfgr claimed does 1200 fps. That is not a light load, it's just not a super stout load. It will definitely make major in a recoil operated gun. I use a gas operated gun with lots of extra bleedoff devices. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3GunF1Guy Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 All of this crono thing may just be a moot point. Lets say they do start to crono and I shoot my birdshot over the crono and it reads 1050, 1150, 1025. The crono proccess could be protested becouse the cronos have not been calibrated NOT to read the wads. Is there any way to prove that it was not the wad being cronoed? Having shot many birdshot over the crono this does happen. For my own use I just throw out the reading I thing are too slow. I think the only true way to measure the speed of birdshot is to use a highspeed camera. This may also apply to slugs that have nonattached wads. Is the start sensor reading the front of the slug and the stop sensor reading the front of the wad, that has slowed down? Is there any way to prove it didn't? I have only shot Fiocchi areo slug that have attached wads over my crono so I don't know? Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Scott, you make a very compelling point concerning the validity of the chrono setup and the likelyhood that it will choke on us (pun intended). If the readings in Vegas show what I got last time I put some shot over my chrono (mid 11's, low 10's and high 9's all from the same ammo), they better have a lot of protest forms available at the chrono table ;-) I am doing a SG chrono session tomorrow. I will report back on my results. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted September 23, 2005 Author Share Posted September 23, 2005 i'll be chronoing sunday as well. anyone else notice a SG stage in vegas where the targets appear to be a ways out? last year in reno, there was one with steel all over the place, hidden in the sagebrush...many shots out to 20+ yds. glad i drug along some hi-base 6's, and i wouldn't doubt the one this year is similar (stage 11, i think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 drug along some hi-base 6's Come on Butch, you know a tighter choke is all you need ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) TMC if I don't see any deer can I try them on your goat? Sorry for the drift, I couldn't resist it . Ronnie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Only if he can find it.... last year in reno, there was one with steel all over the place, hidden in the sagebrush...many shots out to 20+ yds. glad i drug along some hi-base 6's, and i wouldn't doubt the one this year is similar (stage 11, i think). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My 3 dram 7.5's with an IC took that stuff down with ease. Test it some time. Shoot a claibrated popper from different distacnes and see what will take it down. You may be suprised Edited September 23, 2005 by TMC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted September 23, 2005 Author Share Posted September 23, 2005 TMC if I don't see any deer can I try them on your goat? Sorry for the drift, I couldn't resist it . Ronnie <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Only if he can find it.... last year in reno, there was one with steel all over the place, hidden in the sagebrush...many shots out to 20+ yds. glad i drug along some hi-base 6's, and i wouldn't doubt the one this year is similar (stage 11, i think). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My 3 dram 7.5's with an IC took that stuff down with ease. Test it some time. Shoot a claibrated popper from different distacnes and see what will take it down. You may be suprised <{POST_SNAPBACK}> done that-i have a 22" IC, so i like my chances better with the big stuff...last week in bend they had 2 poppers (one behind the other) hidden by a big steel donut-was about 20 yds out. decided to load a stick of 6's fer that last array and they went flying. watched some other guys wacking the donut with the lite stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted September 23, 2005 Author Share Posted September 23, 2005 drug along some hi-base 6's Come on Butch, you know a tighter choke is all you need ;-) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WTF is a choke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) All of this crono thing may just be a moot point. Lets say they do start to crono and I shoot my birdshot over the crono and it reads 1050, 1150, 1025. The crono proccess could be protested becouse the cronos have not been calibrated NOT to read the wads. Is there any way to prove that it was not the wad being cronoed? Having shot many birdshot over the crono this does happen. For my own use I just throw out the reading I thing are too slow. I think the only true way to measure the speed of birdshot is to use a highspeed camera. This may also apply to slugs that have nonattached wads. Is the start sensor reading the front of the slug and the stop sensor reading the front of the wad, that has slowed down? Is there any way to prove it didn't? I have only shot Fiocchi areo slug that have attached wads over my crono so I don't know?Scott <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It might be worth asking Charles Hardy of CED if the chrono measures the shadow on the leading or trailing edge, and how it handles the case of multiple shadows. If the chrono uses a leading edge trigger and only counts the first item across, the wad won't be measured. Edited September 23, 2005 by Rob Boudrie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 crono'd slugs yesterday, in two different Benellis, one with a 18.5 inch barrel, the other with a 26 inch barrel that is ported and comped. I also crono'd rifles and pistols with the crono set up just to make sure I was getting good data. (a side note, I find with my crono anyway, that if there is direct sunlight shining into the sensors, it will come up with some crazy readings, so I make sure the sensors are shaded...) Remington Reduced Recoil 18.5 barrel - 522 26 barrel - 535 Federal Reduced Recoil 18.5 barrel - 548 26 barrel - 580 Both the Remington and Federal say 1200 velocity on the boxes, but the Federal were notably hotter; 1255 out of the short barrel, and 1328 out of the 26 inch barrel. also checked Winchester 7.5 AA Lite Target loads in just the short barrel, they came in at 565, kinda surprised me that the lite load was so hot. and, also checked Fiochi spreaders, the reduced power loads. they were 590 in the short barrel, and 610 in the long. just some interesting data FYI... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 My 3 dram 7.5's with an IC took that stuff down with ease. Test it some time. Shoot a claibrated popper from different distacnes and see what will take it down. You may be suprised At the 02 Nats in Vegas, on that loooonng shotgun stage with the heavy steel waaay out there, my 3Dram 1.125 7.5's through a mod choke took it all down with ease and aplomb. The year before on a similar stage at the 01 Nats, I used an IC with high base 4 and in retrospect, the 7.5's through a mod choke worked significantly better in that I was waiting less time to see the steel react than I was with the less dense hefty shot pattern. A little more aiming as a tradeoff for more authority on hefty steel with less recoil, works for me. BTW Butch, I made the mistake of not centering my shot column on the donut for my first shot last week at area 1 and half the shot column bounced off it. When I took a second single shot that was centered, each popper fell just fine. In retrospect, I shoulda done what Kelly Beale did, doublebang it right from the start and then again for the second one ;-( -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Thats good data Rigger, Thanks. It means that most Benelli shooters have nothing to worry about. The gas guns however, are gonna run the same stuff slower due to the variability of porting and gas bleedoff's. I will be posting some gas breather results from my 11-87 after tomorrow, but I only have the Federal low recoils available so if anyone will be at RRGC tomorrow and has some Rem low recoils, bring em on by. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 I believe Stage 10 has a point count error. There are 9 papers worth 90 points, 1 flasher worth 5 points and 6 flashers worth 15 points each (PP2 is an activator). That totals 185. Did I miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 It might be worth asking Charles Hardy of CED if the chrono measures the shadow on the leading or trailing edge, and how it handles the case of multiple shadows. If the chrono uses a leading edge trigger and only counts the first item across, the wad won't be measured. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> From looking at chrono skyscreen output on an oscilliscope, there's only a small, rounded dip, so I'd bet almost all of them use a threshold detector on the leading edge of that dip. Exactly what caused the dip and where that threshold is will vary by chrono, light levels, bullet shape and so on. Which multiplies the problem for shot. There's not much point using the trailing edge, given the variables on the leading edge, I'm not sure it would tell you anything useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey QuicksDraw! Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 Rigger, You are the man. My chrono went kaput and I was sweating it. Thanks a lot! Stew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3GunF1Guy Posted September 23, 2005 Share Posted September 23, 2005 I believe Stage 10 has a point count error. There are 9 papers worth 90 points, 1 flasher worth 5 points and 6 flashers worth 15 points each (PP2 is an activator). That totals 185. Did I miss something? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I get 9 paper (90 points) 2 pepper poppers (10 points) and 6 flashers at 15 points each (90 points). To me that adds up to 190 points. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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